Faith

[manol]

2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I don't believe we have to [hit rock bottom] but I believe we will. Your rock bottom maybe way higher than my rock bottom. 

That's a very interesting idea.  I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but... yeah... you've pointed out a pattern I hadn't noticed before.

In the long run, I don't think it will really matter whose bottoms were the rockest. 

Relative to a previous post of yours in this thread: 

I recall reading about a study of muscle atrophy done by a major university.  They took a bunch of frogs and divided them into two groups and measured how far each frog could jump.  Then they prevented all leg movement of one group of frogs by putting bands on their legs so they couldn't use them, while the other group (the "control group") continued to hop around as normal.  After two weeks they cut the bands on the frogs' legs so they could measure how much jumping ability they had lost to muscle atrophy due to not using their legs.

The jumping ability of the control group was unchanged.  But to the experimenters' amazement, the frogs whose legs had been immobilized could jump MUCH further than before!  Of course they soon realized what had been happening:  All during those two weeks, those frogs had been struggling against their bands, with zero outward indication of success.  Those frogs probably thought they were complete failures at one of the most fundamental aspects of frogness:  The ability to jump.  But unknown to them, their seemingly failed struggles had made them far stronger.

Imo we are not wise enough to judge anyone who struggles with addiction or whatever.  We cannot distinguish who among us are frogs with bands on their legs. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

don't believe we have to but I believe we will.

Why though?  If someone is brought up in the Church and listens to the prophets and really takes in the lessons taught as a child, has a great genetic heritage, and was born in a middle income family, couldn’t they live a life relatively free from hardship and sin and therefore have no reason to hit rock bottom or have extended dark nights of the soul?

My younger brother seems to have been born with all the go getter genes in the family as well as being sharp, talented and quite good looking and even magically somehow healthy; his wife is of a similar personality and gifts.  And they both have used their gifts and drives to create a life full of opportunities and development for themselves and others. They also have always been highly active and truly committed to the Church, all their kids as well so far…great marriages, just starting on the grandkids.  He has had good jobs and a great life traveling and living around the world, everywhere they go, they help build God’s kingdom.  If his life were to continue in the second half as it has been for the first without any major tragedy or health or wealth issues, it is easy for me to assume he will have had no reason to have a rock bottom.  A truly charmed life for someone who deserves it, two people who managed to be deeply compassionate of others without having to need that compassion for themselves (minor miracle right there, but it happens).

If we don’t have to have a rock bottom as you say and an individual is blessed to be taught how to avoid poor choices and actually listen for some reason, why do you believe they will hit it anyway?

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why though?  If someone is brought up in the Church and listens to the prophets and really takes in the lessons taught as a child, has a great genetic heritage, and was born in a middle income family, couldn’t they live a life relatively free from hardship and sin and therefore have no reason to hit rock bottom or have extended dark nights of the soul?

You’ve described my mother.  Everyone know she’s going straight to the top, no ounce of guile in that woman.  And zero drama in her life. 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, manol said:

I like MustardSeed's analysis:

Bernard, I understand that the preponderance of scriptural pronouncements justify belief in a fear-inducing God who either imposes, or is himself subject to, fear-inducing eternal law.  Imo that's telestial-level stuff.  That's a rung on the ladder which at one point in our progression is the rung by which we pull ourselves up, but later in our progression it's a rung we may let go of in favor of a higher and a better one.

On another subject:

Imo if God's love is a scarce commodity such that more given to one means less available to another, then indeed it is a competition to see who can work the system to get the most of it.

On the other hand if God's love is limitless, then there is no competition.  And if on some level we are all one, then when you are loved so am I, and vice-versa. 

Do you believe there truly are kingdoms of glory such as the telestial and celestial that you mention? From whence do derive your opinions if you dismiss the scriptures and prophets with a wave of the hand? 

You apparently missed the point of the parable of the debtors. The question is not about God’s love for his children, but rather about the love of the forgiven towards God. In the parable those who are forgiven more are said to love God more than those who are forgiven little. That is a difficult teaching. It’s interesting to read  commentaries on these verses.

If one “works the system,” as you say, with the motive to get more than others, one will surely be disappointed. The Lord said that those who do this already have their reward. The “system,” or better said, the gospel, is faith in the Lord Jesus, repentance, baptism by water and the Holy Spirit, and enduring with faith to the end. “Thus sayeth the Father, ‘[Then] ye shall have eternal life.’”

Jesus said that this is his gospel and that he is the keeper of the gate to eternal life. Is there another way? 

