Article Re: Mental Health of Latter-day Saints

[smac97]

Here (from the Deseret News) :

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What 18 years of research tells us about the mental health of Latter-day Saints
Findings are promising, but there is more work to be done

By W. Justin Dyer, Daniel K Judd, Megan Gale and Hunter Gibson Finlinson |  Jun 20, 2023, 9:00pm MDT

Research studies on the mental health of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can help us come to a better understanding of “things as they really are.”

This quote is from Jacob 4:13 - "Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old."

I have always liked that verse.

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Both positive and negative outcomes have been reported that require serious attention. The data can help us understand where problems exist and how we can best help those in need. At the same time, we must be wise as we evaluate these studies. 

I appreciate this perspective.  It is one that has been growing in the Church for some time now.  We need to evaluate ourselves as we are just as much, if not more so, than as we could or should be. 

We also should not reflexively acquiesce to narrative depictions of us, either from without or within:

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It goes without saying that research that isn’t done well — and the unreliable data that result from poorly done studies — create phantoms that distract us from making progress. This is also true for the misinterpretation of reliable data. For instance, statistics about Utah are often used as proxy for statistics about Latter-day Saints. This is unfortunate, given the mental health of the citizens of Utah appears to have far more to do with region than religion. To understand Latter-day Saints, research on Latter-day Saints is required.

This is an important point.  Using data about Utahns as a convenient proxy for data about the Latter-day Saints and/or the Church just doesn't work.  

The above link is to an article entitled "Sexuality, religion, and mental health."  It is worth a read.

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In a recent devotional at Brigham Young University, one of our team members, Justin Dyer, described an article we recently published that reported a review of the last 18 years of research on the mental health of Latter-day Saints. This research helps us have a more accurate understanding of the mental health of Latter-day Saints. Here are some key finding{s}.

The findings are pretty interesting.

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Substance use/abuse

It’s not surprising that research consistently finds Latter-day Saints less likely to use alcohol, tobacco or illicit drugs than the general population. Given that using these substances is tied to impaired physical and mental health, avoiding these is certainly a benefit for Latter-day Saints.

This is not really a surprise, nor should it be.  The next bit merits attention:

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Depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts

Studies typically find Latter-day Saints lower in depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts when compared to other religious groups and those of no religion. It appears one reason Latter-day Saint youth are less likely to experience suicidal thoughts and depression is because of their (on average) stronger family connections and less substance use.

Both of these are attributable to the teachings of the Church, and I am glad of that.

The downside is also somewhat attributable to the teachings of the Church, and this is where we can improve:

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However, Latter-day Saints who have unhealthy perfectionism, have legalistic attitudes about grace, or feel that God has abandoned them are more likely to experience depression.

Perfectionism

Two types of perfectionism are often used in research. The first is adaptive perfectionism, which includes attitudes that lead individuals to excel in healthy ways — that is, striving for one’s best. The second is maladaptive perfectionism which includes attitudes that create fear and anxiety about performance — that is, feeling the need to be perfect lest others look down on you.

Back in 2015 I posted some comments about an article discussing the above-described "adaptive perfectionism" and "maladaptive perfectionism" phenomena:

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“You’re such a perfectionist!” 

It’s a phrase many Latter-day Saints are familiar with. It’s something I’ve been told most of my life. Though it’s often said in a joking way, there’s no denying the negative connotation that comes with the word “perfectionist.” And in a church that strives for perfection and has high expectations, members frequently find themselves coming up short, which can lead to discouragement, dissatisfaction, and stress.

But according to Professors G. E. Kawika Allen and Kenneth T. Wang, perfectionism, or striving for high standards, is not the problem. 

In a recent study focusing specifically on Latter-day Saints, Allen and Wang surveyed around 267 highly active members in Utah. In their study, they asked questions about anything from satisfaction with life to inward and outward religious commitment. They ended up identifying three main groups. 

The first group, 22% of people surveyed, were not perfectionists, that is, they don’t believe they hold themselves to high personal standards. The rest were considered perfectionists, but had an interesting split among them – a new type of perfectionism. Of the perfectionist group, 30% were classified as what Allen and Wang labeled maladaptive perfectionism, while 47% were classified as adaptive.

“Adaptive perfectionists are likely to feel acceptance of themselves and their efforts, even when they fail or fall short of the high personal standards they have set for themselves,” their original study release explains. “They were also more inwardly and outwardly committed to their LDS faith, which supports previous peer-reviewed findings that religious commitment plays a role in achieving better psychological health.” That means adaptive perfectionism is actually healthy. 

However, not all types of perfectionism are healthy. “Individuals in the maladaptive group experienced less satisfaction with life, often feeling depressed or anxious. They showed increased scrupulosity, which is the fear of sinful behavior and punishment from God.”

