Article Re: Mental Health of Latter-day Saints

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

It is not particularly scriptural either as long as you have faith…

 

I think people use the parable of the woman who wearied the unjust judge until he finally gave her what she wanted to support that point of view.

[gopher]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So what? Being upset at the logical consequences of the things you say actually happening is not a virtue or any kind of exoneration.

The most pervasive problem caused was the vicious abuse these words encouraged against people to inflict on themselves. If you are gay it is your fault. You chose it (which is confusing when you don’t remember such a thing). If you aren’t cured of it you must repent and pray harder. If it is not working you don’t have enough faith and you aren’t desperate enough (talk of pounding on God’s door until your fists bleed sure makes God sound like a huge jerk). Masturbation may have made you gay so if you did that, even innocently, definitely your fault. And if you continue on this path you may well be attracted to animals next.

Wait, they are killing themselves? Why? The gospel is all about hope! They must not have understood it! No, they got the message loud and clear.

Right behind that problem is probably the idea that it is a contagion that spreads. In other words isolate them from everyone. This teaching is why families routinely cut off their lgbt kids. And yeah, it got some of those kids abused. Pretending this is a general principle that applies to all LDS children because a baptist preacher down the road says Mormons are going to hell is just insane.

My initial comment was to a poster who claimed that because of talks given by church leaders in the past "many closeted gays probably took their lives because of them".

Rage all you want against church leaders and their past statements, but maybe can we stop sending the message (even unintentionally) to vulnerable teens that suicide is an acceptable response?  I see no benefit to tying past comments from church leaders to suicides of LGBT members except to score points with unfeeling critics.

Yesterday, the church sent out an email with the subject line "Someone Struggling? Ideas on How to Help" which gives advice on how to support someone facing mental health challenges or thoughts of suicide.  That's a much more helpful response.

[gopher]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Would you be okay if he had accused Pres Kimball of spreading falsehoods?  

It is unfortunate that unintentional falsehoods can do as much damage as would happen if someone spread them knowing they were false (making them a liar).

I believe it is a good idea not to try and defend the indefensible. That part of the book was inaccurate and fed into prejudices and fears.  According to his son, it sounds like Pres Kimball himself wouldn’t defend it.  I don’t believe he would have once he found out what he said wasn’t true.  He was a good man with a good heart.***

I have a brother in law who died of AIDS.  I never talked to him personally about that part of his life, he withdrew from any involvement with my family once he admitted it, but from what my sister says he married her because of what he was taught at church and home in line with that book.  She was going to save him from hell. The desperation and shame it created in him did not protect him and may have contributed (though I would never claim that was the sole cause or even a major cause of self destructive behaviour as humans are too complicated to make such claims based on anecdotes) even as he responded to those feelings of shame by acting out in dangerous ways since at times he saw himself as worthless, though I do not know when he was infected, pre or post coming out.

https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2762815&itype=CMSID

Yes, that's much different.  We often hear GC speakers use the results of scientific or medical studies to support a Gospel principle.  What happens when those studies are later shown to be incorrect?  It's unfortunate there were church leaders who promoted ideas that we now believe are harmful and false.  I have no idea if President Kimball knew he was spreading falsehoods or if he believed what he had read and heard at the time.  I think leaders today are much more careful.

I think we are to blame a bit.  We demand the prophet explain why something is a sin when it's possible he doesn't fully know why. So it makes it easy to look around for explanations that may be incorrect to support the principle, even though the principle is true.  There are plenty of examples in the scriptures where God didn't give an explanation of why in his instructions to His prophets.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

But the question is what do the religious experiences really mean.  Are they simply created by our brain and thus become part of an individuals reality?  r are they from an outside force or influence-what you would call the spirit, or the Holy Ghost.  I know we have been over and over this but what I struggle with on such experience is finding them reliable since they are so diverse and lead people to believe and assert their experience is "truth" but those "truths"conflict.

Imo you have to take it pragmatically.

You cannot worry about "where experiences come from" - you think it matters, but it actually doesn't matter because experience is ALL YOU HAVE.  You are trying to use your brain to think about what your brain cannot tell you!!

You must drop that illusion that you can get outside your mind's limits.

Meaning is created in your mind from your own experiences and values.

Are they from an outside force? 

Everything is, but we cannot theorize outside our abilities, so irrelevant. Create your own answer. The alternative is solipsism: Irrational. All the world is not your creation: see Rorty below. Yes it is a HUMAN creation, but it's not yours!

Yes, all you know CAN be from brain chemicals, but that answers nothing. Why are those chemicals there?  "Evolution" 

But chemical reactions and evolution are still only human-brain-created paradigms.

Yes, they work.  Wonderfully!  But they AND their wonderfulness are still creations of a human mind.

What if even WE little humans could "evolve", in the right conditions, into Super Humans with Super Human Minds, and create our own worlds without end?

That's called LDS theology.

