The Next Level?

[manol]

[speculation]

There's something happening here... what it is, ain't exactly clear...

From my perch outside the LDS church, it looks to me like something may be coming down the pipeline.

I see the Church streamlining its teachings and policies and practices in ways which present fewer hurdles to prospective members and/or current members who increasingly trend towards “the outside of inside”, to borrow @MrShorty's  term.

I see the Church making a point of using its full name, which I kinda rolled my eyes at when the new emphasis first came out, but maybe something is coming which the Church will want people to associate with its correct name.

And I see a whole bunch of temples being built, far more than I would have thought are “needed”.

Always lurking in the background is that (imo absolutely brilliant) deliberately open canon, keeping the way clear for God to “yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.”

So... is there a “next level” of teaching(s) yet to come? Perhaps.

Joseph Smith indicated that we must come to know God on a level well beyond our present understanding, and he also taught that there is a correlation between knowing God and knowing ourselves. Arguably these related areas are where there is room for “great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God” to be revealed.

So... there is a level at which we do that which is good largely to avoid condemnation and punishment, the most pivotal part of the plan being that a Savior has been provided so we can get right before God again even after we have made stupendously bad choices.

There is a second level at which we do that which is good largely because there's an incredible reward awaiting us if we do, whose magnitude and scope we cannot yet wrap our heads around, and we call it Exaltation.

And there is (theoretically at least) a third level at which we do that which is good simply because it is naturally aligned with who and/or what we are... no stick needed, no carrot necessary.

I think there will be new teachings forthcoming in the area of "who and/or what we are", and that the Church will want these new teachings associated with its correct name. And, I think temples may be useful for transmitting these new teachings.

A temple can be a more effective environment than a normal classroom setting for teachings which are largely experiential. By way of analogy suppose I want to teach you the sound of a new musical instrument, and there are three possible ways of doing so: I can describe the instrument's sound to you in words; I can show you graphs of the waveforms and explain the unique mathematical relationships between the fundamentals and overtones of its notes; or I can invite you to a recital hall and play the instrument for you. That third, experiential method might be a role temples can play.

My expectation is that “who and/or what we really are" will naturally be in alignment with all that is good, and that the teachings will involve shifting our sense of identity accordingly. And along the way I think we will come to know ourselves, our neighbors, and God at a level well beyond our present understanding.

My expectation is that it will be as if we each are a Liahona... and perhaps together we become an ocean of Liahonas.

[/speculation]

But I could be wrong.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by manol

[OGHoosier]

Could be. Will be watching this space, as always.

[mfbukowski]

36 minutes ago, manol said:

And, I think temples may be useful for transmitting these new teachings.

Possibly coming VERY soon, I think

[The Nehor]

If what I suspect is true is actually true while I believe additional knowledge can be edifying and enlightening I can see a lot of saints hating it. I don’t really like what I suspect is true.

[manol]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If what I suspect is true is actually true while I believe additional knowledge can be edifying and enlightening I can see a lot of saints hating it. I don’t really like what I suspect is true.

The Gospel = "The Good News".   Imo there is nothing to fear, but there will be work to do. 

Perhaps there will even be Nazis who need punching. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by manol

[manol]

36 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Could be. Will be watching this space, as always.

Anything of actual consequence is well above my pay grade, so I won't be in the loop... but "watching" is probably a good idea. 

Guy says to the Zen master, "O wise master, what is the GREATEST principle on the path to enlightenment?"

The master says, "Attention."

The guy says, "Yes... well... okay then... what is the SECOND GREATEST principle on the path to enlightenment?"

The master replies, "Attention."

34 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Possibly coming VERY soon, I think

Sounds like you know (or have reason to expect) something I don't know!

Edited February 10, 2023 by manol

[Kenngo1969]

14 minutes ago, manol said:

... Sounds like you know (or have reason to expect) something I don't know!

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear ..."  I don't have any inside information, but I do believe that President Nelson has been attempting, and/or laying the groundwork, to prod the Latter-day Saints to "the next level" (whatever that means and whatever it entails) for quite some time.  I have sensed that there are things he wishes to reveal, that "the Spirit constraineth him" to forbear, and that, thus, he is waiting for the right time.

[blackstrap]

3 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

to prod the Latter-day Saints to "the next level"

Hey, I have already been told to quicken my pace and lengthen my stride. what else must I do, leap buildings ? 

[manol]

32 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Hey, I have already been told to quicken my pace and lengthen my stride. what else must I do, leap buildings ? 

I think it's going to be like taking the elevator to the upper level, and then not going back down into the basement with the leaky stinky pipes and dirty grimy walls and where everyone's negativity befouls the air.  And if we do find ourselves headed back down towards the basement, or perhaps find ourselves in it, then we flex our free agency muscles and consciously and deliberately choose again.  I think with time our "default setting" will become the upper level, such that our yoke actually becomes easy, and our "burden" (our message?) becomes light.

But I could be wrong.

Edited February 10, 2023 by manol

[Hamba Tuhan]

As I have posted on this forum multiple times in the past, Elder Bednar was here for a priesthood leadership training meeting about 8-9 years ago. In that meeting, he told us that the Lord had finally finished laying the foundation for the Restoration and that it was now time to build the global Church He intended, one that is fit for all peoples everywhere. He warned us that the process would leave all the doctrines but none of the culture, so if we like our church culture more than we love the doctrines of Christ, we are going to find it hard going.

I'm not sure this is what you are thinking, but I'll agree that something is happening. I can sense it. And I agree that temples are going to be central. Interesting times.