Though Allen admits that circumstances limited their study largely to young adults in their early to mid-20s, it seems an appropriate population to study—it’s a time of life when there is perhaps the most pressure to live up to high “perfectionist” expectations of missions, marriage, and education. 

When asked how the study could help Latter-day Saints who struggle with maladaptive perfectionism, Allen explained that, while he doesn’t have all the answers or solutions, the study can still be helpful. “Maladaptive perfectionists are those folks who have high standards and high expectations for themselves, but when they are unable to meet those expectations, whether it’s school, family, or personal expectations, they struggle a little more with feelings of failure, feelings of not being good enough, disappointment, discouragement, and they feel down about themselves because they’re not able to meet those high standards.” 

On the other hand, adaptive perfectionists know how to strive for the best, but accept if they fail. “The only difference between the maladaptive and adaptive is the fact that, yes, they have high standards, but they don’t beat themselves up if they’re not able to meet every high standard and expectation they have for themselves.” Allen goes on to explain that adaptive perfectionists are more resilient to discouragement and create a “buffer” for themselves if they fail —allowing themselves a chance to simply try again and again and again and do their best. 

This is good stuff to keep in mind.  Back to the first article:

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While studies are yet to be done that compare Latter-day Saint perfectionism to perfectionism in other religious groups, one study of Latter-day Saints categorized 47.2% of those sampled as adaptive perfectionists, with 30.3% as maladaptive perfectionists, and 22.5% nonperfectionists. Unsurprisingly, maladaptive perfectionists had lower self-esteem and higher anxiety about God.

I suspect "maladaptive perfectionism" (having "fear and anxiety about performance — that is, feeling the need to be perfect lest others look down on you" and "struggl{ing} a little more with feelings of failure, feelings of not being good enough, disappointment, discouragement, and {feeling} down about themselves because they’re not able to meet those high standards") is often a contributing factor in estrangement from the Restored Gospel.  As I noted beck in 2015:

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I think this sort of thinking {maladaptive perfectionism} is corrosive and unhealthy for us as individuals and groups.  I also think it becomes considerably more harmful when these unreasonable and untenable "high standards and high expectations" are imposed on individuals from someone else - like a parent or church leader. 

And maybe when they are imposed on us by critics, particularly those who previously were previously part of us.  When such a person publicly disparages and faults us because we have not reached a very high standard with 100% success and precision, when we have not, as you put it, "totally prevent{ed} abuse," well, that sort of frustrating.  We are not perfect.  We are not utterly successful in all that we do.  But we are trying very hard.  But critics and their unreasoned demands of absolute perfection are disheartening. 

It is stuff like this, this relentless faultfinding, the casual and glib dismissal of the substantial of the efforts of the Church and its members with responses like "Ok.  So?", that make me fairly wary about taking many of critics seriously.  Their critiques along these lines are unreasonable, and very often lack good faith and good will.  No matter what the Latter-day Saints do, an angle can always be drawn so as to find fault.

Back to the first article:

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Body esteem

Perhaps a surprise to many, four different studies reported that Latter-day Saints have better body image (body esteem) and fewer eating disorders than the other religious groups with whom they were compared. And the more connected Latter-day Saints are with their religious beliefs and practices, the better their attitudes about their bodies. In a world saturated with AI-enhanced body images, regular reprieves — where they are reminded that they are children of heavenly parents, and have a divine nature and eternal destiny — seem to be beneficial.

However, local church culture may make a difference. When church or community cultures are perceived as creating high pressure to conform in unhealthy ways, women’s body esteem may be lower.

I would understand this as affecting women and girls.  I would be curious as to how it affects men and boys as well.

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LGBTQ Latter-day Saints

Research findings show that Latter-day Saints who identify as LGBTQ (used here to denote all sexual and gender minority experiences), on average, have just as good and typically better mental health than LGBTQ individuals of other religious traditions or those who describe themselves as not believing in God.

"{J}ust as good and typically better mental health than LGBTQ individuals of other religious traditions or those who describe themselves as not believing in God."

Huh.

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What is emerging from more detailed research is that identity conflict is related to decreased mental health. For LGBTQ individuals, being conflicted about their Latter-day Saint identity may be of particular concern. Resolving identity conflicts is likely key for LGBTQ individuals to remain connected with God and the church in healthy ways.

I have been giving this a lot of thought lately, but I have not specifically linked it to the phrase/concept of "identity conflict," described here:

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Identity conflict is defined as a sense of discrepancy between the beliefs, norms and expectations held by an individual (Horton et al., 2014).

And here:

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{We define "identity conflict" as} perceived incompatibilities between two or more of an individual’s identity domains.

My understanding of the term "identity domain" is that it refers to a specific area or aspect of an individual's identity that is related to a particular social group, role, or context.  (If anyone could point me to a broadly-accepted source for defining this term, that would be appreciated.)