Humanism: the perfection of mankind.

[The Nehor]

On 6/28/2023 at 11:26 AM, gopher said:

Rage all you want against church leaders and their past statements, but maybe can we stop sending the message (even unintentionally) to vulnerable teens that suicide is an acceptable response?

I agree, so we should disavow the “Miracle of Forgiveness” which unintentionally does exactly that.

On 6/28/2023 at 11:26 AM, gopher said:

I see no benefit to tying past comments from church leaders to suicides of LGBT members except to score points with unfeeling critics.

So it doesn’t matter whether it is actually happening or not. We just have to make sure the critics don’t have ammo. What about the feeling critics?

On 6/28/2023 at 11:26 AM, gopher said:

Yesterday, the church sent out an email with the subject line "Someone Struggling? Ideas on How to Help" which gives advice on how to support someone facing mental health challenges or thoughts of suicide.  That's a much more helpful response.

I talk to LGBT people all the time. A few are suicidal. Being able to understand why they are giving in to despair is much more helpful. When I was at a low point and confided to someone that President Kimball’s comments had caused me a lot of pain they downplayed the comments and suggested I took them too seriously. That seems to be your approach. Downplay the comments. It doesn’t help. And people reflexively do this when trying to help.

[gopher]

On 6/29/2023 at 7:51 PM, The Nehor said:

I agree, so we should disavow the “Miracle of Forgiveness” which unintentionally does exactly that.

Unintentionally was the wrong word to use.  I was thinking of those who blindly repeat what they've heard or read without checking to see if it's true.  But I don't believe the book unintentionally sends the message to vulnerable teens that suicide is an acceptable response so I disagree with you there.  But I also have no problem with the Miracle of Forgiveness being taking out of circulation.

On 6/29/2023 at 7:51 PM, The Nehor said:

So it doesn’t matter whether it is actually happening or not. We just have to make sure the critics don’t have ammo. What about the feeling critics?

I don't believe past comments of church leaders are responsible for suicides of LGBT members.  From what I've read, suicide is much more complicated than that.  Hopefully we'll continue to get a better understanding as more research is done.  I listened to an interview with a therapist this week who pointed out that the rates of suicide for LGBT youth is nearly identical to those of youth with underlying mental health challenges.  Hopefully we can find better ways of suicide prevention in the future.  I also disagree with those that have blamed suicides on social media, climate change, and Fade to Black by Metallica.  At least until there is a broad consensus among researchers that those things directly cause suicide.

On 6/29/2023 at 7:51 PM, The Nehor said:

I talk to LGBT people all the time. A few are suicidal. Being able to understand why they are giving in to despair is much more helpful. When I was at a low point and confided to someone that President Kimball’s comments had caused me a lot of pain they downplayed the comments and suggested I took them too seriously. That seems to be your approach. Downplay the comments. It doesn’t help. And people reflexively do this when trying to help.

No, that is not my approach.  I'm not downplaying any pain that someone experienced from President Kimball's comments or any other church leader so you are wrong there.  I agree that person was wrong in their response to you.  My comments are only directed to the claims that reading or hearing comments of Church leaders is the cause of suicide.  You may also disagree with my belief that the atonement of Jesus Christ is powerful enough to help anyone get through whatever crisis they are experiencing, even though it often isn't easy.  Which is why it helps to have caring family and friends.  I'm with you if you want to criticize members who haven't cared for their LGBT children.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, gopher said:

My comments are only directed to the claims that reading or hearing comments of Church leaders is the cause of suicide. 

Would you be okay with hearing certain past comments may have contributed to feelings of despair, which may have increased levels of suicide ideation in some individuals.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

Unintentionally was the wrong word to use.  I was thinking of those who blindly repeat what they've heard or read without checking to see if it's true.  But I don't believe the book unintentionally sends the message to vulnerable teens that suicide is an acceptable response so I disagree with you there.  But I also have no problem with the Miracle of Forgiveness being taking out of circulation.

I don't believe past comments of church leaders are responsible for suicides of LGBT members.  From what I've read, suicide is much more complicated than that.  Hopefully we'll continue to get a better understanding as more research is done.  I listened to an interview with a therapist this week who pointed out that the rates of suicide for LGBT youth is nearly identical to those of youth with underlying mental health challenges.  Hopefully we can find better ways of suicide prevention in the future.  I also disagree with those that have blamed suicides on social media, climate change, and Fade to Black by Metallica.  At least until there is a broad consensus among researchers that those things directly cause suicide.

No, that is not my approach.  I'm not downplaying any pain that someone experienced from President Kimball's comments or any other church leader so you are wrong there.  I agree that person was wrong in their response to you.  My comments are only directed to the claims that reading or hearing comments of Church leaders is the cause of suicide.  You may also disagree with my belief that the atonement of Jesus Christ is powerful enough to help anyone get through whatever crisis they are experiencing, even though it often isn't easy.  Which is why it helps to have caring family and friends.  I'm with you if you want to criticize members who haven't cared for their LGBT children.

