Faith

[Rain]

There seems to be 2 different kinds/parts/steps of faith.  One is power - faith to move mountains.

The other is a kind of trust - have faith that things are true, that God is there, that things will be ok.

It is obvious why one needs to have the power faith.  Things cannot be done without it.  There is definitely a connection between power faith and trust faith in our beliefs.

This thread is NOT about power faith or the connection between the 2.  It is about trust faith.

We are often told that we are not told about some things because we need to have (trust) faith.

Why? What does trust faith do for us that knowledge doesn't? 

People will probably bring up agency, but knowing doesn't stop someone from having agency.  It didn't stop Satan.  It didn't stop people who saw miracles of Jesus.  You can probably find somewhere in your own life that it didn't stop your agency either. People do things all the time with their agency knowing things are not going to go well for them.

So if it's not agency then why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

20 minutes ago, Rain said:

What does trust faith do for us that knowledge doesn't? 

Back in my early years of fresh new testimony, I had an issue I prayed about.  There were two choices before me, and I thought it was almost obvious which one I should choose, but I prayed about it anyway.  To my surprise, I received a pretty undeniable prompting that I should go with the choice that seemed like the wrong decision.   I didn't get it, but I trusted the prompting and acted against what I thought was the best choice.  Within a week, someone else's actions had the desired outcome occur.   The event was one of a small handful of powerful spiritual experiences that have bolstered and carried my testimony across the years.

If I had known why I was doing what I was doing, the experience would have been pretty boring.

 

I figure another answer, is it helps with enduring to the end.  I've gone through some pretty long term moments of pain, loss, and doubt.  If I wasn't able to rest my faith on the notion that "it'll all be ok given a long enough term perspective", I wouldn't be here.

Edited February 14, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, Rain said:

There seems to be 2 different kinds/parts/steps of faith.  One is power - faith to move mountains.

The other is a kind of trust - have faith that things are true, that God is there, that things will be ok.

It is obvious why one needs to have the power faith.  Things cannot be done without it.  There is definitely a connection between power faith and trust faith in our beliefs.

This thread is NOT about power faith or the connection between the 2.  It is about trust faith.

We are often told that we are not told about some things because we need to have (trust) faith.

Why? What does trust faith do for us that knowledge doesn't? 

People will probably bring up agency, but knowing doesn't stop someone from having agency.  It didn't stop Satan.  It didn't stop people who saw miracles of Jesus.  You can probably find somewhere in your own life that it didn't stop your agency either. People do things all the time with their agency knowing things are not going to go well for them.

So if it's not agency then why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

 

I’ve often wondered the same.

my thinking is, maybe there are some things that we are just incapable of understanding.  Things that can’t be explained to us because our minds and knowledge just aren’t capable of grasping them.  By practicing faith in God in those things that He could explain if He chose to, maybe that’s how we develop enough faith to get through those times, and those really hard things, that He can’t give us explanations for?

[Pyreaux]

The veil of forgetfulness is the test of genuine righteous personalities, it seen needful that we don't have a complete knowledge of reality or foreknowledge of events. Not baseless or blind faith, using the discerning Light of Christ in everyone we can develop a belief in God, and trust his goodness and justice that allow you to act with confidence and faith in an evil and unjust world, when there is no evidence that things will change. If Job knew if and when his trials would end and life restored two-fold, a complete foreknowledge means less temptation which means less agency is exorcized and the rewards are less. Though some do know, like prophets, which means their trials might end up being greater than some, and equally great rewards.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

The veil of forgetfulness is the test of genuine righteous personalities, it seen needful that we don't have a complete knowledge of reality or foreknowledge of events. Not baseless or blind faith, using the discerning Light of Christ in everyone we can develop a belief in God, and trust his goodness and justice that allow you to act with confidence and faith in an evil and unjust world, when there is no evidence that things will change. If Job knew if and when his trials would end and life restored two-fold, a complete foreknowledge means less temptation which means less agency is exorcized and the rewards are less. Though some do know, like prophets, which means their trials might end up being greater than some, and equally great rewards.

Why would less agency exercised mean less rewards? If some only lives to 9 and someone to 99 then you could say the 99 year old had more temptation/agencyrewards than the 9 year old did.  Do you, personally, believe that is true?