As I understand it, "identity conflict" refers to situations where a person experiences a sense of anxiety, struggle, tension, etc. arising from a discrepancy, contradiction, or clash between his different "identity domains."  A person with an "identity domain" as a Latter-day Saint as well as an "identity domain" of, say, a gay person may find himself torn between competing demands, expectations, or values associated with the actual and/or perceived differences in the social contexts, roles, or cultures of those two domains.

As the first article above notes, "{r}esolving identity conflicts is likely key for LGBTQ individuals to remain connected with God and the church in healthy ways."  I think resolving such conflicts can become difficult, or even impossible, when we conflate the "identity domain" (here, having same-sex attraction) with manifested behaviors associated with that domain (engaging in homosexual conduct).  

Back to the first article:

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Similarly, there have been some comparisons between LGBTQ individuals who are current members of the church and others who are former Latter-day Saints. Some studies report that LGBTQ individuals who remain active members of The Church of Jesus Christ have better mental health those who leave the church. Other studies report former Latter-day Saints have better mental health than other LGBTQ members of the church who remain active. The more rigorous studies report either no difference between current or former LGBTQ Latter-day Saints or that current LGBTQ Latter-day Saints had better mental health. This research initiative is just beginning and there is much to disentangle. Our best research and clinical work, as well as empathy and understanding, are needed in this area.

I appreciate this summary.  "The jury is still out," as it were.

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Going forward

Although research on mental health and religion is growing, there are many limitations. We need more research tracking Latter-day Saints over time to more clearly understand causality. We also need more research that uses better sampling.

I hope BYU and other organizations help in conducting such additional research.

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Existing research often uses “convenience sampling” where the survey is posted online, and individuals can pass along the survey to their friends. This kind of research typically results in biased samples. It’s worth noting that studies using more rigorous sampling techniques typically find better outcomes for active Latter-day Saints. That is, the more rigorous the study, the more protective being an active Latter-day Saint appears to be.

Huh.  That's an interesting assessment.  I would like to see it explored and explained more.

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What is also sorely lacking are more diverse samples; most studies are done with samples drawn from individuals living in Utah. Research on the international church would benefit from the use of international samples. 

Yep.  "In Utah" is not interchangeable with "being a Latter-day Saint."

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Research on Latter-day Saints does counter many assumptions of Latter-day Saints having poor mental health. Consistent with the research on religion and mental health for all faiths, Latter-day Saints are typically found to have just as good, if not better, mental health than other groups (including those of no religious affiliation). And the more religious Latter-day Saint are, the better their mental health.

This is an important point when considering online (and often anonymous) narratives and declarations about how living as an observant and faithful Latter-day Saint is injurious to mental health.  Broadly speaking, that does not seem to be the case.

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Still, many Latter-day Saints struggle with their mental health, and we need to be as understanding and helpful as possible. 

Yes.  Many former Latter-day Saints also struggle in this way, and also deserve understanding and help.

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We should never assume Latter-day Saints struggling with mental health issues are simply not living their religion. Nor should we assume that giving increased attention to religious faith and activity will solve all mental health problems. However, research does suggest that continuing with these practices in healthy ways will benefit those who are faithful. Latter-day Saints can recognize the benefits embedded within the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ are both temporal and eternal. At the same time, there is still a lot of work we need to do to address mental health issues with children, adults, communities and nations. While there may be reason to pat ourselves on the back, we should also push ourselves forward. 

"{G}iving increased attention to religious faith and activity ... {and} continuing with these practices in healthy ways {within the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ} will benefit those who are faithful ... {in ways that} are both temporal and eternal."

"{T}here is still a lot of work we need to do."

Very good stuff, this.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

[LoudmouthMormon]

So, in other words, if you want to be happier, less mentally ill, less depressed, less suicidal, more comfortable with your sexual identity or gender, less addicted to drugs/alcohol/smokes, then you should seriously consider being a mormon.   Watch out for perfectionism and negative self-image.  There's never enough research to prove such things, but usually when someone asks, they find that your odds are better with us.

Edited June 21, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

So, in other words, if you want to be happier, less mentally ill, less depressed, less suicidal, more comfortable with your sexual identity or gender, less addicted to drugs/alcohol/smokes, then you should seriously consider being a mormon.   Watch out for perfectionism and negative self-image.  There's never enough research to prove such things, but usually when someone asks, they find that your odds are better with us.

Did they look at the difference between born in the faith and latecomer? (Haven’t read it yet)

Any chance it could be because everyone who had issues that you listed left the faith? (Correlation demonstrated, not causation)

Edited June 21, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

I am not surprised but having read the Deseret News article and then the study results and then the Deseret News article again that the article gives a pretty incomplete view of the data. Some of it borders on being misleading.

If people are interested I would recommend the study data. The study data is much more what I expected to find.