For the record, I don’t think being gay is a crisis, nor do I believe the atonement can change a persons gayness (or heterosexuality for that matter.)

Also I don’t believe a masterbating child or adult is a crisis.  

I do believe the atonement can offer hope for anyone to know they are loved even when others hate them or think they are so far gone that they might qualify as the dreaded “wayward”. FWIW. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by MustardSeed

[gopher]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Would you be okay with hearing certain past comments may have contributed to feelings of despair, which may have increased levels of suicide ideation in some individuals.

Of course.  Again, here's the statement earlier in this thread I objected to: "This wiki link shows the many leaders' talks in the church throughout time since recorded talks are given that are damning against the lgbtq crowd, and sadly there were many closeted gays that probably took their lives because of them".  I see similar claims often repeated on other forums as well.  I'm not claiming that those talks didn't contribute to feelings of despair by some people.  There are certainly lots of factors that contribute to suicidal feelings, but I think we have to be careful when we look to place the blame when it's actually acted on.  Yesterday I overheard a teen young man say that his parents made him want to commit suicide because they punished him by taking his phone away.  They may have contributed to his feelings of despair, but I wouldn't accuse them of being responsible if he actually went through with it.  I guess I'm not being clear so I'll bow out.

I am a bit confused here though.  The MoF is no longer available to buy.   The offending passages are no longer used in church, so the only place to read them are on forums like this.  If you believe reading those statements can cause feelings of despair and even suicide in LGBT members, maybe it's a good idea to stop posting them on a publicly accessible site where LGBT members can read them.  (edit: I'm not saying you are doing this, Calm)

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by gopher

[gopher]

16 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

For the record, I don’t think being gay is a crisis, nor do I believe the atonement can change a persons gayness (or heterosexuality for that matter.)

Also I don’t believe a masterbating child or adult is a crisis.  

I do believe the atonement can offer hope for anyone to know they are loved even when others hate them or think they are so far gone that they might qualify as the dreaded “wayward”. FWIW. 

Since you quoted me, I thought you were challenging something I posted, but I can't find anything I posted contrary to what you posted.

[Calm]

On 7/2/2023 at 8:42 AM, gopher said:

I think we have to be careful when we look to place the blame when it's actually acted on. 

The professionals come across to me as very concerned with how suicide is talked about. One of the big issues they have is too often ideation and actions are attributed to one cause***.  So I agree with you on that.

 I think you yourself though could be more careful in your criticisms so that it does not appear you are being completely dismissive of claims of influences as opposed to protesting they were the cause or even primary cause.  That is a similar inappropriate way to discuss suicide in beneficial, informative ways.  In trying to prevent one error it is not wise to commit another one. 

***https://www.lgbtmap.org/file/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations.pdf

Edited July 10, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 7/2/2023 at 9:42 AM, gopher said:

Of course.  Again, here's the statement earlier in this thread I objected to: "This wiki link shows the many leaders' talks in the church throughout time since recorded talks are given that are damning against the lgbtq crowd, and sadly there were many closeted gays that probably took their lives because of them".  I see similar claims often repeated on other forums as well.  I'm not claiming that those talks didn't contribute to feelings of despair by some people.  There are certainly lots of factors that contribute to suicidal feelings, but I think we have to be careful when we look to place the blame when it's actually acted on.  Yesterday I overheard a teen young man say that his parents made him want to commit suicide because they punished him by taking his phone away.  They may have contributed to his feelings of despair, but I wouldn't accuse them of being responsible if he actually went through with it.  I guess I'm not being clear so I'll bow out.

Your anecdote is almost certainly just someone using hyperbole.

We need to be careful where to put the blame. Basically it is too complex so you can’t blame things church leaders have said even if they are clearly some of the primary drivers. Is that where we are now? There are other factors in addition to our abusive words?

On 7/2/2023 at 9:42 AM, gopher said:

I am a bit confused here though.  The MoF is no longer available to buy.   The offending passages are no longer used in church, so the only place to read them are on forums like this.  If you believe reading those statements can cause feelings of despair and even suicide in LGBT members, maybe it's a good idea to stop posting them on a publicly accessible site where LGBT members can read them.  (edit: I'm not saying you are doing this, Calm)

Really? That certainly is a novel reason to bury part of church history. If we tell the truth about what we used to say people might kill themselves. 

The book isn’t really the primary problem right now. Sure it is on a lot of shelves in homes and will probably still be read. The more pervasive problem is we have LOTS of members who have internalized this book’s teachings because they read it before their mission or took it with them or picked up what it taught by osmosis and these people are out there with LGBT children and nieces/nephews and grandchildren. So we let the book die and have to wait until all the people who believed the words of the prophet slowly die off too.

I don’t know that I support this approach. Okay, I definitely don’t.