Gods love is limitless, but He cannot ignore sin. “Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, manol said:

All during those two weeks, those frogs had been struggling against their bands, with zero outward indication of success.

And thus came isometric exercise.

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Why did Jesus teach us to pray to God to keep us from temptation?

Why did the Spirit lead Jesus to be tempted of the devil? Sounds like it's His usual modus operandi to lead us into temptation, however. perilous. Satan tempts us, God tests us, but sometimes the two are the same event, hence God allowed Satan to afflict Job and Job was temporally rewarded double everything he lost.

[manol]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Do you believe there truly are kingdoms of glory such as the telestial and celestial that you mention? 

I believe that anything less than reunion with God is temporary, so I think the lower kingdoms constitute "path" rather than "destination".  I don't know what the timeframes look like, nor whether the word “timeframe” is an accurate descriptor beyond the veil.  I don't believe anyone receives anything that isn't rightfully theirs, so I'm what might be called a "long-path universalist".

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

From whence do [you] derive your opinions if you dismiss the scriptures and prophets with a wave of the hand? 

Wow, that's quite the probing question!  Thank you for asking instead of just disagreeing with me.

Actually I quote scriptures fairly often, but I probably quote Christ more than anyone else because I think he taught on a higher level than anyone else.

My opinions arise largely from experiences which I'm still trying to wrap my head around, so my paradigm is still evolving.  My belief that we have no truly valid reason to fear God probably makes no sense to anyone, and I readily admit there's very little scriptural support for it (quantity-wise at least), but I didn't pull it out of thin air.  

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

You apparently missed the point of the parable of the debtors. The question is not about God’s love for his children, but rather about the love of the forgiven towards God. In the parable those who are forgiven more are said to love God more than those who are forgiven little. That is a difficult teaching. It’s interesting to read  commentaries on these verses.

I don't approach God as if I'm in competition with my brothers and sisters for the most love given or the most love received. If you do that's fine with me, and I hope you win!

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

If one “works the system,” as you say, with the motive to get more than others, one will surely be disappointed.

Of course! I didn't spell that out in my post; I was being facetious, which may not have been apparent.

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Jesus said that this is his gospel and that he is the keeper of the gate to eternal life. Is there another way? 

I believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY keeper of the gate, and that Christ is “the way” to an extent I've never seen expressed in any religion, LDS or otherwise. Please do not interpret my disagreements with LDS doctrine and/or policy as rejection of Christ and what I believe his Good News to be. 

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Gods love is limitless, but He cannot ignore sin. “Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 

I am ALL FOR actually DOING the things Jesus Christ himself taught!  Matthew chapters 5-7 come to mind, too much in there for me to quote here; also much of the book of John. 

I believe Christ was absolutely serious when he told the Nephites that we are to be the same manner of men (and women) that he is. I assume you believe that too, though evidently you and I have rather different ideas about the specifics.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by manol

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Why though?  If someone is brought up in the Church and listens to the prophets and really takes in the lessons taught as a child, has a great genetic heritage, and was born in a middle income family, couldn’t they live a life relatively free from hardship and sin?

 

Well....at the end of the day everyone sin. Also those people who you are describing right now. 

As long as we live we will never be free from sins. 🎭 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Dario_M

[John L]

On 2/15/2023 at 3:57 PM, Rain said:

Did you misread my "trust faith" for "true faith"?

No

[John L]

On 2/15/2023 at 3:52 PM, Pyreaux said:

Agnostic, spiritualist and non-Denominational Christian paths can often be the most noble one, if truth in all religions within your sphere are false. If you mean Biblical Christianity is an ideally non-Denominational path, that is not so ideal.

Why?

[John L]

On 2/15/2023 at 3:38 PM, Tacenda said:

I think you're right. This has helped me have more faith than I had while active for over 50 years. 

Leaving any religion that is set up to give all the answers is very scary when you stop following its leaders. 

 To many, a real honest to goodness faith in God can only be felt or lived, is when all other influences are pushed aside and an individual takes the time to ask God the hard questions one on one with a open mind.  

[John L]

On 2/15/2023 at 3:38 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

That approach is fine, I suppose, if one believes that Christ did not establish a church during His mortal sojourn on earth and that, thus, there was nothing to restore because nothing could have been lost through apostasy.  If, however, one does believe that Christ established a church during His mortal sojourn here on earth, that said church was lost through apostasy, and that a restoration was needed, that approach is inadequate.

In any event, your first sentence is a tautology.  Even given its self-evident truth, its tautalogical nature means that it proves nothing.  Of course "all man made religions are man made."