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Did they look at the difference between born in the faith and latecomer? (Haven’t read it yet)

Any chance it could be because everyone who had issues that you listed left the faith? (Correlation demonstrated, not causation)

No on the second. The limitations of the data in the abstract hit on the second question specifically. This is a grab bag of various studies and most are a snapshot in time. A few have some data on prior status but you would need longitudinal studies to get that kind of data.

As far as I can tell no on the first but you might have to dig into the weeds of what the original studies said.

Edited June 22, 2023 by The Nehor

[blackstrap]

What ? A news article doesn't get all the nuances of a scientific study? Can't be ! Never happened before ! 

[Tacenda]

Very apt quote from reddit about the article:

“Research” is completely useless if you already have an end result in mind and ignore all things contrary that come up. That is true for every study, especially ones from the church that can’t be wrong…..

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Very apt quote from reddit about the article:

“Research” is completely useless if you already have an end result in mind and ignore all things contrary that come up. That is true for every study, especially ones from the church that can’t be wrong…..

Same for the ones that can’t imagine the Church doing or producing decent things in their worldview.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Calm

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Very apt quote from reddit about the article:

“Research” is completely useless if you already have an end result in mind and ignore all things contrary that come up. That is true for every study, especially ones from the church that can’t be wrong…..

And from anonymous redditors who "already have an end result in mind," who "ignore all things contrary" to that end, and who can't abide the idea of Church getting things right.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ksfisher]

7 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

So, in other words, if you want to be happier, less mentally ill, less depressed, less suicidal, more comfortable with your sexual identity or gender, less addicted to drugs/alcohol/smokes, then you should seriously consider being a mormon.   Watch out for perfectionism and negative self-image.  There's never enough research to prove such things, but usually when someone asks, they find that your odds are better with us.

I would replace your sentence “you should seriously consider being a mormon” with “you should seriously consider living the gospel of Jesus Christ and making and keeping sacred covenants with Him.”

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

And from anonymous redditors who "already have an end result in mind," who "ignore all things contrary" to that end, and who can't abide the idea of Church getting things right.

Thanks,

-Smac

To be fair to the random redditor that article did do some serious spin.

[Emily]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

"maladaptive perfectionism"

There was a very good book out several years ago called, "Believing Christ" by Stephen E Robinson and another popular one called, "Odds are, you're going to be exalted!" by Alonzo Gaskill (more on the lightweight side) that covers the kind of thinking that leads to discouraged perfectionists. Popular books, so it's obviously an issue.

Being too hard on yourself is also brought up in conference talks, sacrament talks and ad nauseum in Relief Society. So research indicating a 30-something percent of members experiencing feelings of inadequacy aren't surprising.

But I have to be honest, I don't get it.  

There's nothing in the teachings of the church that should cause people to be too hard on themselves. So wherever it's coming from, it's not church doctrine. Anyone know the percent of people that experience feelings of inadequacy in the general population?

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Emily said:

There's nothing in the teachings of the church that should cause people to be too hard on themselves.

I find this statement utterly baffling.

You are told you worry too much about little things. That sounds nice and then you read:

“For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to chide us from his presence.”

You are told you are too scrupulous. Okay, I guess I can be less worried about that:

“But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish.”

Then you wonder why some people find comfort in scripture and they so often seem so dark to you.

“And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.”

Oh, that explains it.

3 hours ago, Emily said:

There was a very good book out several years ago called, "Believing Christ" by Stephen E Robinson and another popular one called, "Odds are, you're going to be exalted!" by Alonzo Gaskill (more on the lightweight side) that covers the kind of thinking that leads to discouraged perfectionists. Popular books, so it's obviously an issue.

And what do the scriptures say about those who tell people what they want to hear?

”Odds are, you’re going to be exalted”

That sounds nice.

“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which. leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Ummmm……which one is right?

[Calm]

There is also 1) 1 Nephi 3:7, one of the few scriptures I still have the ‘address’ memorized because of its impact.

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And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

Which verse has been taught to me over and over in my youth and younger adult years as the interpretation that if I failed at or simply could not complete something the Lord commanded, it was because of my lack of faith or refusal to look for what the Lord provided and therefore I am sinning like Laman and Lemuel who gave up so easily.  Given how broad you can interpret what are those commandments you are supposed to fulfill (up to being the perfect—2) be ye therefore perfect—wife, mother, daughter, neighbor, Saint, citizen, PTA member…since when we are in the service of our fellowman, we are in the service of God), you can easily fall into the trap of thinking you are of little faith.

Then there is the whole 3) faith the size of a mustard seed will move mountains that I learned about in Primary and was even given a mustard seed so I could look at it and know all I needed was the littlest beginnings of faith in order to do anything and yet my faith won’t heal me…won’t even heal me enough to get to Church to worship with the Saints on many days…way too easy to interpret that as my faith must be worth less than disconnected. 