Edited July 3, 2023 by The Nehor

[Emily]

On 6/23/2023 at 11:24 AM, Teancum said:

Have you ever read the book Miracle of Forgiveness?

I have. As have some close relatives who had participated in some sins that are traditionally considered a bit more serious than any I've committed, so while my levels of guilt are sufficient to make me feel the need of repentance, they both had guilt that made them feel very bad about themselves. The book helped them. So I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

[Emily]

On 6/23/2023 at 12:15 PM, Tacenda said:

sadly there were many closeted gays that probably took their lives because of them

People commit suicide for complex reasons, most of which involve maladaptive brain chemistry which may or may not be magnified by the use of drugs and alcohol. While environment can certainly provide a tipping point toward suicide for a depressed patient, the fact of the matter is, the depression always comes first. 

Most of the research that's been done on suicide supports the belief that better medical treatment is the best way to reduce suicide rates. So far, I've found absolutely no research that suggests that calling immoral behavior "acceptable" will lead to lower suicide rates. (But I'm willing to look at any studies that support this theory if anyone has them.)

Here's another fact to consider before saying that a prophet's call to repentance "may" be responsible for the suicides of "many" closet gays.  I'm sorry, but I'm not going to pull punches on this. Do you have anything in the way of objective statistics that would to support the idea that a large number of children read a particular book, then went out and killed themselves? It's irresponsible to make a statement like that without solid data to back it up.

But I digress. The fact is, older white men have the highest suicide rates in our country. But you don't see anyone blaming church leaders, social inequities or mean kids at school for the deaths of old, white men. 

Don't get me wrong. Members of the church do need to "do better" when it comes to offering compassion and understanding toward anyone who happens to be dealing with a mortal weakness that is different from our own, be it same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria, smoking, obesity or anger management issues. But we are not obligated, nor is it wise, to castigate the watchmen on the tower for pointing out that having a weakness is not an excuse for giving way to that weakness. That's their job.

If we don't allow the General Authorities to do their jobs, and insist that our ideas are more comfortable for us, and therefore better, we are likely to find ourselves on a one way trip on a metaphorical imploding submersible, taking several unsuspecting people who believed that our self-assurance was actual truth along for the ride.

https://www.prb.org/resources/elderly-white-men-afflicted-by-high-suicide-rates/#:~:text=White men ages 85 and,at 7.8 deaths per 100%2C000.
 

 

 

[Melon Sunrise]

19 hours ago, Emily said:

Don't get me wrong. Members of the church do need to "do better" when it comes to offering compassion and understanding toward anyone who happens to be dealing with a mortal weakness that is different from our own, be it same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria, smoking, obesity or anger management issues. But we are not obligated, nor is it wise, to castigate the watchmen on the tower for pointing out that having a weakness is not an excuse for giving way to that weakness. That's their job.

Hi Emily. You sound like someone who needs to talk to someone like me. It would surely be heaps of fun. I joined this forum yesterday in the hope of discussing something I believe is of monumental significance (hyperbole aside), but my post was shut down on account of my oversharing and sounding like I'm ex-Mormon — which I'm not.

Given the anonymity this board affords me, I am willing to be candid about some uncomfortable truths.

I don't actively think about suicide, but those thoughts are unwanted clouds that regularly cross my horizon each time I wonder how I can keep up the masquerade I've been forced into by my devotion to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

A few decades ago, I followed the instruction of my patriarchal blessing to marry and have children. However, I am a same-sex attracted man — and this has brought untold emotional complications. Sometimes, suicide feels like the only way out. That's not a cry for help, by the way. I will abscond from everything before I top myself, but those unwanted thoughts occasionally arrive front and center on account of what society (family, faith, and secular) has done "with the best of intentions."

[Benjamin McGuire]

On 7/8/2023 at 5:40 PM, Emily said:

older white men have the highest suicide rates in our country

We have to be careful with statements like this because, while true, it isn't particularly granular in nature. There are several factors which should be considered -

When we just break the data into ages and races without consideration of other factors, we miss some information - which may lead to the overall conclusions you present, but only indirectly. In particular, we should recognize that there is a wide range in terms of success rates when attempting suicide. Male white men over the age of 65 have a fairly high success rate when attempting suicide. Older people tend to plan more for it, and use more lethal means (especially men). One of the highest suicide groups (when we look at the data more closely) is from veterans - who display these tendencies for better planning and more lethal means. Approximately 1 in 4 attempted suicides for old white men are successful (and we note that in the article you link, there was approximately 11 deaths per 100,000 in this category). By contrast, among teenagers, only about 1 in 200 attempts are successful.

It is complicated. But let's not confuse the outcome (in successful suicides) from the question of whether or not societal pressures lead to suicide attempts for the young, and especially for LGBTQ youth:

Quote

Youth and young adults have high rates of emergency department (ED) visits for self-harm. In 2020, ED visits for this age group were 354.4 per 100,000, compared with 128.9 per 100,000 among middle-aged adults ages 35-64 years.

