Article Re: Mental Health of Latter-day Saints

[Teancum]

On 7/11/2023 at 4:22 PM, smac97 said:

No.

But Spencer W. Kimball died 38 years ago, and Miracle of Forgiveness was published 54 years ago.  And here we are not talking about Pres. Kimball apologizing, but the Church doing so.  A call for institutional apologies (because, candidly, one will never be "enough," as the goalposts will immediately shift) in this context seems really attenuated.

And, again, such public institutional apologies will not be sufficient.  Ever.

No.

But nebulous apologies from the institutional Church would, as would endless goalpost shiftings.  I'd take that to the bank.

Just look at Pres. Uchtdorf's acknowledgment.  Ten years ago.  Not enough.  Gotta get more specific.  Gotta publicly denounce a man who has been dead for nearly four decades.  And then move on to the next "hurt."  And then the next, and then next, and the next . . . ad infinitum.  

At least our Catholic friends stopped with only one Cadaver Synod.  We as a Church would be setting up virtual equivalents of that.  Every day of the week.  And it still wouldn't be enough.  

Again, I am leery of "collective guilt" sorts of things, particularly in the context of collective apologies.  Not only are they unlikely to satiate those calling for them, they are potentially problematic from a doctrinal/moral point of view. 

Individual forgiveness is not supposed to be contingent on the transgressor's apology or remorse or whatever. 

Collective/institutional guilt is not a thing.

Apologizing to bystanders is unreasonable.

Acceding to this expectation seems like a recipe for navel-gazing (endless apologies) and goalpost-shifting (endless declarations that such apologies are insufficient).

I would want some information, yes.  I'm not going to apologize for something I did not do.  Or for something that a family member did decades ago.

If a stranger comes to me and demands that I apologize for something that a family member did decades ago, I would find that strange.

The analogy is getting too attenuated.

I respectfully disagree.  

To resist notions of collective guilt is not "obtuse."  

To resist unreasonable and attenuated demands for apologies for nebulous claims of "harm" substantially attenuated by actor and time is not "obtuse."

To anticipate such demands becoming endless (because one will not suffice) is not "obtuse."

To anticipate such endless demands being paired with endless goalpost shifting (because we're already seeing that vis-à-vis Pres. Uchtdorf's comments) is not "obtuse."

If I offend someone, it is my duty to seek their forgiveness and make amends.  In private.  A public apology for a private offense is, in my view, an apology "to be seen of men" that starts to sound pharisaical.

Again, accountability by whom?  And to whom?

Because I don't understand your position.  And because I am not being obtuse.  But you have no obligation to elaborate.

Thanks,

-Smac

Never mind.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Teancum

[gopher]

On 7/10/2023 at 11:29 AM, california boy said:

I think what you are forgetting or ignoring is the culture MoF solidified  in the Church that is still a part of how members feel about LGBT people.  It clearly instituted the idea that being gay was caused by their own behavior.  It also reinforced the idea that if they just prayed enough, hard enough, knocked at the door until their fingers bleed, then God would somehow change them to become straight.  When I came out to my family there was clearly an attitude that I just needed to white knuckle it though life and I would be fine.  If I didn't do that, then it was my own fault I was gay and the way they could show the consequence of that is to not allow me to be a part of the family UNTIL I was willing to do that.  

There is clearly an attitude prevalent in the Church today that the best thing a person can do if they are gay is to white knuckle their entire life.  A life where love is not possible.  A life where you are sentenced to being completely alone without companionship or even dating.  No family.  No attraction to anyone.  Just stay in this limbo condition until you die.  Then if you managed to make it through all of that, you will be given a woman to spend eternity with.  YEAH!  Not a particular rewarding promise for someone who is gay.

Apparently neither the church leaders nor anyone else understands why anyone is gay so we are left to speculate.  I don't know how much contact you have with members of the church, but I think attitudes towards gays has changed significantly in the past few years.  Clearly more needs to be done.  It might help improve it more if you can show believers where in the scriptures God accepts gay relationships and behaviors.  It seems He either condemns or ignores them.  We don't know what God intends for gays who are willing to keep His commandments, but can we trust that He will make it right in the end?  I don't know that that will look like so why speculate that it will be horrible?

On 7/10/2023 at 11:29 AM, california boy said:

For some, it seems like the best solution is suicide.  Just get it over with and God will fix everything when you are dead.  Why go through a lifetime of suffering and feeling of worthlessness, a complete disappointment and embarrassment to the family?  God will understand why you did what you did.

yeah, I feel strongly about presenting that as an acceptable response.  Why plant the idea of suicide in anyone's head?

