Faith

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

) It is not sufficient to love your neighbor, as it's not as difficult as loving those who hate you

Or maybe it is not sufficient because we need to love those who hate us and the reward itself is that experience of love replacing hate, not because we get a better reward for the harder things.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, pogi said:

Absolute certainty, and thus Godhood, are the results of palpating the whole elephant as we are propelled by faith and the resulting fruits of assurances of hope. 

We are changed by the act of gaining knowledge into vessels that can hold the knowledge.

[The Nehor]

20 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

The heavenly rewards are proportional to its difficulty to obtain. 

No they aren’t.

[manol]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

We are changed by the act of gaining knowledge into vessels that can hold the knowledge.

Yes but there can be a transition phase (of cognitive dissonance perhaps) before we have new bottles for the new wine. 

[bluebell]

20 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

The heavenly rewards are proportional to its difficulty to obtain. That is what Jesus taught about heavenly rewards, unknown why we may suffer and the wicked thrive, we trust God to judge the wicked, and for us he says "Love your enemies... For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?" (Matt 5:44) It is not sufficient to love your neighbor, as it's not as difficult as loving those who hate you. God seems to be able to evaluate what the 9-year-old would have done if given the opportunity, perhaps they already proven themselves in the Pre-Mortal Existence. All will have the opportunity to obtain all blessings anyone else received. The good blessings come after the chastisement of the faithful. Though you don't know why God caused it to happen, only that it means God loves you. (Heb 12:6). If only righteous were only ever and immediately blessed and the wicked immediately chastised, there would be none whose choose to do good of their own accord, no true agency to do true righteousness. If individual righteousness is small, then so is your reward. 

How does this idea mesh with the parable of the laborers, where each laborer received the same wage, despite some having worked for much longer (and therefore harder) than others?

[John L]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:30 PM, Rain said:

There seems to be 2 different kinds/parts/steps of faith.  One is power - faith to move mountains.

The other is a kind of trust - have faith that things are true, that God is there, that things will be ok.

It is obvious why one needs to have the power faith.  Things cannot be done without it.  There is definitely a connection between power faith and trust faith in our beliefs.

This thread is NOT about power faith or the connection between the 2.  It is about trust faith.

We are often told that we are not told about some things because we need to have (trust) faith.

Why? What does trust faith do for us that knowledge doesn't? 

People will probably bring up agency, but knowing doesn't stop someone from having agency.  It didn't stop Satan.  It didn't stop people who saw miracles of Jesus.  You can probably find somewhere in your own life that it didn't stop your agency either. People do things all the time with their agency knowing things are not going to go well for them.

So if it's not agency then why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

 

What if true faith is believing all man made religions are just that, man made? What if in God's eyes, true faith is having the courage to reject the religions here on earth and forming a one on one spiritual bond with him? Wouldn't that be true faith? Not relying on another person to point you in a direction they have told you is the correct way? 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, John L said:

What if true faith is believing all man made religions are just that, man made? What if in God's eyes, true faith is having the courage to reject the religions here on earth and forming a one on one spiritual bond with him? Wouldn't that be true faith? Not relying on another person to point you in a direction they have told you is the correct way? 

I can't speak for all religions, but in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, faith isn't faith unless it is in Christ.  That might mean that it is faith that Christ sent the Holy Ghost to teach you all things or reveal truth, or faith that Christ has provided prophets to teach and lead, or faith in regards to the necessity of priesthood ordinances and power, etc.  But the first principle of the gospel is faith in Christ.  Not faith in a person, an organization, or even faith in ourselves.

Faith in another person to point you in a direction that they have told you is the correct way isn't faith as the church teaches it.  But also, true faith isn't courage either (whether it's to reject a religious message or accept it).  Courage is often required to act on faith, but courage isn't faith.

Edited February 15, 2023 by bluebell

[Calm]

2 hours ago, manol said:

Yes but there can be a transition phase (of cognitive dissonance perhaps) before we have new bottles for the new wine. 

I see us as the new bottles rather than possessing new bottles…new bottles that are old glass recycled through meltdown, purification and remolding…so there is a heck of a lot more going on in my view than just resolution of cognitive dissonance.

[Pyreaux]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Why?  As a parent I don’t think that way towards my children, the rewards are about showing them they are loved and my need to be loved by them.  Sometimes the littlest effort brings a massive reward if that is what they need in that moment.

Your rule feels more like a motivating pep talk than my experienced reality.  Some of the best rewards have been the easiest to obtain.

It is a good motivator for getting through difficult times though, so I can see why such an interpretation might be viewed as useful by God and so he allows it to stand like eternal punishment, etc.

But honestly I hate it as unnecessary waste of my limited resources for a teacher/coach/anyone to make a task harder than it needs to be out of a belief that the harder something is the greater the rewards.