...

In 2021, more than a quarter (26.3%) of high school students identifying as lesbian, gay, or bisexual reported attempting suicide in the prior 12 months. This rate was five times higher than the rate reported among heterosexual students (5.2%)

It is a blessing of sorts that these kids are so bad at it. If they were to be as effective at suicide attempts as their old white male peers, we would be having an entirely different discussion.

[california boy]

On 7/2/2023 at 7:42 AM, gopher said:

Of course.  Again, here's the statement earlier in this thread I objected to: "This wiki link shows the many leaders' talks in the church throughout time since recorded talks are given that are damning against the lgbtq crowd, and sadly there were many closeted gays that probably took their lives because of them".  I see similar claims often repeated on other forums as well.  I'm not claiming that those talks didn't contribute to feelings of despair by some people.  There are certainly lots of factors that contribute to suicidal feelings, but I think we have to be careful when we look to place the blame when it's actually acted on.  Yesterday I overheard a teen young man say that his parents made him want to commit suicide because they punished him by taking his phone away.  They may have contributed to his feelings of despair, but I wouldn't accuse them of being responsible if he actually went through with it.  I guess I'm not being clear so I'll bow out.

I am a bit confused here though.  The MoF is no longer available to buy.   The offending passages are no longer used in church, so the only place to read them are on forums like this.  If you believe reading those statements can cause feelings of despair and even suicide in LGBT members, maybe it's a good idea to stop posting them on a publicly accessible site where LGBT members can read them.  (edit: I'm not saying you are doing this, Calm)

 

I think what you are forgetting or ignoring is the culture MoF solidified  in the Church that is still a part of how members feel about LGBT people.  It clearly instituted the idea that being gay was caused by their own behavior.  It also reinforced the idea that if they just prayed enough, hard enough, knocked at the door until their fingers bleed, then God would somehow change them to become straight.  When I came out to my family there was clearly an attitude that I just needed to white knuckle it though life and I would be fine.  If I didn't do that, then it was my own fault I was gay and the way they could show the consequence of that is to not allow me to be a part of the family UNTIL I was willing to do that.  

There is clearly an attitude prevalent in the Church today that the best thing a person can do if they are gay is to white knuckle their entire life.  A life where love is not possible.  A life where you are sentenced to being completely alone without companionship or even dating.  No family.  No attraction to anyone.  Just stay in this limbo condition until you die.  Then if you managed to make it through all of that, you will be given a woman to spend eternity with.  YEAH!  Not a particular rewarding promise for someone who is gay.

For some, it seems like the best solution is suicide.  Just get it over with and God will fix everything when you are dead.  Why go through a lifetime of suffering and feeling of worthlessness, a complete disappointment and embarrassment to the family?  God will understand why you did what you did.

For others, what is the point of trying to stay within the parameters the Church demands.  It seems like the only way this ends up is going to a lower kingdom anyway.  And isn't that where those who you actually want to be with are anyway?  So you just take the Celestial Kingdom off the table and live your life that is full of happiness and  love and companionship.  "Men are, that they might have joy".  If God thinks you are unworthy to live with Him, then just accept that and live in one of the lesser kingdoms.  We have already learned to accept the fact that our family thinks we are unworthy to live with them and our lives turned out just fine.  We found happiness anyway.

Edited July 10, 2023 by california boy

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think what you are forgetting or ignoring is the culture MoF solidified  in the Church that is still a part of how members feel about LGBT people.  It clearly instituted the idea that being gay was caused by their own behavior.  It also reinforced the idea that if they just prayed enough, hard enough, knocked at the door until their fingers bleed, then God would somehow change them to become straight.  When I came out to my family there was clearly an attitude that I just needed to white knuckle it though life and I would be fine.  If I didn't do that, then it was my own fault I was gay and the way they could show the consequence of that is to not allow me to be a part of the family UNTIL I was willing to do that.  

There is clearly an attitude prevalent in the Church today that the best thing a person can do if they are gay is to white knuckle their entire life.  A life where love is not possible.  A life where you are sentenced to being completely alone without companionship or even dating.  No family.  No attraction to anyone.  Just stay in this limbo condition until you die.  Then if you managed to make it through all of that, you will be given a woman to spend eternity with.  YEAH!  Not a particular rewarding promise for someone who is gay.

For some, it seems like the best solution is suicide.  Just get it over with and God will fix everything when you are dead.  Why go through a lifetime of suffering and feeling of worthlessness, a complete disappointment and embarrassment to the family?  God will understand why you did what you did.

For others, what is the point of trying to stay within the parameters the Church demands.  It seems like the only way this ends up is going to a lower kingdom anyway.  And isn't that where those who you actually want to be with are anyway?  So you just take the Celestial Kingdom off the table and live your life that is full of happiness and  love and companionship.  "Men are, that they might have joy".  If God thinks you are unworthy to live with Him, then just accept that and live in one of the lesser kingdoms.  We have already learned to accept the fact that our family thinks we are unworthy to live with them and our lives turned out just fine.  We found happiness anyway.

