Faith

[Calm]

Just now, The Nehor said:

So if I go to an orgy this weekend I am potentially going to be even holier when I am redeemed.

Well, I didn’t want to do it but if it is really the only way I can completely fulfill my duty to God I guess I have to. Wish me luck.

Makes me wonder if I am going to even be able to remain sealed in eternal marriage with my husband because I have never had an affair and repented of it.

[The Nehor]

Just now, bsjkki said:

This is a quick way to refute a ridiculous argument. 

It is also slightly dishonest of me though. I was planning to go to the orgy anyways.

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So if I go to an orgy this weekend I am potentially going to be even holier when I am redeemed.

Well, I didn’t want to do it but if it is really the only way I can completely fulfill my duty to God I guess I have to. Wish me luck.

Have fun Nehor! practice safe sex out there.

I don’t think we are competing with anyone but ourselves.  We will all feel as much of the love of our Savior as we allow IMO

[Calm]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

This is a quick way to refute a ridiculous argument. 

There has got to be some miscommunication going on here.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

There has got to be some miscommunication going on here.

I don’t know. It is not a new heresy.

[Pyreaux]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

It wasn’t for no reason. It was because God wanted to win what amounts to a heavenly bar bet with Satan.

Ezra is telling them the exile was meaningless? Poor Lehi was wrong? And Jeremiah? And Ezekiel? Whoops.

No, Ezra deflecting blame from himself and the Deuteronomic law. Lehi left during the Deuteronomic reform, and he violated the Deuteronomic laws. Lehi and sons were temple priests with no genealogy to Levi, Ezra would have put him to death. Ezra thinks he and his scribes of the law are a good people being persecuted by God for no good reason involving himself, like Job, but he was part of the problem, but he's also the one who got to write his version of history and Job.

[Pyreaux]

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So if I go to an orgy this weekend I am potentially going to be even holier when I am redeemed.

Well, I didn’t want to do it but if it is really the only way I can completely fulfill my duty to God I guess I have to. Wish me luck.

As mortals, we have already played the whore against the bridegroom. The question is when you hit rock bottom.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, manol said:

Jesus didn't obey the word of wisdom either, even though he could have.  So it cannot possibly matter in the long run. 

When Jesus was on the earth, there was no "word of wisdom" as we know it today. The "Word of Wisdom" was a revelation from him to us in "the last days." (See below). But there were strict dietary words of wisdom found in Leviticus 11. "The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 'Say to the Israelites...you must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.'" There were also warnings against drunkeness and gluttony. It is reasonable to believe that Jesus himself observed these commandments. After all, he was the one who gave them to the Israelites.

5 hours ago, manol said:

What if God doesn't hold you in condemnation the way the Church does? 

Perhaps, if one does not believe in the Atonement. The sinner is condemned by violation of eternal law, not by God or his Church.

Alma defined the eternal laws of justice and mercy which even God must obey....in a beautiful parallelism. [emphasis added].

In this discourse he explained to his wayward son Corianton how God must be a God of law, justice, repentance, and mercy. He said, "... justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment..."

Quote

Now, repentance could not come unto men

      except there were a punishment, 

       which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be affixed

     opposite to the plan of happiness, 

     which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.

Now, how could a man repent

except he should sin?

How could he sin 

if there was no law?

How could there be a law 

save there was a punishment?

    Now, there was a punishment affixed,

     and a just law given,

    which brought remorse of conscience unto man. 

    Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—

        would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?

    And also, if there was no law given against sin

        men would not be afraid to sin.

    And if there was no law given,

       if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either,  

       for they would have no claim upon the creature?

But there is a  law given,

and a punishment affixed,

and a repentance granted;

which repentance mercy claimeth;

    otherwise, justice claimeth the creature

        and executeth the law,

        and the law inflicteth

    the punishment;

if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed,

and God would cease to be God.

But God ceaseth not to be God,

and mercy claimeth the penitent,

and mercy cometh

because of the atonement; 

and the atonement  bringeth to pass 

the resurrection of the dead;

and the resurrection of the dead

bringeth back men into the presence of God;

and thus they are restored into his presence, 

to be judged according to their works,

according to the law and justice. 