On 7/10/2023 at 11:29 AM, california boy said:

For others, what is the point of trying to stay within the parameters the Church demands.  It seems like the only way this ends up is going to a lower kingdom anyway.  And isn't that where those who you actually want to be with are anyway?  So you just take the Celestial Kingdom off the table and live your life that is full of happiness and  love and companionship.  "Men are, that they might have joy".  If God thinks you are unworthy to live with Him, then just accept that and live in one of the lesser kingdoms.  We have already learned to accept the fact that our family thinks we are unworthy to live with them and our lives turned out just fine.  We found happiness anyway.

Where did you hear that the lower kingdom is for those who tried to stay within the parameters the church demands?  I once heard someone claim the Terrestrial kingdom will include those that didn't do their hometeaching.  I think it's safe to ignore any speculation about the afterlife.  The church teaches that exaltation is worth any sacrifice.   I think you make a good argument that gays are required to make a greater sacrifice when it comes to relationships here in this life.

[gopher]

On 7/12/2023 at 8:26 PM, Calm said:

Now I got to go back and try and find what triggered the thought, lol.  I do remember I didn’t think you were being dismissive, just that it might come across that way to someone for some reason.

Edit:  found it…

While I read it as what you clarified later as they could have had influenced behaviour and you were only denying a one to one correspondence (comments were the only reason or the primary cause of suicide) because that was how I interpreted your “more complicated than that” as well as your usual commentary style, someone who is unfamiliar with you and only sees such a comment in a very limited context might read the above as dismissive of any impact due to the “don’t believe….are responsible” and the “nearly identical”.  If someone isn’t aware of what you mean by “complicated” (which I assume means has many different things that contribute to an individual becoming a risk, such as biology; home, school, church and other environments; internal and external dialogues; possible substance abuse, rather than just a few variables easily discovered), since you aren’t saying anything about what is responsible and only what isn’t, it could be read as dismissive.

Having said that, I am very cautious with this topic because I have known people—including myself who most saw as capable (I was) and fully supported for my needs (I wasn’t plus it was not a problem that could be solved, just gotten used to)—who were experiencing suicidal ideation who were hiding it or who were desperate and they felt they weren’t being taken serious as what others were saying was unintentionally adding to the heaviness of it all because they felt their pleas were dismissed or ignored and instead weight was being added to the wrong side of the scales making the impossible balancing act even more precarious.  There is a low chance imo in this context of your minimal misstep (my opinion it was a misstep, but may be wrong) having any significant negative effect.  I point this kind of stuff out as much to remind myself as others to take extra care because developing a habit of care will help most when we are presented with a crisis (though hopefully that day never comes) and our brains freeze up in the face of the immense pain you see the other carrying (also something experienced by me, my daughter’s response to my efforts to support her was “it sounds like you think this is a good thing!” because I focused on how her crisis could motivate us to change our lives for the better instead of letting her feel okay about grieving for what she had lost and just being there while she worked through being afraid of the certain pain to come that she did not believe she could endure).

added:  I think Nehor’s later implied paraphrase  was an example of how I saw your comment as being potentially misread as dismissing any relevancy of past comments to people’s experience of suicidal ideation.

 

Thanks, that explains it.  When responding to Nehor I often tend to adopt his tone since I figure that's how he likes to communicate.  He misunderstood my post and thought I was being dismissive of those who struggle with suicidal thoughts.  Instead I was being dismissive of those who weaponize suicides against their opponents without realizing the harm they can cause those struggling.  In this case, it's being used to attack the church.  I admit it's effective in stirring up outrage against the church.  I remember the reaction after the false claim came out that the Nov 2015 policy caused many gay LDS teens to end their lives.   I've also seen it done by politicians who claim there will be increased LGBT suicides if their legislation isn't passed.  I think it's sending the wrong message to very vulnerable people that suicide is an expected response.

I am not dismissive of those struggling with suicidal thoughts, no matter what may have triggered them.  My own experiences (which I won't share here) have led me to take them very seriously.  I hope anyone who is struggling to shake off those thoughts seeks professional help IMMEDIATELY!  I don't believe many family and friends are equipped to adequately help someone who going through this.  I've read estimates that 90% of suicides are by those suffering from some type of psychiatric disorder.  The risk decreases a lot when treated by professionals.

[gopher]

On 7/13/2023 at 1:16 AM, The Nehor said:

How about we tackle the bullying, rejection, discrimination, and exclusion instead?

If we just don’t do anything to make them think suicide is an option they will just live lives filled with suicide level pain? I think the idea of suicide will pop up on its own.