"My [child], despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every [child] whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with [children]; for what [children are they] whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not [children]. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the apeaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby... let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12)

The rod of correction though harsh in the moment, will be understood in hindsight. A child who received the rod may not, and perhaps cannot in the moment understand why not touch the stove, and only trust and faith sustains them. Our trials are individual, and mercy is individual. Hopeful I will not be as Job or Abraham, yet our small trials are no less, to us.

"Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham... For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified." (D&C 101:4-5) "For he will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will try you and prove you herewith... I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy." (D&C 98:12-15)

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

How does this idea mesh with the parable of the laborers, where each laborer received the same wage, despite some having worked for much longer (and therefore harder) than others?

If the labors seek salvation, they will get equal pay. As salvation by grace =/= rewards by works. The Biblical heavenly rewards are individual as it is works accounted. It may not settle right, we understand the moral to learn from the laborers is it never too late in the day to be called. Even if the labors are seeking rewards, we also suppose the Lord rewarded late comers equal to early comers, because they would have worked all day had they had they been called earlier. We know even death doesn't stop one from works, the missing ordinances can still be done in the last hour.

Perhaps scriptures you might interpret for me if it differs from my own:

"For the Son of man... shall reward every man according to his works." (Matthew 16:27) "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15), "greatly rejoice... for a little while... you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found... Though now you do not see Him, yet believing" (1 Peter 1:3-9), "the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:" (1 Peter 1:17).,"I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." (Revelation 2:23) "they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." (Revelation 14:13)

Perhaps align the parable of the laborers and the parable of the talents. What happens to a slothful servant in the vineyard that does no work?

"The kingdom of heaven is as a man... who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his ability;... Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lords money."

"After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, WELL DONE, THOU GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: ENTER THOU INTO THE JOY OF THY LORD. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, WELL DONE, GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: ENTER THOU INTO THE JOY OF THY LORD."

"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." (Matthew 25:14-30)

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, John L said:

What if true faith is believing all man made religions are just that, man made? What if in God's eyes, true faith is having the courage to reject the religions here on earth and forming a one on one spiritual bond with him? Wouldn't that be true faith? Not relying on another person to point you in a direction they have told you is the correct way? 

That approach is fine, I suppose, if one believes that Christ did not establish a church during His mortal sojourn on earth and that, thus, there was nothing to restore because nothing could have been lost through apostasy.  If, however, one does believe that Christ established a church during His mortal sojourn here on earth, that said church was lost through apostasy, and that a restoration was needed, that approach is inadequate.

In any event, your first sentence is a tautology.  Even given its self-evident truth, its tautalogical nature means that it proves nothing.  Of course "all man made religions are man made."

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, John L said:

What if true faith is believing all man made religions are just that, man made? What if in God's eyes, true faith is having the courage to reject the religions here on earth and forming a one on one spiritual bond with him? Wouldn't that be true faith? Not relying on another person to point you in a direction they have told you is the correct way? 

I think you're right. This has helped me have more faith than I had while active for over 50 years. 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

The rod of correction though harsh in the moment, will be understood in hindsight.

That first set of verses says nothing about why God would require harder labour for greater rewards. That is, as you say, dealing with correction of error.

What makes you think the one who had five talents worked harder than the one with two?  It is often easier to make money with money.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

7 hours ago, John L said:

What if true faith is believing all man made religions are just that, man made? What if in God's eyes, true faith is having the courage to reject the religions here on earth and forming a one on one spiritual bond with him? Wouldn't that be true faith? Not relying on another person to point you in a direction they have told you is the correct way? 

Agnostic, spiritualist and non-Denominational Christian paths can often be the most noble one, if truth in all religions within your sphere are false. If you mean Biblical Christianity is an ideally non-Denominational path, that is not so ideal.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Rain]

1 hour ago, John L said:

What if true faith is believing all man made religions are just that, man made? What if in God's eyes, true faith is having the courage to reject the religions here on earth and forming a one on one spiritual bond with him? Wouldn't that be true faith? Not relying on another person to point you in a direction they have told you is the correct way? 

Did you misread my "trust faith" for "true faith"?

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

Did you misread my "trust faith" for "true faith"?

Oh my, good catch. Are we told in church to always trust our faith? I googled and this is what I got. No wonder this has been a difficult matter Rain. 

https://www.thechurchnews.com/2022/1/2/23218542/general-conference-talks-about-trust-in-the-lord#:~:text=Trust in His love,is for our eternal happiness.”

[Rain]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Oh my, good catch. Are we told in church to always trust our faith? I googled and this is what I got. No wonder this has been a difficult matter Rain. 

https://www.thechurchnews.com/2022/1/2/23218542/general-conference-talks-about-trust-in-the-lord#:~:text=Trust in His love,is for our eternal happiness.”