 

5 hours ago, manol said:

I realize that may be an unacceptable idea because it calls into question something about your religion, but Section 89 specifically says that it's "not by way of commandment", almost like the Lord knew in advance what was going to happen and wanted it to be legitimately questionable.  Maybe "it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of it."  Maybe Heber J. Grant made a policy error which has yet to be corrected. 

Yet the same section says it shows "...the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days" and that it is a forewarning given by revelation "because of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days..." Harmful substances coming in through the mouth, nose, or skin will certainly defile a person.

Beginning around 1855 increasingly cited the Word of Wisdom as something all the Saints should observe. After all, it was a revelation given to Joseph Smith. Since many older members had become so habituated to the use of harmful substances that they could not give them up, great efforts were made to instill the principle in the younger generations. Here is a sample of what was taught from Ezra T. Benson in 1873:

Quote

When we first heard the revelation upon the Word of Wisdom many of us thought it consisted merely in our drinking tea and coffee, but it is not only using tea and coffee and our tobacco and whisky, but it is every other evil which is calculated to contaminate this people. The Word of Wisdom implies to cease from adultery, to cease from all manner of excesses, and from all kinds of wickedness and abomination that are common amongst this generation − it is, strictly speaking, keeping the commandments of God, and living by every word that proceedeth from His mouth. This is the way that I understand the Word of Wisdom, consequently we have to keep all the commandments, if I understand the matter correctly, in connexion with this Word of Wisdom, in order to obtain the blessings, for unless we do keep the commandments of God, and not offend in any one point, we have not a full claim upon the blessings promised in connexion with this portion of the word of the Lord.

 

Quote

And, maybe "ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells within you."  Maybe the Celestial Room in the temple is a teaching device which is symbolic of a spiritual level that actually needs no earthly ceremony or edifice.

Maybe not. The celestial room is symbolic of many things. Not to mention it is an essential part of a ceremony and an edifice.

"...if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom's paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved -   I say unto you that the man that doth his, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples." And finishing your quote, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple."

Quote

And maybe God is vastly more open-minded about his creations than they are about one another:

Would this be the same God who said, "I cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven, and he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received, for my Spirit shall not always strive with man?"

Quote

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind"  - Jesus Christ

Would this be the same God who said, "For the gate by which ye should enter [the kingdom of Heaven] is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy AGhos. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life....wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ...and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: "Ye shall have eternal life."

Edited February 16, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t know. It is not a new heresy.

I know. My daughter and I believe it comes in part from a simple mistranslation of Luke 15 where “joy” should have been translated as “relief”, that big burst of serotonin and dopamine you get when the reason for parental panic suddenly dissipates and all you want to do is party. 

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

As mortals, we have already played the whore against the bridegroom. The question is when you hit rock bottom.

I keep thinking I have but then I find out it goes further down.

I passed a balrog a few years ago and it still keeps going.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

As mortals, we have already played the whore against the bridegroom. The question is when you hit rock bottom.

You believe we have to hit rock bottom before exaltation?

[bluebell]

Just now, Calm said:

You believe we have to hit rock bottom before exaltation?

So are we aiming for just above sons of perdition then?

[Smiley McGee]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:30 AM, Rain said:

We are often told that we are not told about some things because we need to have (trust) faith.

Why? What does trust faith do for us that knowledge doesn't? 

why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

 

Great questions; I'll attempt an answer. Though, perhaps frustratingly, this may come down to a matter of how we define words.

I take knowledge in this sense to mean what I believe Jesus was describing in John 17, "And this is life eternal, that they may know thee, the only true God..." I don't believe the knowledge spoken of in this verse is some conceptual knowledge of God, but an experiential, ineffable knowledge that comes by union with the Divine. Until we achieve that union, we exercise faith by adhering to beliefs and practices that we trust will lead us to union with God. To paraphrase one teacher, these beliefs and practices are not the end in and of themselves, they are only useful for a purpose. They are like bricks that we lay down to create a path that we trust will lead to our divine goal; we don't just carry them on shoulders for the sake of having them. 