I spoke to a young guy earlier. He realized he is queer. He now knows the love of his family is at least partially and quite possibly mostly conditional on keeping this secret. He is scared and an emotional mess. I would be surprised if he hasn’t considered suicide and I don’t think he is thinking of suicide role models. He more likely wants some escape from the whole situation. I listened and tried to give him as much hope as I could. 

Sure, let's all join together to condemn bullying, rejection, discrimination, and exclusion.  Those things have no place in our society, our churches, and our homes.

Have you recommended professional help for any of the people with suicidal thoughts you have been counseling?  Or do you feel qualified to provide that help?

[The Nehor]

21 hours ago, gopher said:

Sure, let's all join together to condemn bullying, rejection, discrimination, and exclusion.  Those things have no place in our society, our churches, and our homes.

Have you recommended professional help for any of the people with suicidal thoughts you have been counseling?  Or do you feel qualified to provide that help?

I am not qualified to provide this help but many of the people I talk to don’t have access to professional help and even if they did their parents would likely find out about that help with potentially tragic results. To be clear I am not providing specialized help. It is mostly an affirmation that they aren’t the monster they see themselves as being, that it can and often does get better, urge them to plan to eventually get economic and social independence to get out of toxic environments, and if your physical and/or emotional safety are threatened where you are to hide and lie as best you can.

[MustardSeed]

On 7/14/2023 at 2:53 AM, gopher said:

Why plant the idea of suicide in anyone's head?

I’m not sold that this is a thing. It might be.  But for example, I operate from the place that allows me to ask people directly when they’re depressed if they are suicidal. My belief is that asking them is not going to “plant ideas“. If you are, you are, if you’re not, you’re not kind of deal. 
It has not steered me wrong in the past. I think it’s important to talk about suicidality.

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m not sold that this is a thing. It might be.  But for example, I operate from the place that allows me to ask people directly when they’re depressed if they are suicidal. My belief is that asking them is not going to “plant ideas“. If you are, you are, if you’re not, you’re not kind of deal. 
It has not steered me wrong in the past. I think it’s important to talk about suicidality.

Recently watched a segment on the local news about a woman talking about her husband's suicide and she explicitly mentions suicide all the time around her children and family and how we shouldn't hide the fact. I guess this is to somehow make it okay for suicidal people to speak out about how they're actually thinking about it.

Found an article about her story here:

https://cbs2iowa.com/news/nation-world/utah-mom-breaks-taboos-talks-openly-about-husbands-suicide-in-hopes-to-save-others-denny-dani-bates-grave-public-health-issue-alarming-statistics-societal-stigma-norms-mental-illness

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Tacenda

[gopher]

On 7/15/2023 at 3:55 AM, The Nehor said:

I am not qualified to provide this help but many of the people I talk to don’t have access to professional help and even if they did their parents would likely find out about that help with potentially tragic results. To be clear I am not providing specialized help. It is mostly an affirmation that they aren’t the monster they see themselves as being, that it can and often does get better, urge them to plan to eventually get economic and social independence to get out of toxic environments, and if your physical and/or emotional safety are threatened where you are to hide and lie as best you can.

I think that's great what you are doing.  I thought it was enough for me to be compassionate, willing to listen, and do lots of research to help out someone last year struggling with severe suicidal thoughts.  I was wrong.  Fortunately, it didn't end tragically, but it took professional help and divine intervention.

[gopher]

21 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m not sold that this is a thing. It might be.  But for example, I operate from the place that allows me to ask people directly when they’re depressed if they are suicidal. My belief is that asking them is not going to “plant ideas“. If you are, you are, if you’re not, you’re not kind of deal. 
It has not steered me wrong in the past. I think it’s important to talk about suicidality.

For some reason I can't edit my original post to clarify.

I absolutely agree we need to be more open about talking about suicide.  I don't see any harm if asking someone if you suspect they are feeling suicidal.  I meant I disagree with suggesting to someone that they should feel suicidal because of a given reason.  And I disagreed with the reasons CB gave because they are based on what I consider incorrect and incomplete doctrines of the afterlife.  I don't think it's helpful to suggest that suicide is a logical consequence of whatever we are going through.

Since LGBT are at a higher risk of suicide, extra attention should be given by parents, family, and friends to make sure they are ok.  Some other high risk groups are drug/alcohol abusers and sexual abuse victims.  I   agree it's important that we don't run away from having these difficult conversations about suicide.  My advice to other non-professionals is to make sure you are strong enough since these conversations can be incredibly draining.

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

I think that's great what you are doing.  I thought it was enough for me to be compassionate, willing to listen, and do lots of research to help out someone last year struggling with severe suicidal thoughts.  I was wrong.  Fortunately, it didn't end tragically, but it took professional help and divine intervention.