Except for yours?

[Rain]

54 minutes ago, John L said:

No

 

On 2/15/2023 at 11:59 AM, John L said:

What if true faith is believing all man made religions are just that, man made? What if in God's eyes, true faith is having the courage to reject the religions here on earth and forming a one on one spiritual bond with him? Wouldn't that be true faith? Not relying on another person to point you in a direction they have told you is the correct way? 

Then please explain better because I'm not sure what this has to do with my questions.  It seems off topic, but you quoted me so maybe I'm not understanding.

[John L]

26 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

Then please explain better because I'm not sure what this has to do with my questions.  It seems off topic, but you quoted me so maybe I'm not understanding.

First, you said there seems to be 2 different kinds of faith, one is power and the other is trust, correct? I'm saying that's not all faith is. Then you say this thread is about trust faith, and I'm saying trust faith, true trust faith can only be found when everything and everybody is totally forgotten about and a true relationship with God is established by letting everything go including listening to trusted leaders, family, friends and whoever else you trust. 

 To me, true faith is being able to have the courage to realize God is a scientist and we're here on this earth as one of his experimental projects, atleast our bodies are. Physically we're not perfected beings because our God has not learned all he needs to learn to be able to perfect a vessel for his children to reside in while living on one of his planets. True faith is being able to take a moment in time, look around,  and realize everything you're looking at took an enormous amount of time for god to invent and produce. Our world is an experiment, a learning experience for God. True faith is finally realizing one day, that God made this earth for everyone who has ever lived here and the true gospel isn't found inside a man made building. The true gospel is all around you, every second of your life. True faith is letting go of all your fears and reaching a point in your life when you can smile and feel inner peace because you have let go of all the minutiae you have been spoon fed over you entire life. True faith is being able to sit on a park bench and look at everyone around you and realize no matter their faith, their belief in God isn't less than yours because they have chosen differently. And last but not least, true faith is being able to embrace death, to smile at it, not because you checked off a bunch of boxes some leader told you to, but because you were able to conquer the fear so many leaders use to make you comply with their shtick. True faith is a clarity of mind that makes you laugh once you realize how simple this mortal life actually is.

[Rain]

29 minutes ago, John L said:

First, you said there seems to be 2 different kinds of faith, one is power and the other is trust, correct? I'm saying that's not all faith is. Then you say this thread is about trust faith, and I'm saying trust faith, true trust faith can only be found when everything and everybody is totally forgotten about and a true relationship with God is established by letting everything go including listening to trusted leaders, family, friends and whoever else you trust. 

 To me, true faith is being able to have the courage to realize God is a scientist and we're here on this earth as one of his experimental projects, atleast our bodies are. Physically we're not perfected beings because our God has not learned all he needs to learn to be able to perfect a vessel for his children to reside in while living on one of his planets. True faith is being able to take a moment in time, look around,  and realize everything you're looking at took an enormous amount of time for god to invent and produce. Our world is an experiment, a learning experience for God. True faith is finally realizing one day, that God made this earth for everyone who has ever lived here and the true gospel isn't found inside a man made building. The true gospel is all around you, every second of your life. True faith is letting go of all your fears and reaching a point in your life when you can smile and feel inner peace because you have let go of all the minutiae you have been spoon fed over you entire life. True faith is being able to sit on a park bench and look at everyone around you and realize no matter their faith, their belief in God isn't less than yours because they have chosen differently. And last but not least, true faith is being able to embrace death, to smile at it, not because you checked off a bunch of boxes some leader told you to, but because you were able to conquer the fear so many leaders use to make you comply with their shtick. True faith is a clarity of mind that makes you laugh once you realize how simple this mortal life actually is.

Thank you for explaining more.  

I should have stated my OP better.  My questions were in the context of the church and its teachings. 

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, John L said:

Except for yours?

Perhaps you're confused.  I have not founded any religions.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, manol said:

I believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY keeper of the gate, and that Christ is “the way” to an extent I've never seen expressed in any religion, LDS or otherwise. Please do not interpret my disagreements with LDS doctrine and/or policy as rejection of Christ and what I believe his Good News to be. 

I am ALL FOR actually DOING the things Jesus Christ himself taught!  Matthew chapters 5-7 come to mind, too much in there for me to quote here; also much of the book of John. 

I believe Christ was absolutely serious when he told the Nephites that we are to be the same manner of men (and women) that he is. I assume you believe that too, though evidently you and I have rather different ideas about the specifics.