Combine those three scriptures together if you really want to feel intense shame about chronic illness and spending time and effort on caring for yourself rather than serving others.

Thankfully on the vast majority of days I ignore those echoes of long ago Primary lessons and sermons (and the occasional overly helpful but clueless individual these days).  I also tend to insert certain qualifiers as I read the scriptures.  However, I do believe those teachings and interpretations of doctrine that were shared with me in the past have had the unfortunate effect of me asking for less priesthood blessings or praying for help from God in these areas (the whole be careful what you ask for) as the child in me is quite fearful of what God thinks I am capable of versus what I think I am (given the ‘opportunities for personal growth’ I have already failed to fulfill).  It seems at times it is not just my earthly parents who have answered a request for help from me by requiring me to help someone else instead. There are plenty of sermons which have suggested God works that way too in my experience. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Calm

[Benjamin McGuire]

Three comments -

1: Substance abuse - the article seems to be suggesting that substance abuse and mental health go hand in hand. This isn't true. Mental health is much greater indicator of future substance abuse than substance abuse is an indicator of mental health. I have no problem with the conclusion that Mormons are better off avoiding substance abuse.

2: The problem with research summaries like the one referenced here - is that they have a tendency to flatten data. This is really helpful in some cases - it tends to help identify outliers. It is problematic when there are broader shifts during the period being studied - especially without longitudinal studies to provide a corrective framework. For example, the survey covered studies published between 2005 and 2022. Between 2007 and 2016, adolescent suicide in Utah tripled, making suicide the leading cause of death in Utah among adolescents. Flattening trends tends to allow for misinterpretation of the data - especially in current contexts.

3: The flattening creates normalcy by comparison. Consider this statement:

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Research findings show that Latter-day Saints who identify as LGBTQ (used here to denote all sexual and gender minority experiences), on average, have just as good and typically better mental health than LGBTQ individuals of other religious traditions or those who describe themselves as not believing in God.

This may certainly be true - and yet not helpful at all. We know that in Utah, nearly half of the LGBTQ youth considered suicide (a study not included in the summary - because it did not specify religious demographics). We also know thatUtah has the third highest adolescent suicide rate in the United States. I think that it is likely (as the study suggests) that being LDS doesn't particularly make a difference over whether or not LGBTQ youth in Utah contemplate (or succeed) at suicide. But I see this as more of an indictment than a positive. The article makes a rather strange (in my opinion) comment that:

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What is emerging from more detailed research is that identity conflict is related to decreased mental health. For LGBTQ individuals, being conflicted about their Latter-day Saint identity may be of particular concern. Resolving identity conflicts is likely key for LGBTQ individuals to remain connected with God and the church in healthy ways.

My experience with LGBTQ youth who are also LDS is that this particular conflict is relatively easy to resolve for those who don't live in Utah at least. They simply stop identifying as LDS. This might be harder in Utah, I don't know. But if, as the one study that deals with LDS suicidal behaviors and thoughts (used by the authors) is right - that family conflict and low parental closeness were the most significant factors for LGBTQ youth suicide ideation, then the fact that there is little difference between LDS and non-LDS LGBTQ youth is itslef something of an indictment against the LDS approach to LGBTQ youth. Suicide is a strange area for these kinds of studies. We don't have the depth of data yet because of the societal context that has changed rapidly. We don't have longitudinal studies that have asked these questions because it is only relatively recently that we decided to start asking these questions. And longitudinal studies themselves present ethical problems when we deal with the question of suicides and suicide ideation.

The comparison that the news article makes helps its authors avoid addressing the issue that there is a very real mental health problem within the LDS Community's LGBTQ youth - and it needs to be addressed in a meaningful way. Saying that we are no worse off than anyone else is a way of suggesting that it really isn't our problem.

Finally -

12 hours ago, blackstrap said:

What ? A news article doesn't get all the nuances of a scientific study? Can't be ! Never happened before ! 

This is rather humorous given that the summary study that is referenced by the article was written by the same authors as the news piece.

[Dario_M]

It depends also how much pressure you give us LDS members. I know that some members of my ward are under a lot of pressure. That's never healthy. Because......you see.... if you put to much pressure on someone that person will get stress. And we all know that to much stress is just plain bad for your health. That is just so. Always. 

If i look at my missionaries i see that they are just stressed out. They suffer to much resposibility's. They are in a strange country. Far away from their family. That can't be healthy. And i see that on them. 

I can remember that in the beginning after i got baptized... my ward also tried to put some pressure on me. But uhmm... they have figured out that that doesn't work with me. 😇 They know that now.😁 And that's more healthy (for me at least).

Because if i don't wanna do something i just won't do it, peroid. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Dario_M

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

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Research findings show that Latter-day Saints who identify as LGBTQ (used here to denote all sexual and gender minority experiences), on average, have just as good and typically better mental health than LGBTQ individuals of other religious traditions or those who describe themselves as not believing in God.