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I’ve often wondered the same.

my thinking is, maybe there are some things that we are just incapable of understanding.  Things that can’t be explained to us because our minds and knowledge just aren’t capable of grasping them.  By practicing faith in God in those things that He could explain if He chose to, maybe that’s how we develop enough faith to get through those times, and those really hard things, that He can’t give us explanations for?

So my 5 year old asks how to design a computer chip and my husbans gives him a very basic explanation because he doesn't understand the calculus needed to do it?

[manol]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

At the risk of being overly simplistic:

Imo that which is in the way IS the way.  Imo things which look like obstacles compel our attention because there's a valuable lesson for us which lies in the direction that discomfort is taking us.

So if something is bugging us then imo it's doing so for a reason, and perhaps that reason is something like:  This is the area in which we're supposed to seek.   

And imo we are not supposed to set boundaries in advance beyond which we are unwilling to learn.  In some instances, we may need new bottles for new wine. 

[Kenngo1969]

I don't have a good answer to your question.  I'm sorry.    There are, perhaps, if I bothered to count them up, about half a dozen major questions I have about why certain aspects of my life have turned out the way that they have (or perhaps more to the point, why they have not turned out differently). "Am I not 'good enough' for those blessings?"  "Am I not faithful enough?"  And so on, potentially, I suppose, ad infinitum. 

On the other hand, the Lord and I have had several pivotal, weighty, life-changing, or, perhaps better said, life-anchoring moments for me in which, unmistakably (to me at least), the Lord has spoken absolute, complete, unadulterated, pure peace to my very soul.  It is as though the Lord has told me, "Yes, Ken, absolutely: You may choose to allow what you do know to be held hostage to what, as yet, you do not know.  Or, even in the face of the continuing (but temporary) uncertainty of what you do not know, you may choose to hold onto the 'did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind?' moments we've had together (see Doctrine and Covenants 6:22-23), resting assured that your questions will be answered at length (or, perhaps, resting assured that, eventually, the answers you believe are so pivotal now will cease to matter).  But that is your choice."

As many times as a part of me has really wanted to say, "Screw it.  I'm done.  If the Lord doesn't care enough about me to give me these answers, why should I care enough to keep holding on?  What's the point?", the (slightly) stronger part of me asks, "Lord, to whom shall (I) go?  Thou hast the words of eternal life" (John 6:68).  If I give up the hope of knowing ... eventually (Ay, there's the rub! ), or, eventually, of receiving a recompense, or, eventually, that these things that seem so important now will cease to matter, what else do I have?  What else can I do?  Even in the face of what some may see as abundant contrary evidence, I choose to believe.  If I give that up, what else do I have?  

Edited February 14, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Why would less agency exercised mean less rewards? If some only lives to 9 and someone to 99 then you could say the 99 year old had more temptation/agencyrewards than the 9 year old did.  Do you, personally, believe that is true?

The heavenly rewards are proportional to its difficulty to obtain. That is what Jesus taught about heavenly rewards, unknown why we may suffer and the wicked thrive, we trust God to judge the wicked, and for us he says "Love your enemies... For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?" (Matt 5:44) It is not sufficient to love your neighbor, as it's not as difficult as loving those who hate you. God seems to be able to evaluate what the 9-year-old would have done if given the opportunity, perhaps they already proven themselves in the Pre-Mortal Existence. All will have the opportunity to obtain all blessings anyone else received. The good blessings come after the chastisement of the faithful. Though you don't know why God caused it to happen, only that it means God loves you. (Heb 12:6). If only righteous were only ever and immediately blessed and the wicked immediately chastised, there would be none whose choose to do good of their own accord, no true agency to do true righteousness. If individual righteousness is small, then so is your reward. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Pyreaux

[edvantageous]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

There seems to be 2 different kinds/parts/steps of faith.  One is power - faith to move mountains.

The other is a kind of trust - have faith that things are true, that God is there, that things will be ok.

So if it's not agency then why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

[I'm fairly new to this board -- I read when I can but haven't commented much -- and I don't want to derail or change the direction of your question, so please ignore if this isn't helpful. I'm also happy to delete this post if it brings derailment.]