+1

I actually have an easy time trusting God. It might see cliche, but the trust in the Lord scripture is my favorite by far and I rarely have favorites of anything. What I don't trust are many, not all, teachings about God or about church or about the next life or about how we're supposed to act. I'm trying to figure out how this trust faith works.  What's behind it.  Why it is important.  What if I have faith in something that is wrong?  What if I don't have faith in something that is right?

Luckily I can go back to "I trust God that if I'm sincere and doing my best it will be ok." Others are not even sure He is there, but are very sincere and want to do what is right so what do they hold onto? 

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

That first set of verses says nothing about why God would require harder labour for greater rewards. That is, as you say, dealing with correction of error.

What makes you think the one who had five talents worked harder than the one with two?  It is often easier to make money with money.

Chastisements are Individual tests, enduring the rod well is where the rewards come from. If Jesus promises to pay each person according to what he has done. What does he mean? The rewards are not equal. Why are there three degrees of fruitfulness accounted (Mark 4:8)? Why are there three degrees of resurrected glory and how are they determined (1 Corinthians 15:41)? Are they not variant rewards? As the parable says, if you do a lot with what God has given you individually, you will get an even greater reward in Heaven. If you squander what God has given you; don’t be surprised to find that your reward is much less. The two faithful servants both maximized their talents, equally doubled, and so got the same reward, rulers over many things, where the slothful servant did nothing and received nothing.

The parable of the vineyard workers is about the Salvation of the Jews verse Gentiles. The parable was designed to illustrate the fact the Gentiles (who actually heard the Gospel and entered the Kingdom very late compared to the Jews who possessed it all along), would also enjoy the same privileges and rights as the Jews who were the ”chosen”. This parable does not teach all reward in heaven would be the same. In fact, in the same Chapter 19, Jesus clearly told his disciples they would have a greater reward than others in Heaven.

Peter asked Jesus if the disciples themselves had done enough to enter the Kingdom, and importantly, Peter asks, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” (Matthew 19: 27). Jesus assured Peter proportional to their sacrifice, they acquired in exchange a throne in the Kingdom.

"Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much.” (Matthew 19:28-39)

Edited February 15, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Jesus promises to pay each person according to what he has done.

You are assuming harder the effort, the more effort required is the measure that Jesus uses.  Why not deeper change is rewarded more even if managed in a life changing moment?  Why not measure by what is more loving?  What helps others more?

Working smarter, not harder is more likely to help oneself and others to change for the better.

Quote

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much.

Because it was harder or because their actions changed them in ways those who would not forsake homes, etc were not change?  Maybe it was even easy for some of them to leave their homes because they felt outsiders there while Jesus gave them their first experience of truly belonging and being loved as individuals.

Jesus said his yoke is easy, his burden light.  The whole “I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it” is putting words in Jesus’ mouth he never said (as far as we know from scripture).  Supposedly it was actually Mae West that said that, but I am guessing that is just as apocryphal for her as no one cites a reference.

I think you are reading too much into scripture, filling in the gaps.  

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Jesus assured Peter proportional to their sacrifice,

I think you are too fixed on this proportional thing.  We are, after all, in the end unprofitable servants. 
 

Quote

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

God is good.

I think he cares more about where we end up rather than how hard or easy it was for us to get there.  All that matters is he will provide for us the way, whether in this life or the next.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are assuming harder the effort, the more effort required is the measure that Jesus uses.  Why not deeper change is rewarded more even if managed in a life changing moment?  Why not measure by what is more loving?  What helps others more?

Working smarter, not harder is more likely to help oneself and others to change for the better.

Because it was harder or because their actions changed them in ways those who would not forsake homes, etc were not change?  Maybe it was even easy for some of them to leave their homes because they felt outsiders there while Jesus gave them their first experience of truly belonging and being loved as individuals.

Jesus said his yoke is easy, his burden light.  The whole “I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it” is putting words in Jesus’ mouth he never said (as far as we know from scripture).  Supposedly it was actually Mae West that said that, but I am guessing that is just as apocryphal for her as no one cites a reference.

I think you are reading too much into scripture, filling in the gaps.  

I don't disagree. What constitutes the same amount of effort has variables only to be determined by a perfect judge, yes?

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

What constitutes the same amount of effort has variables only to be determined by a perfect judge, yes?

Why does it need to be judged though?  Why isn’t it just our ability and desire to receive his blessings that matter…where we end up, not how hard the struggle was to get there?  Why make God into an accountant?

Edited February 15, 2023 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Why does it need to be judged though?  Why isn’t it just our ability and desire to receive his blessings that matter…where we end up, not how hard the struggle was to get there?  Why make God into an accountant?