 

Do you believe Christ, in person, told the Nephites that we are to be the same manner of men/women that he is? If so, how do you come to this belief while rejecting his other words to them?

Edited February 17, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[manol]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Do you believe Christ, in person, told the Nephites that we are to be the same manner of men/women that he is? If so, how do you come to this belief while rejecting his other words to them?

Before I reply, just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you, can you tell me which of Christ's other words to the Nephites I'm rejecting? 

Edited February 17, 2023 by manol

[rodheadlee]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

Why though?  If someone is brought up in the Church and listens to the prophets and really takes in the lessons taught as a child, has a great genetic heritage, and was born in a middle income family, couldn’t they live a life relatively free from hardship and sin and therefore have no reason to hit rock bottom or have extended dark nights of the soul?

My younger brother seems to have been born with all the go getter genes in the family as well as being sharp, talented and quite good looking and even magically somehow healthy; his wife is of a similar personality and gifts.  And they both have used their gifts and drives to create a life full of opportunities and development for themselves and others. They also have always been highly active and truly committed to the Church, all their kids as well so far…great marriages, just starting on the grandkids.  He has had good jobs and a great life traveling and living around the world, everywhere they go, they help build God’s kingdom.  If his life were to continue in the second half as it has been for the first without any major tragedy or health or wealth issues, it is easy for me to assume he will have had no reason to have a rock bottom.  A truly charmed life for someone who deserves it, two people who managed to be deeply compassionate of others without having to need that compassion for themselves (minor miracle right there, but it happens).

If we don’t have to have a rock bottom as you say and an individual is blessed to be taught how to avoid poor choices and actually listen for some reason, why do you believe they will hit it anyway?

The first key is in your first sentence. Perhaps those born in the church do not have bands around their rear legs as described by Manol in the frog test. 

I was born out of the church to parents that smoked, drank coffee and occasionally alcohol. Shall I jump higher than those BIC? That is doubtful but remains to be seen. 

 

I would like to add those of us who are not born in the church don't suffer a faith crisis. Many born in the church do suffer of Faith crisis.

Edited February 17, 2023 by rodheadlee

[Pyreaux]

On 2/17/2023 at 5:40 AM, John L said:

Why?

Because truth isn't in Univeralism, there is really only one truth. So, someone will be more correct than others. Organized religion helps to organize beliefs. The Biblical Christians and by extension LDS Christians won't align with your concept, as those were God-made religions. Biblical Christianity was the complete opposite of a non-denominational church, non-denominational churches are the most divided in terms of truth, divided in the name of non-division. The Bible is against multiple sects, so it wants to unify the sects into one sect, to organize, not by organizing a so-called unorganized non-sect, organizing is the solution. Now the wisdom is if all denominations within your sphere are wrong, say Biblical Christianity was true and God-made but now we are living within a great Apostacy in which Christianity is now all man-made (like in Joseph Smith's time), its okay to not associated yourself with a non-true religion, but its just a temporary solution to the problem, but not the ideal solution, it's not the truth, it's just holding out until the truth appears. As a believer in divine authority, if I rejected the LDS and the Catholics, I wouldn't go to any self-admitting man-made institutions of Protestants, I'd be non-denominational but still undergoing a life-long search for a true religion, believing it's out there even if I never find it. As there are more religions than I have time for, without finding the one, or knowing them all, I can't say all of them are wrong, only most all of them. There can be only one.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Pyreaux

[pogi]

4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I would like to add those of us who are not born in the church don't suffer a faith crisis. Many born in the church do suffer of Faith crisis.

I know from personal experience that is not true.  Anyone who has converted and fully committed to the gospel and church is susceptible to faith crisis.

[rodheadlee]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I know from personal experience that is not true.  Anyone who has converted and fully committed to the gospel and church is susceptible to faith crisis.

So you are a convert and second guess your original decision?

[pogi]

Just now, rodheadlee said:

So you are a convert and second guess your original decision?

I should have stated that better. I personally know a convert (a close friend) who had a troubling faith crisis and ended up leaving the church.

[rodheadlee]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I should have stated that better. I personally know a convert (a close friend) who had a troubling faith crisis and ended up leaving the church.

Well I'm sorry to hear that. It would be interesting to know the statistics on that. I myself could never deny that things that Heavenly Father has shown me through the Holy Spirit. 

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Well I'm sorry to hear that. It would be interesting to know the statistics on that. I myself could never deny that things that Heavenly Father has shown me through the Holy Spirit. 

I’m confused.  My understanding was that the retention rate for converts was low.