This may certainly be true - and yet not helpful at all.

It's really helpful when you're interacting with the endless hoards of critics all screaming "the church makes gay people want to kill themselves, and the best thing an lgbtq person could possibly do is leave the evil repressive oppressive harmful church" at the top of their lungs.  

We all want to keep people alive.  We all want less suicide, and more causes of suicide addressed.  The mantra of "get the gays out of the church and things will be better" needs to be murderized in the quickest way possible.  All it does is take some high-risk folks, and convince them to abandon some pretty dang good sources of help, feelings of community, resources, and love.

You sure it isn't "not helpful at all"?

[Benjamin McGuire]

12 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

It's really helpful when you're interacting with the endless hoards of critics all screaming "the church makes gay people want to kill themselves, and the best thing an lgbtq person could possibly do is leave the evil repressive oppressive harmful church" at the top of their lungs.  

We all want to keep people alive.  We all want less suicide, and more causes of suicide addressed.  The mantra of "get the gays out of the church and things will be better" needs to be murderized in the quickest way possible.  All it does is take some high-risk folks, and convince them to abandon some pretty dang good sources of help, feelings of community, resources, and love.

You sure it isn't "not helpful at all"?

Yes, I am sure.

[california boy]

29 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

It's really helpful when you're interacting with the endless hoards of critics all screaming "the church makes gay people want to kill themselves, and the best thing an lgbtq person could possibly do is leave the evil repressive oppressive harmful church" at the top of their lungs.  

We all want to keep people alive.  We all want less suicide, and more causes of suicide addressed.  The mantra of "get the gays out of the church and things will be better" needs to be murderized in the quickest way possible.  All it does is take some high-risk folks, and convince them to abandon some pretty dang good sources of help, feelings of community, resources, and love.

You sure it isn't "not helpful at all"?

From my life experience, yes, it is not helpful at all.  My whole life growing up in the church put me in direct conflict with who I am as a person.  I know that is very difficult for most straight people who have never experienced that to understand.  Many think that if gay people just suppress those feelings or if they just try harder to be straight or that it doesn't matter that their nature is totally in conflict with the very core teachings of the Church, they will be fine.  Just white knuckle it for your entire life. People that white knuckle their way through life generally are not in a good mental state.  At some point, things crack.  My family who totally bought into that belief had nothing to do with me for 13 years.  You don't think that can have a huge toll on a person?  

If it was required of you to suppress everything that makes you a man and live as a woman, do you think that would be helpful?  That is what it is like for a gay person to try and fit into this Church where the only path to happiness is to marry someone who you have no desire for in order to succeed and have any chance of being brought back to God.  

I don't expect members of the Church who CAN live that kind of life to understand.  Their answer all my life has been you just aren't trying hard enough.  That mantra has caused so much misery and unhealthy unreachable false hope in LGBT members. It made me think that the only relationship I can have with God won't happen until I am straight.  Leaving the Church taught me that I can have a relationship with God.  I can have a happy and fulfilling life and share that life, just like straight people, with someone I love.  I don't believe in the whole concept that God wants us to be miserable in this life.  That is one of the teaching in the Church that I still embrace.

When I read that 70% of LGBT members leave the Church, I think good for them. And I hope the other 30% can find their own happiness somehow navigating what the Church requires of them.  The goal is to rely on God and return to Him.  How we do it is our own path that we must all follow.  I believe there are more and more members that now realize that.  I also know that there are still a lot of members who will never accept that idea and firmly believe there is only one way back to God and that is only through the narrow porthole of the Church.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

It depends also how much pressure you give us LDS members. I know that some members of my ward are under a lot of pressure. That's never healthy. Because......you see.... if you put to much pressure on someone that person will get stress. And we all know that to much stress is just plain bad for your health. That is just so. Always. 

If i look at my missionaries i see that they are just stressed out. They suffer to much resposibility's. They are in a strange country. Far away from their family. That can't be healthy. And i see that on them. 

I can remember that in the beginning after i got baptized... my ward also tried to put some pressure on me. But uhmm... they have figured out that that doesn't work with me. 😇 They know that now.😁 And that's more healthy (for me at least).

Because if i don't wanna do something i just won't do it, peroid. 

I play pickleball with the wife of a husband in the branch presidency and she is heavily involved as well. She is shocked how many members that don't want to help with anything. Recently they had an activity that all the sign up sheet said was could they cook an already prepared lasagna from a restaurant nearby. Not one person signed up. And this is on going in the branch. More members are just saying no or are too busy. And probably less stressed. But it is sad that things are falling apart sort of and it's left to only a few to do it all. And it's kind of rare in my area to have branches instead of regular wards so that might be why.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

It's really helpful when you're interacting with the endless hoards of critics all screaming "the church makes gay people want to kill themselves, and the best thing an lgbtq person could possibly do is leave the evil repressive oppressive harmful church" at the top of their lungs.  