Stealing the imagery from the wedding in Cana in John 2, we exercise faith as we strive to empty our inner vessel of any corrupt elements and fill it to the brim with pure water, trusting that in doing so Jesus will transform the contents of our vessel into something that will fuel our union with the Divine. 

In short, and in agreement with @pogi (hopefully not putting words in their mouth), faith is what we have to work with until we are exalted, or, I would add, one with God.

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So are we aiming for just above sons of perdition then?

I am thinking as long as we avoid murder we are good (David gets out of hell eventually, but even though he repented there is doubt he held on to his exaltation).

I think I am past the age where drinking and fornicating is that fun, so I think I will start abusing my grandkids and just humiliate those old enough to hit back.  

What I need to know is how long I have to keep it up so it will be seen as sincere sinning as I don’t want to risk dying before repenting as that might get me stuck in Spirit Prison longer than is comfortable. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Makes me wonder if I am going to even be able to remain sealed in eternal marriage with my husband because I have never had an affair and repented of it.

How do you interpret this parable of the debtors? One of the "hard" sayings of Jesus...
 

Quote

Luke 7:

36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.”

Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.”

“Tell me, teacher,” he said.

“Two people owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he forgave the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

Simon replied, “I suppose the one who had the bigger debt forgiven.”

“You have judged correctly,” Jesus said.

Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. herefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—as her great love has shown. But whoever has been forgiven little loves little.”

Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

The other guests began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

 

 

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am thinking as long as we avoid murder we are good (David gets out of hell eventually, but even though he repented there is doubt he held on to his exaltation).

I think I am pass the age where drinking and fornicating is that fun, so I think I will start abusing my grandkids and just humiliate those old enough to hit back.  

What I need to know is how long I have to keep it up so it will be seen as sincere sinning as I don’t want to risk dying before repenting as that might get me stuck in Spirit Prison longer than is comfortable. 

I think I am just going to go with the fornicating myself. Will be nice to dust off my seduction skills. Hopefully they still work as well as they used to.

[rodheadlee]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

You believe we have to hit rock bottom before exaltation?

Everyone has a different rock bottom. 

[pogi]

39 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

Great questions; I'll attempt an answer. Though, perhaps frustratingly, this may come down to a matter of how we define words.

I take knowledge in this sense to mean what I believe Jesus was describing in John 17, "And this is life eternal, that they may know thee, the only true God..." I don't believe the knowledge spoken of in this verse is some conceptual knowledge of God, but an experiential, ineffable knowledge that comes by union with the Divine. Until we achieve that union, we exercise faith by adhering to beliefs and practices that we trust will lead us to union with God. To paraphrase one teacher, these beliefs and practices are not the end in and of themselves, they are only useful for a purpose. They are like bricks that we lay down to create a path that we trust will lead to our divine goal; we don't just carry them on shoulders for the sake of having them. 

Stealing the imagery from the wedding in Cana in John 2, we exercise faith as we strive to empty our inner vessel of any corrupt elements and fill it to the brim with pure water, trusting that in doing so Jesus will transform the contents of our vessel into something that will fuel our union with the Divine. 

In short, and in agreement with @pogi (hopefully not putting words in their mouth), faith is what we have to work with until we are exalted, or, I would add, one with God.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do you interpret this parable of the debtors? One of the "hard" sayings of Jesus...
 

 

 

Why is it a hard saying that someone who has more to be grateful for is more grateful?  
 

Nowhere in that verse is the suggestion that the person who was forgiven the greater amount has the greater reward though. They both are at the same place, have the same reward of being out of debt.  

Edited February 16, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think I am just going to go with the fornicating myself. Will be nice to dust off my seduction skills. Hopefully they still work as well as they used to.

Fornicating is too much work, I think I will just go with porn. 

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Everyone has a different rock bottom. 

I agree. Do you believe though that everyone has to hit it in order to eventually be offered exaltation by God?  Do you think it is a waste of mortal life not to live in a way that you hit rock bottom?