Desires are very important factors, but factors exist. Life is more than sunshine and lollipops. It's as we are told, every word and deed is meticulously accounted for. There must be a reason. Why is reconciliation a part of repentance? God accounts because He seeks to ultimately set the universe right where it's gone wrong. God is a God of Justice, all good and bad deeds will be repaid, repaid in full. Not even mercy can rob justice. Even though Christ took our debt, the debt still exists, and fully accounted for, with Christ as our creditor, as cool, patient and understanding as He might be.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Pyreaux

[BlueDreams]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:30 AM, Rain said:

There seems to be 2 different kinds/parts/steps of faith.  One is power - faith to move mountains.

The other is a kind of trust - have faith that things are true, that God is there, that things will be ok.

It is obvious why one needs to have the power faith.  Things cannot be done without it.  There is definitely a connection between power faith and trust faith in our beliefs.

This thread is NOT about power faith or the connection between the 2.  It is about trust faith.

We are often told that we are not told about some things because we need to have (trust) faith.

Why? What does trust faith do for us that knowledge doesn't? 

People will probably bring up agency, but knowing doesn't stop someone from having agency.  It didn't stop Satan.  It didn't stop people who saw miracles of Jesus.  You can probably find somewhere in your own life that it didn't stop your agency either. People do things all the time with their agency knowing things are not going to go well for them.

So if it's not agency then why is it important to have faith and not be given clear knowledge?

 

I haven't read the thread yet, so someone may have mentioned this. I think there's things we literally can't know without the journey of trusting faith to get there. I've seen this both in myself and with others.

For example if someone had told my 16 year old self that I could self that I could live in a healthy relationship, completely get over the pain I was experiencing from my family situation at the time, and live a fulfilling peaceful life in a wonderfully balanced life I would have looked at them dumbly and dismissed it. There's no way I could know the things I need to get there beyond maybe a cognitive logic sort of thing. And some of it would have been impossible for me to work with, because I simply wasn't "there yet" per se.

 

Trusting faith to me gives that space to grow that straight cognitive knowledge doesn't usually. It makes the knowledge something you've become...which is more the point to life to me anyways

 

With luv, 

BD 

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Even though Christ took our debt, the debt still exists, and fully accounted for, with Christ as our creditor, as cool, patient and understanding as He might be.

What father or brother pays off your mortgage and then requires you to pay it off while sitting on trillions?

Did you not read Benjamin’s sermon?  We are unprofitable servants because we will never pay off our debt to God.  Even if we could repay his time and effort for organizing us into spirits, tolerating us through the preexistence, setting up all of creation to bring to pass our joyful eternal life, shepherding us through mortality and the afterlife into exaltation, by the time we paid off that debt we would have accrued just as much from all the blessings he gives us for our obedience.

Who would want to bear the obligation of billions of humans owing one what infinity can’t pay off?  Being a creditor likely isn’t all that great. So much micromanaging to be sure the scales are perfectly balanced. What if godly justice isn’t eternal indebtedness any more than eternal punishment?  God has already told us that doctrine of everlasting hell for us is wrong, even if highly motivating. Maybe the creditor theory id just as wrong.
 

Being the center of a massive loving family…now that is something I think even gods value. 

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

What father or brother pays off your mortgage and then requires you to pay it off while sitting on trillions?

Did you not read Benjamin’s sermon?  We are unprofitable servants because we will never pay off our debt to God.  Even if we could repay his time and effort for organizing us into spirits, tolerating us through the preexistence, setting up all of creation to bring to pass our joyful eternal life, shepherding us through mortality and the afterlife into exaltation, by the time we paid off that debt we would have accrued just as much from all the blessings he gives us for our obedience.

Who would want to bear the obligation of billions of humans owing one what infinity can’t pay off?  Being a creditor likely isn’t all that great. So much micromanaging to be sure the scales are perfectly balanced. What if godly justice isn’t eternal indebtedness any more than eternal punishment?  God has already told us that doctrine of everlasting hell for us is wrong, even if highly motivating. Maybe the creditor theory id just as wrong.
 

Being the center of a massive loving family…now that is something I think even gods value. 

I think that the idea of Christ as our debtor (in LDS circles) comes largely from Elder Packer's "The mediator" (which exists as a video but maybe was a talk first?  I'm not sure).  I like the analogy but it has some weak spots like most analogies do when it comes to this topic.  One weak spot is that it portrays the debt as something that was easy for Christ to pay.  No big deal at all.  And I think that you've outlined another weak spot.

Christ is our debtor and He does set the terms for our accessing the full pardoning power of the "payment" but like you said, it's not because He is asking us to pay Him back what we cost Him.