We all want to keep people alive.  We all want less suicide, and more causes of suicide addressed.  The mantra of "get the gays out of the church and things will be better" needs to be murderized in the quickest way possible.  All it does is take some high-risk folks, and convince them to abandon some pretty dang good sources of help, feelings of community, resources, and love.

You sure it isn't "not helpful at all"?

Yes.

The study also says that good mental health outcomes tend to occur when the lgbtq individual minimizes one identity and focuses on the other. Bad mental health outcomes are higher when they try to juggle both. Those who can minimize their lgbtq identity and focus on their church identity probably do so. For those who can’t or won’t the best action for their mental health appears to be to minimize their identity and interaction with the church.

I am very aware that if I disclosed what I am openly that I would be marginalized (more) by other members. It is hard to feel good about the fellowship of the saints when you know exactly how conditional is. When you are a teenager it is worse. Much much worse and I was shielded from some of it when I was young by ignorance.

[helix]

5 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

We also know thatUtah has the third highest adolescent suicide rate in the United States

Not so.

A couple months ago I  took suicide data from the CDC, for 15-19 year olds, between 1999-2021 (a handful of states haven't reported 2021 yet, but it won't change results much).

Here's the chart:

Alaska is on top, followed by South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, Idaho.  Utah comes in 7th.  New Mexico and Colorado are 8th and 9th. Rural and elevation are big correlations.

If you try to look at a 10 year trend rather than a 22 year trend, results are similar. Nobody should be looking at a 3-5 year trend (as I've seen some do), as data in low population states mean little data and more variability. Also, a 10 year trend for 10-19 year olds (rather than just 15-19 year olds) is pretty much the same as the above.

Feel free to dig into the data yourself.  https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D76 Use ICD codes (X60-X84) for suicide.

Edited June 22, 2023 by helix

[smac97]

1 hour ago, helix said:

Not so.

A couple months ago I  took suicide data from the CDC, for 15-19 year olds, between 1999-2021 (a handful of states haven't reported 2021 yet, but it won't change results much).

Here's the chart:

Alaska is on top, followed by South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, Idaho.  Utah comes in 7th.  New Mexico and Colorado are 8th and 9th. Rural and elevation are big correlations.

If you try to look at a 10 year trend rather than a 22 year trend, results are similar. Nobody should be looking at a 3-5 year trend (as I've seen some do), as data in low population states mean little data and more variability. Also, a 10 year trend for 10-19 year olds (rather than just 15-19 year olds) is pretty much the same as the above.

Feel free to dig into the data yourself.  https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D76 Use ICD codes (X60-X84) for suicide.

Some more data (the top ten states for suicidality are in bold in the list below, which has states ranked by Latter-day Saint population) :

LDS Pop Rank	State	LDS Pop	State Pop	% of Pop.
1	Utah	2,161,526	3,337,975	64.76%
2	California	734,989	39,237,836	1.87%
3	Idaho	471,241	1,900,923	24.79%
4	Arizona	438,249	7,276,316	6.02%
5	Texas	371,007	29,527,941	1.26%
6	Washington	283,609	7,738,692	3.66%
7	Nevada	182,569	3,143,991	5.81%
8	Florida	164,558	21,781,128	0.76%
9	Oregon	151,151	4,246,155	3.56%
10	Colorado	149,007	5,812,069	2.56%
11	Virginia	96,748	8,642,274	1.12%
12	North Carolina	91,521	10,551,162	0.87%
13	Georgia	87,908	10,799,566	0.81%
14	New York	82,866	19,835,913	0.42%
15	Missouri	75,375	6,168,187	1.22%
16	Hawaii	74,858	1,441,553	5.19%
17	New Mexico	69,096	2,115,877	3.27%
18	Wyoming	67,454	578,803	11.65%
19	Ohio	63,007	11,780,017	0.53%
20	Illinois	56,535	12,671,469	0.45%
21	Tennessee	55,456	6,975,218	0.80%
22	Pennsylvania	52,149	12,964,056	0.40%
23	Montana	51,289	1,104,271	4.64%
24	Oklahoma	50,800	3,986,639	1.27%
25	Indiana	46,253	6,805,985	0.68%
26	Michigan	45,185	10,050,811	0.45%
27	Maryland	43,309	6,165,129	0.70%
28	South Carolina	42,902	5,190,705	0.83%
29	Alabama	38,845	5,039,877	0.77%
30	Kansas	38,640	2,934,582	1.32%
31	Kentucky	37,077	4,509,394	0.82%
32	New Jersey	34,163	9,267,130	0.37%
33	Arkansas	34,027	3,025,891	1.12%
34	Alaska	33,250	732,673	4.54%
35	Minnesota	32,863	5,707,390	0.58%
36	Louisiana	29,550	4,624,047	0.64%
37	Iowa	28,471	3,193,079	0.89%
38	Massachusetts	27,932	6,984,723	0.40%
39	Wisconsin	27,582	5,895,908	0.47%
40	Nebraska	25,055	1,963,692	1.28%
41	Mississippi	21,936	2,949,965	0.74%
42	West Virginia	17,179	1,782,959	0.96%
43	Connecticut	15,625	3,605,597	0.43%
44	South Dakota	11,297	895,376	1.26%
45	North Dakota	11,287	774,948	1.46%
46	Maine	10,987	1,372,247	0.80%
47	New Hampshire	8,967	1,388,992	0.65%
48	Delaware	5,595	1,003,384	0.56%
49	Vermont	4,655	645,570	0.72%
50	Rhode Island	4,283	1,095,610	0.39%
51	District of Columbia	3,136	670,050	0.47%