And if you're not with the CK God in the hereafter, why would someone want to be if that God says "um, no" to you being with Him if you act on the gayness that you were born with naturally.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

if you act on the gayness that you were born with naturally.

And if you weren’t born with it?  If that is a mistaken idea of what happens?

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

And if you weren’t born with it?  If that is a mistaken idea of what happens?

I am not gay or then maybe I'd have experience on my side. Since I'm not, I feel like I'm just putting myself in their shoes a bit. The analogy of if heterosexuals are told the norm is to love the same sex as your self how would you feel, if you're not feeling it and love the opposite sex. That's how someone who is gay feels, I'm thinking. So will I want to live with a God that would condemn me and keep me out of the highest kingdom for not wanting to marry someone my same sex, not much and so unfair. I'd just not want to be with a Father that would torture like that. So IMO, I believe there is more to the story, and I don't believe families will be separated by a just God. 

[Melon Sunrise]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And if you're not with the CK God in the hereafter, why would someone want to be if that God says "um, no" to you being with Him if you act on the gayness that you were born with naturally.

And this is precisely why I have subscribed here. As a same-sex attracted man, I reject the notion that anyone is born in any way at all — other than with biological differences that become fodder for society's obsession with stereotypes. I am convinced that the same society that attempts to imprint on us its desired optimal outcomes is directly responsible for the collateral damage of identity-related challenges. The Church is part of the paradigm that still convinces people into believing they are gay, trans, asexual, non-binary, etc.

On a related note, I emailed Desert Book on March 15, 2019 to request removal from their store of the digital version of the MoF as follows:

"My name is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (membership record number XXX-XXXX-XXXX), and I remain a lifelong active member of the Church.

I have finally reached the point where I am prepared to take a stand against misinformed personal opinion that is that lauded as doctrine.

In my view, President Kimball was an inspired prophet of God, but his seminal work The Miracle of Forgiveness includes material that is offensive, divisive, and in stark contrast with the greater light and knowledge revealed to successive prophets.

While the book is now out of print and no longer recommended reading for full-time missionaries, it continues to be made available in eBook format. Your website even features glowing reviews.

I wish to object in the strongest possible terms that Deseret Book continues to make the publication available. It would be entirely disingenuous for anyone to protest its validity on the basis of the majority of its content being well-meaning.

If you are unaware of the ignorant (and dare I suggest "shameful") elements to which I am referring, I will be pleased to provide examples."

I received no reply — other than an automated response to say my query was being addressed.

A few weeks later, I decided to check Deseret Book again, and MoF had been removed. Perhaps my email was the last straw. I guess we'll never know because they clearly had no intention of offering that information.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

For some, it seems like the best solution is suicide.  Just get it over with and God will fix everything when you are dead.  Why go through a lifetime of suffering and feeling of worthlessness, a complete disappointment and embarrassment to the family?  God will understand why you did what you did.

This, you begin to wonder if the inevitable pile of sins of thought and the growing knowledge that the situation is unsustainable and the sins will pile up in other areas it starts to counterbalance where the sin of suicide is the lesser evil. Plus you are told it is the body that it is causing the problem. ‘If the eye offends thee pluck it out’ suggests that it is better to maim yourself than go to hell whole. Then add in the realization that the love of your family and often your friends is VERY conditional and if they knew the truth the whole structure would collapse and you don’t know how far it will collapse until you push the button and find out.

Then the family gets upset when they are replaced.

 

[smac97]

On 6/26/2023 at 3:09 PM, Teancum said:

Quote

You are writing as if I wrote some sort of apologetic for the book.  I didn't.  To the contrary, I acknowledged that it "created problems for many members of the Church," and I also agreed with the sentiments expressed in this article about how the book should be "'allowed to sunset.'"

Yes ok.  But how convenient. 

It's not a matter of convenience.  It's a matter of pragmatism.  And forgiveness. 

The big complaint against Pres. Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is that it was too strident and condemnatory.  And in a few entries, it was - particularly by contemporary standards.  In later years even Pres. Kimball seemed to have recognized this, as according to his son (and neighbor), he "later seemed to wish he had adopted a gentler tone."

It is pragmatic and reasonable to forgive people from past generations for their errors.  They are dead, after all.  Moreover, often such errors are manifest in a "looking back in hindsight" kind of way.  Forgiveness is the better way because it allows us to set aside anger and bitterness, and helps us avoid the risks of presentism, and helps us avoid hypocrisy, and so on.

That is not to say that we ignore the mistakes of those who have gone before.  The answer, I think, is in Mormon 9:31: "Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been."

I think we ought to neither condemn nor forget.  Instead, we should - as exhorted by Moroni - look at mistakes of the past and "learn to be more wise" than our predecessors (and perhaps also "give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto {us their} imperfections").