When I think of faith as a doctrinal or gospel concept, I see it as always connected to Christ. Faith in Jesus.

Terryl Givens talks about faith in the New Testament being often used in the sense of faithfulness, or connected to a commitment to Christ, a faithfulness or loyalty. (An interview on this subject, can be found on youtube or podcast players by searching: "The Many Doors of Faith — A Conversation with Terryl Givens" by Faith Matters.) I hope that adds to the discussion.

[Kenngo1969]

5 minutes ago, manol said:

At the risk of being overly simplistic:

Imo that which is in the way IS the way.  Imo things which look like obstacles compel our attention because there's a valuable lesson for us which lies in the direction that discomfort is taking us. ..

I like that.  Personally, it has been my experience (at least in some cases) that climbing on top of the "obstacle" (with God's help) brings me closer to Him because it lifts me up.  As the incomparable Elder Neal A. Maxwell said once, sometimes there isn't any "around."

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

There seems to be 2 different kinds/parts/steps of faith.  One is power - faith to move mountains.

The other is a kind of trust - have faith that things are true, that God is there, that things will be ok.

It is obvious why one needs to have the power faith.  Things cannot be done without it.  There is definitely a connection between power faith and trust faith in our beliefs.

This thread is NOT about power faith or the connection between the 2.  It is about trust faith.

We are often told that we are not told about some things because we need to have (trust) faith.

Why? What does trust faith do for us that knowledge doesn't? 

People will probably bring up agency, but knowing doesn't stop someone from having agency.  It didn't stop Satan.  It didn't stop people who saw miracles of Jesus.  You can probably find somewhere in your own life that it didn't stop your agency either. People do things all the time with their agency knowing things are not going to go well for them.

So if it's not agency then why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

 

I think that "trust faith" is a binding force or power for unity with both greater and lesser spirits (borrowing from Abraham 3:19), which builds the power, or the fund of knowledge, required to do greater things than anyone, even God, can do alone. 

[Kenngo1969]

I think most of us chose to come here precisely because it is hard.  As a Sheri L. Dew book title put it (I haven't read the book: I'm not sure I'm part of Sister Dew's audience, but the title does intrigue me), "If Life Were Easy, It Wouldn't Be Hard."  

For what it's worth, I'm reminded of this.  I can't say much for how President John F. Kennedy chose to conduct his personal life, but he was an excellent orator:

 

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

So if it's not agency then why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

Where limited perspective exists, faith exists be default.  It is the "principle of action in all intelligent beings", according to Joseph Smith.  It is the source of motivation in all that we do, not just gospel related actions.  We eat because we believe that we will suffer and die without food.  We have experienced hunger before so we have assurances and thus faith that we will be hungry again if we don't eat.  We go to work because we have faith that we will get a pay check and we have faith in the system.  Etc. etc. etc.   We act on belief of limited perspective and assurances.   In relation to God, the fruits of faith gives us assurances of hope and cause us to want to palpate more of the elephant and put forth the effort - it propels us forward. 

The reason he doesn't just give us absolute certainty is the same reason he doesn't just give us exaltation - in other words, I am of the conviction that they are inseparably connected - absolute certainty can only exist with absolute perspective (aka the all-seeing-eye of Godhood).  Absolute certainty, and thus Godhood, are the results of palpating the whole elephant as we are propelled by faith and the resulting fruits of assurances of hope. 

Under the paradigm I subscribe to, He can't give us absolute certainty of anything without giving us exaltation and Godhood and the absolute perspective that is associated with it .  So, we live and walk in faith.  Faith is literally what causes us to even walk. 

 

[Dario_M]

It would be a lot more easy if the knowledge would be just given to us humans. So that we know exactly what we need to do. And what we can expect for the future. Our future. And afterlife. But the world doesn't work like that. It is all a big supprise. We may not know to much about that clearly. Allthough there is a whole manual in the Book of Mormon that tells us what we need to do. And also what we absolutely may not do. And what we can expect for the future if we life our life a certain way. But yeah...is that all true? With the bible the same....is it all true what the Bible tells us. People will always wonder. Or they don't believe it at all. Or they are so sure about it and think (know) it is all true. 