I personally love that the Lord’s atonement means if I repent my sins will be remembered no more, but where I don’t sin I don’t harm others. And to me that is a very worthy goal. I don’t believe there is any harmless sin, even if it’s the pain we cause by our loved ones worrying about us. 

[OGHoosier]

A note about Job, since I love Job. 

I mean I really love Job. I have an almost unhealthy obsession with Job. Job is profound, not just as a work of poetry (it has been called the greatest poem of the ancient Near East) but as a work of theology. It explores two of the central questions governing how we think of God, good, evil, and our knowledge regarding God. 

1. Why do bad things happen to good people?

2. Is worship truly worship if it's based on the expectation of reward? 

Question 1 is not answered by God in the Whirlwind Speech...that's part of the point. The entire book is spent with Job's friends trying to reason their way to an explanation of why God utterly blasted Job. The only option seemingly available to them, given their Book-of-Proverbs "just deserts theology", is to conclude that Job must be a truly vile sinner behind closed doors. Job knows this isn't true - the text makes sure that we know it isn't true - and the entire book is consumed in the friends trying to get Job to "accept" his alleged sins and Job growing increasingly agitated as he maintains his innocence and pleads with the Lord. 

"Then YHWH answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

Essentially, Job doesn't have a fragment of an idea of the scale of the Creation which God must govern. God has created Behemoth, He has created Leviathan, He binds the Pleiades and guides the sons of Arcturus. Job cannot figure out why God does what He does, it isn't possible, even if God were to tell him he couldn't truly understand it...and thus Job is freed from the obligation to try and reason it out. God might tell him, God might not, in any case an answer would be incomplete, and Job no longer has to try and explain it. Job's reaction to the Whirlwind Speech:

"Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not...I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." 

God approves this and then lights into the "friends" for not doing what is right: acknowledging their own limitations and speaking circumspectly about that which they could not understand. Job gets double of everything he lost, and in that time there is no asking "why": Job has learned that God acts according to reasons which he couldn't understand even in principle; his role is to live his part well. Everything he knows of God, he knows by God's self-disclosure; Job now lives by revelation. 

Meanwhile, another drama is playing out in the Court of Heaven. God's conversation with ha-satan, "the adversary", asks the same question as the Akedah: if rewards are promised, is worship anything but mercenary? Satan hurls a challenge at God's feet -  "Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face." 

This is no bar bet. Satan is striking at the very core of celestial sociality itself - accusing God of merely buying the loyalties of men through His blessings. By choosing a singular specimen of virtue as an example, Satan is implying that no man actually follows God out of a righteous character, but rather out of expectation of reward. And what if he's right? Then heaven becomes transactional, an eternal and almighty Ayn Rand thinkpiece. The inquiry "Does Job fear God for nought?" conveys the venomous accusation - even the greatest of God's children follows God for the guarantee of a good life, and nothing more. God now has to demonstrate that this is not the case, and he chooses Job as His champion. In this, Job represents all of us and decisively rebuts Satan. In the depths of his agony, he reaches for God, and his life after his trial is characterized by his expansion of soul and outward orientation. He prays for his friends to save them from God's just anger; he welcomes his former acquaintances to his home and accepts their ministrations (Job 42:10-11).  Like Abraham, he is a knight of faith - having interacted with God, he follows God for its own sake. This is loving God and loving one's neighbor - the two great commandments, ever the core virtue of the gospel, and the only value on which the Kingdom of Heaven can be built.

Thus, bad things happen to good people a) for reasons God knows but we can't understand and b) because God cannot always repay good with good, or else good would cease to be good. Utilitarianism is a garbage moral system for those with ultimate power, as we ideally will have. Gosh, we have so far to go.

I love Job.

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Why is it a hard saying that someone who has more to be grateful for is more grateful?  

I had the same question.  As far as His teachings go, the idea that those who have the most to be grateful for will be the most grateful seems like really common sense.  He didn't even need to explain the parable to anyone because His listener instinctively understood it.

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

You believe we have to hit rock bottom before exaltation?

Is it not logical that everyone exalted on high must have once been low. Repentance means to turn around. 

(Don't think me too stubborn, I am hearing you.)