On 6/26/2023 at 3:09 PM, Teancum said:

A high level apostle, then church president, writes book that quite frankly was an abomination.  It has caused untold damage to likely millions of people. 

That seems a bit much.

And I can't help but wonder if you have a latent expectation/requirement for perfection here.  If you have it in you to forgive John Q. Public for his putative trespasses against you, why not "a high level apostle, then church president"?

On 6/26/2023 at 3:09 PM, Teancum said:

But let's just let it sunset. 

Yes, that is what I am proposing.  Better that than allow resentments and animosity to fester in our souls in perpetuity.

On 6/26/2023 at 3:09 PM, Teancum said:

And you wonder why I think the Church's so called prophets and apostles are really rather worthless as a guide on how to live life. They get so much wrong. They cause so much damage.  Kimball was the prophet. His book was extremely popular.  People believed what he wrote. He got so much wrong. 

Prophets and apostles also get so much right. 

One of the biggest downsides to faultfinding (and harboring resentments) is the tendency to measure a person by their faults and weaknesses, with little or no concomitant regard for their virtues and strengths.  Back in January I made a few comments along these lines.  Some excerpts:

Quote

Failures are Often Not Definitive: We are living in an era in which {we often observe, or even participate in,} virtual online retreads of the Cadaver Synod.  We deploy presentism to rise up and publicly proclaim our own supposed virtues and superiority by condemning long-dead historical figures.  We reduce the entirety of a historical person's life down to only his errors, mistakes and worst qualities.  So Moses becomes a murderer.  Noah becomes a drunkard.  Thomas Jefferson and George Washington become slaveowners.  Martin Luther King, Jr. becomes an adulterer and plagiarist.  Gandhi was a sexist and racist.  And that's all they were.  This is a serious mistake in reasoning, historiography, and discipleship.

Navel-Gazing / Failure/Refusal to Credit Improvements in the Church: "Navel-gazing" is "self-indulgent or excessive contemplation of oneself or a single issue, at the expense of a wider view."  {}  When a "wider view" of the Church is taken as it exists in the here and now, when we give fair and reasonable consideration to its extensive improvement in addressing and condemning racism and other prejudices (including express and repeated repudiations of the racialized/racist teachings of past leaders), when we acknowledge these improvements and give credit where it's due, we are much better situated to review and consider the Church's condition, both past and present.  Navel-gazing impedes that.

Avoiding the Nirvana Fallacy: I have not previously raised the Nirvana Fallacy in this thread.  I do so now.  This fallacy is described here:

Quote

The nirvana fallacy is the informal fallacy of comparing actual things with unrealistic, idealized alternatives.
...
In La Bégueule (1772), Voltaire wrote Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien, which is often translated as "The perfect is the enemy of the good" (literally: "The best is the enemy of the good").

The nirvana fallacy was given its name by economist Harold Demsetz in 1969, who said:

Quote

The view that now pervades much public policy economics implicitly presents the relevant choice as between an ideal norm and an existing "imperfect" institutional arrangement. This nirvana approach differs considerably from a comparative institution approach in which the relevant choice is between alternative real institutional arrangements.

 

My sense is that some members of the Church are harboring idealized, unrealistic expectations about the Church, and its leaders and members, and its history.  This is the "perfect" part of Voltaire's maxim.  Online "shock value" compilations and other critical work very hard to alienate members of the Church from their faith, and often do so using the means and methodologies I am summarizing here.  Such compilations are full of cheap shots presented for shock value.  Presentism.  Facile criticism.  Misrepresentation by omission and distortion.  A determined effort to keep these topics decontextualized and sensationalized.  Sarcasm.  No effort to study or meaningfully understand.  And intermingled with them are some legitimate criticisms. 

These summaries of the Church are, understandably, difficult or impossible to reconcile with the Church's narrative about itself, which has long tended toward an idealized presentation (though I am happy to note that the Church has made a lot of improvement on this in recent years.  Some members, then, end up facing seemingly irreconcilable options

• Option A: the Church is essentially good and decent and ordained of God (as claimed by the Church), or
• Option B: the Church is essentially flawed and corrupt, and even evil (as claimed by authors of the above-referenced "big lists").

Applying Voltaire's maxim, the "perfect" (the idealized perception of, and expectations about, the Church and its members) becomes the enemy of the "good" (Option A).  Consequently, some folks go with Option B, because it seems the only plausible means of reconciling what they thought about the Church with what they now know about the Church.
...
Faultfinding and Failure/Refusal to Credit Improvements in the Church: This thread is rife with faultfinding.  It is a toxic exercise, both because it contravenes many of the core principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which commands us to repent, to forgive, to leave judgments to God, to sustain the Brethren, to not speak evil of them, etc.), and also because a person determined to find fault will pretty much always succeed at it.