Well in my opinion...i believe that all options are open. We don't know anything for sure. We don't even know exactly what tomorrow will brings us.

I mean...tomorrow i might get run over by a bus. Or maybe meet my future best friend. Or maybe i will find 500 euro on the street. I don't know. Nobody knows. 

And you know.... i find that in the gospel it also works like that, the Bible, and even in the Book of Mormon. A lot of things are still unclear in those books (allthough the Book of Mormon is better understandeble then the Bible i find) but still nothing is for sure. The scriptures are not so clear. There aren't even any garanties that all those scriptures are true. 

That's why i love to have agency. So that i can determine for myself what is true and what is not. What is the best way for me to live my life. Everything is so unclear anyway. God is also not clear in what he exactly expect from us. So why just ... don't live our life. As the way we want.

As long as you don't harm anyone. It is better to just live your life. Because life is allready short enough. And how unfortunate would it be to waste time with things that may be not that important and not even nessesary and prevent you from having fun in your life. Because bevore you know...you get older and maybe can not do everything anymore like a young person does. Or you get sick. Or...whatever you can think of. And then you have wasted your change of injoying thinks you can not injoy anymore. For some thinks you only get one change. And if you spill that change. That will be a loss. 

I wish i had injoyed my life much more when i whas a teenager and appreciate more all the beautiful things i had in my life. But i didn't. And now those years have past by. Those times are over now. They are gone. And i will never get those years back. I have lost them. And i don't get another change.

I believe that the church sometimes also prevents people from living their life till the fullest. Yes the church can be a real support though. I find that that is true. But it can also work both ways. Maybe that is the reason why we do have agency. So that we don't get to much stuck in our believes and our way of thinking. And make them all as the real and only truth. For ourselfs and for others. Because what really is the truth we don't know for sure (allthough some people seems to think they know it all allready🙄) but we must wait till we find out. 

Amen. ✝️ 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Dario_M

[Kenngo1969]

Could what the Savior told Thomas have any relevance to our discussion here?  Those who believe because they see are blessed, but are those who believe even when they do not see even more blessed?  See John 20:24-29.  Just a thought.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

There seems to be 2 different kinds/parts/steps of faith.  One is power - faith to move mountains.

The other is a kind of trust - have faith that things are true, that God is there, that things will be ok.

It is obvious why one needs to have the power faith.  Things cannot be done without it.  There is definitely a connection between power faith and trust faith in our beliefs.

This thread is NOT about power faith or the connection between the 2.  It is about trust faith.

We are often told that we are not told about some things because we need to have (trust) faith.

Why? What does trust faith do for us that knowledge doesn't? 

People will probably bring up agency, but knowing doesn't stop someone from having agency.  It didn't stop Satan.  It didn't stop people who saw miracles of Jesus.  You can probably find somewhere in your own life that it didn't stop your agency either. People do things all the time with their agency knowing things are not going to go well for them.

So if it's not agency then why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

 

I forgot to mention that our faith -- both kinds -- is in Christ. Our power is in Him (D&C 88:7-13), and our trust is in Him. Regarding D&C 88, we are often unaware of the effect the light of Christ has on us and the world around us, but the more we advance because of it, and the more familiar we become of it, we gain greater knowledge upon which to exercise faith and begin to do and receive those things that advance our companionship with the Holy Ghost.

[OGHoosier]

I've got a kind of weird philosophical take on it, and I'm not sure I understand the relevant parts correctly, but here goes. 

The Austrian mathematician and logician Kurt Godel wrote a series of proofs which have gone into history as "Godel's Incompleteness Theorems". These proofs are canonical in the study of logic - they are true, 100%, inasmuch as logic itself has any power. And what they prove is that, under any set of axioms, there will be truths which cannot be proven. 

Any set of axioms. That includes all sets of axioms. Which means that there are truths that even God, with all His knowledge, cannot logically prove. Truth, as Godel observed, is a stronger concept than provability. Axiomatic logic is incomplete. Even God needs faith, which means we need to learn it to be like Him. 

Finally, I don't think having proof of God would take away our choice to follow Him, but it would make that choice somewhat coercive. Power imbalances and all that. I don't think paradise could really be built on that, so we need to learn to relate to God in another way. 