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

A note about Job, since I love Job. 

I mean I really love Job. I have an almost unhealthy obsession with Job. Job is profound, not just as a work of poetry (it has been called the greatest poem of the ancient Near East) but as a work of theology. It explores two of the central questions governing how we think of God, good, evil, and our knowledge regarding God. 

1. Why do bad things happen to good people?

2. Is worship truly worship if it's based on the expectation of reward? 

Question 1 is not answered by God in the Whirlwind Speech...that's part of the point. The entire book is spent with Job's friends trying to reason their way to an explanation of why God utterly blasted Job. The only option seemingly available to them, given their Book-of-Proverbs "just deserts theology", is to conclude that Job must be a truly vile sinner behind closed doors. Job knows this isn't true - the text makes sure that we know it isn't true - and the entire book is consumed in the friends trying to get Job to "accept" his alleged sins and Job growing increasingly agitated as he maintains his innocence and pleads with the Lord. 

"Then YHWH answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

Essentially, Job doesn't have a fragment of an idea of the scale of the Creation which God must govern. God has created Behemoth, He has created Leviathan, He binds the Pleiades and guides the sons of Arcturus. Job cannot figure out why God does what He does, it isn't possible, even if God were to tell him he couldn't truly understand it...and thus Job is freed from the obligation to try and reason it out. God might tell him, God might not, in any case an answer would be incomplete, and Job no longer has to try and explain it. Job's reaction to the Whirlwind Speech:

"Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not...I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." 

God approves this and then lights into the "friends" for not doing what is right: acknowledging their own limitations and speaking circumspectly about that which they could not understand. Job gets double of everything he lost, and in that time there is no asking "why": Job has learned that God acts according to reasons which he couldn't understand even in principle; his role is to live his part well. Everything he knows of God, he knows by God's self-disclosure; Job now lives by revelation. 

Meanwhile, another drama is playing out in the Court of Heaven. God's conversation with ha-satan, "the adversary", asks the same question as the Akedah: if rewards are promised, is worship anything but mercenary? Satan hurls a challenge at God's feet -  "Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face." 

This is no bar bet. Satan is striking at the very core of celestial sociality itself - accusing God of merely buying the loyalties of men through His blessings. By choosing a singular specimen of virtue as an example, Satan is implying that no man actually follows God out of a righteous character, but rather out of expectation of reward. And what if he's right? Then heaven becomes transactional, an eternal and almighty Ayn Rand thinkpiece. The inquiry "Does Job fear God for nought?" conveys the venomous accusation - even the greatest of God's children follows God for the guarantee of a good life, and nothing more. God now has to demonstrate that this is not the case, and he chooses Job as His champion. In this, Job represents all of us and decisively rebuts Satan. In the depths of his agony, he reaches for God, and his life after his trial is characterized by his expansion of soul and outward orientation. He prays for his friends to save them from God's just anger; he welcomes his former acquaintances to his home and accepts their ministrations (Job 42:10-11).  Like Abraham, he is a knight of faith - having interacted with God, he follows God for its own sake. This is loving God and loving one's neighbor - the two great commandments, ever the core virtue of the gospel, and the only value on which the Kingdom of Heaven can be built.

Thus, bad things happen to good people a) for reasons God knows but we can't understand and b) because God cannot always repay good with good, or else good would cease to be good. Utilitarianism is a garbage moral system for those with ultimate power, as we ideally will have. Gosh, we have so far to go.

I love Job.

A beautiful summary.  I also love Job, and learned to love him more after minoring in philosophy and being asked by multiple teachers to deal with him and the issues that his book centers on.

I also learned something interesting from one of the scholars on the Follow Him podcast from last year (I don't remember which scholar it was off of the top of my head).  He pointed out that while we pretty much always interpret "the adversary" to be satan, he is never called by that title.  Also, it's interesting that the adversary has a seat on the council, so to speak.  In the story he is in the courts of heaven, as you've said, and addressing God in a kind of...I wouldn't say equal relationship but it doesn't come across as a God/fallen-and-cast-out-perdition kind of relationship either. 

They are adversarial but not necessarily enemies in the story.