I lost a client to suicide once.  Unfortunately I fell for something- he was getting better. 
Sometimes when suicidal folks make the decision, they feel tremendous relief and so they get energy, they appear lighter, etc.  He skipped a session and had an appointment with a train instead.  I’m still devastated by it years later.  

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I lost a client to suicide once.  Unfortunately I fell for something- he was getting better. 
Sometimes when suicidal folks make the decision, they feel tremendous relief and so they get energy, they appear lighter, etc.  He skipped a session and had an appointment with a train instead.  I’m still devastated by it years later.  

I can vouch for this, a gentlemen whom was loved by everyone, had depression and was taking meds for it w/o most people even knowing it. But the night before he shot himself out in a field, he'd walked up to me and probably everyone and he was even more happy than I'd ever seen him. We weren't real close but he'd walked up to me and asked how I was and really made me feel wonderful, he had such a light and happiness about him. Like he'd finally resigned to give up the fight of depression I guess. Such a sad sad day when he passed.

[The Nehor]

25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I can vouch for this, a gentlemen whom was loved by everyone, had depression and was taking meds for it w/o most people even knowing it. But the night before he shot himself out in a field, he'd walked up to me and probably everyone and he was even more happy than I'd ever seen him. We weren't real close but he'd walked up to me and asked how I was and really made me feel wonderful, he had such a light and happiness about him. Like he'd finally resigned to give up the fight of depression I guess. Such a sad sad day when he passed.

This is common. It is also a risk when you first start taking anti-depression meds. You are depressed and resigned and okay with dying but don’t have the energy to do it. Then you get on the medication and before they start enabling you to improve your long-term outlook they often give you energy which includes the energy to actually act on suicidal thoughts.

I can definitely see the decision to commit suicide would have lightened my mood when I am depressed. I have never gotten that far so far.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

I think that's great what you are doing.  I thought it was enough for me to be compassionate, willing to listen, and do lots of research to help out someone last year struggling with severe suicidal thoughts.  I was wrong.  Fortunately, it didn't end tragically, but it took professional help and divine intervention.

What little I do is not enough but in many cases professional help is not available and divine intervention is fickle and unpredictable.

[gopher]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I lost a client to suicide once.  Unfortunately I fell for something- he was getting better. 
Sometimes when suicidal folks make the decision, they feel tremendous relief and so they get energy, they appear lighter, etc.  He skipped a session and had an appointment with a train instead.  I’m still devastated by it years later.  

That was this last experience for me.  I've lost others where we didn't see it coming until it was too late. This person wasn't angry or sad, didn't blame anyone or anything, and talked openly about suicide, even setting the date and requested speakers for the funeral.  Also refused professional help for a long time because they felt at peace with the decision.  I've never felt so helpless before.

[The Nehor]

On 7/14/2023 at 4:53 AM, gopher said:

Apparently neither the church leaders nor anyone else understands why anyone is gay so we are left to speculate.  I don't know how much contact you have with members of the church, but I think attitudes towards gays has changed significantly in the past few years.  Clearly more needs to be done.  It might help improve it more if you can show believers where in the scriptures God accepts gay relationships and behaviors.  It seems He either condemns or ignores them.  We don't know what God intends for gays who are willing to keep His commandments, but can we trust that He will make it right in the end?  I don't know that that will look like so why speculate that it will be horrible?

He either condemns them or ignores them.

Can we trust that He will make it right in the end?

These two are not completely contradictory but they don’t work well together in inspiring the trust in the second statement. It doesn’t help that the speculations God’s servants often offer as how it will be made right range from ignorance to stuff that is often horrifying.

[manol]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

[God] either condemns [gay relationships] or ignores them.

This is only true of God as filtered through a lens of unloving beliefs, whether they originate in religion or elsewhere.

Take away the filters and God's love really is unconditional.

In my opinion.

Edited July 16, 2023 by manol

[MustardSeed]

22 hours ago, manol said:

This is only true of God as filtered through a lens of unloving beliefs, whether they originate in religion or elsewhere.

Take away the filters and God's love really is unconditional.

In my opinion.

I also view God this way.  Unfortunately I had to find my way there. 

[manol]

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I also view God this way.  Unfortunately I had to find my way there. 

In my opinion, at some point in the journey, "finding your own way" (which can be quite different from what you have been taught and have trusted in all your life) is part of the plan.  I don't think the Church is supposed to be perfect and have all the answers.  Imo sometimes the Church accomplishes its God-given mission (the progression of souls) by being imperfect and thereby triggering "finding your own way." 

Edited July 17, 2023 by manol