I wrote this in response to a purported Latter-day Saint.  It is my understanding that you are a nominal, but currently unbelieving, member.  I therefore share this and hope you can find at least some of it worth your consideration.

On 6/26/2023 at 3:09 PM, Teancum said:

You can't just run away from it.

I'm not running away from it, nor am I recommending that to others.

I am, instead, proposing that we A) forgive our predecessors, B) learn from their errors, and C) give thanks to God that He has allowed us to see such things, and in so doing become more wise than past generations have been.

On 6/26/2023 at 3:09 PM, Teancum said:

See this is how the church works. Leaders teach things. People believe them. Than later the garbage that they taught is just tossed under the bus or in your words allowed to sunset. 

This is not a fair or accurate characterization of "how the church works," or of what I have said.

On 6/26/2023 at 3:09 PM, Teancum said:

What will be tossed under the bus or sunset 10, 15 or 20 years from now. 

Hopefully, our errors will be set aside.  And forgiven by future generations.

On 6/26/2023 at 3:09 PM, Teancum said:

The LDS leaders are totally unreliable.  Totally.

I respectfully disagree.  The sum total of the life of Spencer W. Kimball cannot reasonably be reduced to some harsh rhetoric he included in a book.  He was much more than that, and did so much more than that.  To characterize him and his fellows as "totally unreliable" is to overstate their flaws.  By a country mile.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 11, 2023 by smac97

[MustardSeed]

34 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It's not a matter of convenience.  It's a matter of pragmatism.  And forgiveness. 

The big complaint against Pres. Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is that it was too strident and condemnatory.  And in a few entries, it was - particularly by contemporary standards.  In later years even Pres. Kimball seemed to have recognized this, as according to his son (and neighbor), he "later seemed to wish he had adopted a gentler tone."

It is pragmatic and reasonable to forgive people from past generations for their errors.  They are dead, after all.  Moreover, often such errors are manifest in a "looking back in hindsight" kind of way.  Nevertheless, forgiveness is the better way, as it allows us to set aside anger and bitterness, and helps us avoid the risks of presentism, and helps us avoid hypocrisy, and so on.

That is not to say that we ignore the mistakes of those who have gone before.  The answer, I think, is in Mormon 9:31: "Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been."

I think we ought to neither condemn nor forget.  Instead, we should - as exhorted by Moroni - look at mistakes of the past and "learn to be more wise" than our predecessors (and perhaps also "give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto {us their} imperfections").

That seems a bit much.

And I can't help but wonder if you have a latent expectation/requirement for perfection here.  If you have it in you to forgive John Q. Public for his putative trespasses against you, why not "a high level apostle, then church president"?

Yes, that is what I am proposing.  Better that than allow resentments and animosity to fester in our souls in perpetuity.

Prophets and apostles also get so much right. 

One of the biggest downsides to faultfinding (and harboring resentments) is the tendency to measure a person by their faults and weaknesses, with little or no concomitant regard for their virtues and strengths.  Back in January I made a few comments along these lines.  Some excerpts:

I wrote this in response to a purported Latter-day Saint.  It is my understanding that you are a nominal, but currently unbelieving, member.  I therefore share this and hope you can find at least some of it worth your consideration.

I'm not running away from it, nor am I recommending that to others.

I am, instead, proposing that we A) forgive our predecessors, B) learn from their errors, and C) give thanks to God that He has allowed us to see such things, and in so doing become more wise than past generations have been.

This is not a fair or accurate characterization of "how the church works," or of what I have said.

Hopefully, our errors will be set aside.  And forgiven by future generations.

I respectfully disagree.  The sum total of the life of Spencer W. Kimball cannot reasonably be reduced to some harsh rhetoric he included in a book.  He was much more than that, and did so much more than that.  To characterize him and his fellows as "totally unreliable" is to overstate their flaws.  By a country mile.

Thanks,

-Smac

I really like this post and yet at the same time it was a big part of me that really would benefit from hearing somebody officially state that the church no longer recognizes “The Miracle” book as the authority on sin. 
It’s ironic that we are talking about a book about forgiveness because my understanding and experience is that forgiveness requires accountability. There are things about church that have scrambled. My brains, and I have had to do some work to unscramble those things. I do hold the church accountable. I have to do my own work to reconcile the church’s part in that scrambling.  
It would have been nice and healing and an efficiency in my journey to hear church leaders, both locally and globally acknowledge missteps. I will not get that.

I’m still here, but only because I’ve done the work alone. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

The big complaint against Pres. Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness is that it was too strident and condemnatory.  And in a few entries, it was - particularly by contemporary standards.  In later years even Pres. Kimball seemed to have recognized this, as according to his son (and neighbor), he "later seemed to wish he had adopted a gentler tone."

It is a shame President Kimball didn’t have a platform with which to disseminate that corrective more widely and he was only able to tell a few people close to him. Real shame.

Edited July 11, 2023 by The Nehor