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Some more data (the top ten states for suicidality are in bold in the list below, which has states ranked by Latter-day Saint population) :

LDS Pop Rank	State	LDS Pop	State Pop	% of Pop.
1	Utah	2,161,526	3,337,975	64.76%
2	California	734,989	39,237,836	1.87%
3	Idaho	471,241	1,900,923	24.79%
4	Arizona	438,249	7,276,316	6.02%
5	Texas	371,007	29,527,941	1.26%
6	Washington	283,609	7,738,692	3.66%
7	Nevada	182,569	3,143,991	5.81%
8	Florida	164,558	21,781,128	0.76%
9	Oregon	151,151	4,246,155	3.56%
10	Colorado	149,007	5,812,069	2.56%
11	Virginia	96,748	8,642,274	1.12%
12	North Carolina	91,521	10,551,162	0.87%
13	Georgia	87,908	10,799,566	0.81%
14	New York	82,866	19,835,913	0.42%
15	Missouri	75,375	6,168,187	1.22%
16	Hawaii	74,858	1,441,553	5.19%
17	New Mexico	69,096	2,115,877	3.27%
18	Wyoming	67,454	578,803	11.65%
19	Ohio	63,007	11,780,017	0.53%
20	Illinois	56,535	12,671,469	0.45%
21	Tennessee	55,456	6,975,218	0.80%
22	Pennsylvania	52,149	12,964,056	0.40%
23	Montana	51,289	1,104,271	4.64%
24	Oklahoma	50,800	3,986,639	1.27%
25	Indiana	46,253	6,805,985	0.68%
26	Michigan	45,185	10,050,811	0.45%
27	Maryland	43,309	6,165,129	0.70%
28	South Carolina	42,902	5,190,705	0.83%
29	Alabama	38,845	5,039,877	0.77%
30	Kansas	38,640	2,934,582	1.32%
31	Kentucky	37,077	4,509,394	0.82%
32	New Jersey	34,163	9,267,130	0.37%
33	Arkansas	34,027	3,025,891	1.12%
34	Alaska	33,250	732,673	4.54%
35	Minnesota	32,863	5,707,390	0.58%
36	Louisiana	29,550	4,624,047	0.64%
37	Iowa	28,471	3,193,079	0.89%
38	Massachusetts	27,932	6,984,723	0.40%
39	Wisconsin	27,582	5,895,908	0.47%
40	Nebraska	25,055	1,963,692	1.28%
41	Mississippi	21,936	2,949,965	0.74%
42	West Virginia	17,179	1,782,959	0.96%
43	Connecticut	15,625	3,605,597	0.43%
44	South Dakota	11,297	895,376	1.26%
45	North Dakota	11,287	774,948	1.46%
46	Maine	10,987	1,372,247	0.80%
47	New Hampshire	8,967	1,388,992	0.65%
48	Delaware	5,595	1,003,384	0.56%
49	Vermont	4,655	645,570	0.72%
50	Rhode Island	4,283	1,095,610	0.39%
51	District of Columbia	3,136	670,050	0.47%

Thanks,

-Smac

I don't think that reflects well on Utah LDS.

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't think that reflects well on Utah LDS.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.  Suicidal ideation is a complex thing.  Are you suggesting "Utah LDS" are culpable for Utah's suicide rate?  

A high percentage of Latter-day Saints is not, I think, correlative with the suicide rates noted by Helix.  A stronger correlative is cold winters and higher altitudes.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.  Suicidal ideation is a complex thing.  Are you suggesting "Utah LDS" are culpable for Utah's suicide rate?  

A high percentage of Latter-day Saints is not, I think, correlative with the suicide rates noted by Helix.  A stronger correlative is cold winters and higher altitudes.

Thanks,

-Smac

That gives a more ominous meaning to Brigham Young’s: “This is the place.”