[CV75]

27 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

I've got a kind of weird philosophical take on it, and I'm not sure I understand the relevant parts correctly, but here goes. 

The Austrian mathematician and logician Kurt Godel wrote a series of proofs which have gone into history as "Godel's Incompleteness Theorems". These proofs are canonical in the study of logic - they are true, 100%, inasmuch as logic itself has any power. And what they prove is that, under any set of axioms, there will be truths which cannot be proven. 

Any set of axioms. That includes all sets of axioms. Which means that there are truths that even God, with all His knowledge, cannot logically prove. Truth, as Godel observed, is a stronger concept than provability. Axiomatic logic is incomplete. Even God needs faith, which means we need to learn it to be like Him. 

Finally, I don't think having proof of God would take away our choice to follow Him, but it would make that choice somewhat coercive. Power imbalances and all that. I don't think paradise could really be built on that, so we need to learn to relate to God in another way. 

I've often thought of God's foreknowledge in terms of it being a form of faith. For example, in Alma 32, we learn that applied faith precedes or becomes knowledge, and that knowledge then serves as the basis for greater faith. They function so interdependently that they may turn out to be different forms of the same thing, a name for which we lack (except maybe in the pure language of Adam!). Maybe "truth" as described in D&C 93:24 is a good term for it: "And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come [foreknowlege]..." Every time we plant a seed, we do so with knowledge from past experience that it will sprout, and if not that one, the next one, or the next, and one is as good as another. If we view God's children as seeds with agency, their agency does not change anything about His foreknowledge or faith.

Edited February 15, 2023 by CV75

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Could what the Savior told Thomas have any relevance to our discussion here?  Those who believe because they see are blessed, but are those who believe even when they do not see even more blessed?  See John 20:24-29.  Just a thought.

I think it does because the latter group are more childlike in their faith, which is of great advantage in the acquisition of spiritual knowledge, which is sometimes so deep a part of our character that we begin to see greater things than the first group and go on to believe greater things.

[The Nehor]

There are times I think the veil of forgetfulness is more to keep us from despairing at how far we have fallen.

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

So my 5 year old asks how to design a computer chip and my husbans gives him a very basic explanation because he doesn't understand the calculus needed to do it?

I was thinking more like, that because your five year old has already learned that he can trust his dad through the many experiences that he’s had with him where trust was required and then validated, it is easier for him to trust him in those times where that trust can’t be proven to be valid. 

[manol]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

There are times I think the veil of forgetfulness is more to keep us from despairing at how far we have fallen.

I get the impression that the homesickness from remembering could easily be devastating.

Here is a video of someone who remembers it, or at least some of it.  The link is cued up to start where the veil is put in place, and imo the next five minutes or so of the video are well worthwhile.  His description of earth life as a "high contrast experience" sounds surprisingly like Lehi's "opposition in all things".   He speaks clearly enough that you can speed it up if you want to:

https://youtu.be/7PO-Op38o-k?t=609

edit:  A bit later in the video, in so many words he says "the veil prevents homesickness":  https://youtu.be/7PO-Op38o-k?t=1176

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by manol

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

As many times as a part of me has really wanted to say, "Screw it.  I'm done.  If the Lord doesn't care enough about me to give me these answers, why should I care enough to keep holding on?  What's the point?", the (slightly) stronger part of me asks, "Lord, to whom shall (I) go?  Thou hast the words of eternal life" (John 6:68). 

This, this, this.  Any other way seems to me to hold more emptiness now because it is all empty at the end of the tunnel rather than light, even though I recognize I may be wrong.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

The heavenly rewards are proportional to its difficulty to obtain.

Why?  As a parent I don’t think that way towards my children, the rewards are about showing them they are loved and my need to be loved by them.  Sometimes the littlest effort brings a massive reward if that is what they need in that moment.

Your rule feels more like a motivating pep talk than my experienced reality.  Some of the best rewards have been the easiest to obtain.

It is a good motivator for getting through difficult times though, so I can see why such an interpretation might be viewed as useful by God and so he allows it to stand like eternal punishment, etc.

But honestly I hate it as unnecessary waste of my limited resources for a teacher/coach/anyone to make a task harder than it needs to be out of a belief that the harder something is the greater the rewards.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calm