[Pyreaux]

Lifting of the Great Condemnation that has blocked new books from being added would be nice, add the Book of Enoch and a retranslated Quran. Or perhaps once the church returns to its more 'New Age' roots to welcome the Zoomers that are into such things. You like magic rocks? Well, I've got a story to tell you. Get a few testimony meetings with a member telling us what they saw in a peep stone. Or go really old school, cast lots/dice to issue callings. Awesome.

I feel like the time is coming when we may move the Utah HQ to Missouri, ever since Nelson's administration began, it seemed to have some fire in it.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, manol said:

I think it's going to be like taking the elevator to the upper level, and then not going back down into the basement with the leaky stinky pipes and dirty grimy walls and where everyone's negativity befouls the air.  And if we do find ourselves headed back down towards the basement, or perhaps find ourselves in it, then we flex our free agency muscles and consciously and deliberately choose again.  I think with time our "default setting" will become the upper level, such that our yoke actually becomes easy, and our "burden" (our message?) becomes light.

But I could be wrong.

And that, my friend, deserves more than the single rep point I was able to give it.  Come on, People!  Chop-chop!  

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear ..."  I don't have any inside information, but I do believe that President Nelson has been attempting, and/or laying the groundwork, to prod the Latter-day Saints to "the next level" (whatever that means and whatever it entails) for quite some time.  I have sensed that there are things he wishes to reveal, that "the Spirit constraineth him" to forbear, and that, thus, he is waiting for the right time.

I think the next level should be to lead the members to a phase of much more faith when it's turned inward and not dependent on the church. 

[manol]

11 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't have any inside information, but I do believe that President Nelson has been attempting, and/or laying the groundwork, to prod the Latter-day Saints to "the next level" (whatever that means and whatever it entails) for quite some time. 

Yes!

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As I have posted on this forum multiple times in the past, Elder Bednar was here for a priesthood leadership training meeting about 8-9 years ago. In that meeting, he told us that the Lord had finally finished laying the foundation for the Restoration and that it was now time to build the global Church He intended, one that is fit for all peoples everywhere.

I agree with both of you, and would include Elder Uchtdorf among those seemingly engaged in laying the groundwork for whatever "the next level" may be. 

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

[Elder Bednar] warned us that the process would leave all the doctrines but none of the culture, so if we like our church culture more than we love the doctrines of Christ, we are going to find it hard going.

I'm not sure this is what you are thinking, but I'll agree that something is happening. I can sense it.

I think you are absolutely right, that there will be cultural resistance to the doctrines of Christ.  We may have to lay aside some of our old bottles because they cannot hold the new wine.  

And, I am much less confident in my speculations about what specifically is happening than in my sense that something is happening.

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think the next level should be to lead the members to a phase of much more faith when it's turned inward and not dependent on the church. 

I think that ultimately good teachers want their students to become independent of them, so I think you are correct in that the church in its role as teacher will be moving members more towards independence. While I've mentioned the presumed use of temples in my speculation, at some point I think the building itself becomes unnecessary:

Where is the Temple of God?  It is you.

Where dwells the Spirit of God?  Within you.

Where is the Kingdom of Heaven?  Within you.

Who is the Light of the World?  You are, and so is Christ. 

What name do we take upon us?  Christ.

Maybe we don't have the Light of Christ; maybe we are the Light of Christ... but we're temporarily lugging around all this unnecessary baggage (or hidden beneath this unnecessary basket) that we'll need to set aside and step away from sooner or later. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by manol

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, manol said:

Anything of actual consequence is well above my pay grade, so I won't be in the loop... but "watching" is probably a good idea. 

Guy says to the Zen master, "O wise master, what is the GREATEST principle on the path to enlightenment?"

The master says, "Attention."

The guy says, "Yes... well... okay then... what is the SECOND GREATEST principle on the path to enlightenment?"

The master replies, "Attention."

Sounds like you know (or have reason to expect) something I don't know!

Thank God for the pioneers, my children's ancestors, but it was all too much for them to learn while scratching out existence in a desert.

But their mission was to keep the seeds alive, for another generation and I suspect we are it.  We still gotta be that stone cut without hands. And it ain't no rock n roll.  

🤪

Edited February 10, 2023 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

16 hours ago, manol said:

Guy says to the Zen master, "O wise master, what is the GREATEST principle on the path to enlightenment?"

The master says, "Attention."

The guy says, "Yes... well... okay then... what is the SECOND GREATEST principle on the path to enlightenment?"

The master replies, "Attention."

Keep an eye single to the glory of God.  It is all about "attention" - a principle we often overlook and drown out in all of our distracted and busy doing.  I suspect the next level will be less about the heavy emphasis on works, and more about learning to pay attention and allowing grace to transform us.  I have the idea that grace enters through our spiritual eyes.  When our spiritual eyes are turned away, the light of grace cannot enter, but when our spiritual eyes are opened and turned towards Christ, in faithful attention, that is the path that grace enters.   It is not our works that transform us or makes us worthy, but grace.  Less emphasis on works, and more on grace.   Our works become the fruits of grace, rather than the means to it.  I think many Latter-day Saints have that backwards, often resulting in a toxic perfectionism of self-control, which is a distraction of our attention on our own selves, and opposed to the principle of submission.  It becomes about what we do, and less about what He does to us.   Just as faith cannot exist in absolute certainty - grace cannot exist in perfection.  As the great lyricist Leonard Cohen sang:

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

Perhaps the next level is about letting go of control. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by pogi

[pogi]

15 hours ago, manol said:

I think it's going to be like taking the elevator to the upper level, and then not going back down into the basement with the leaky stinky pipes and dirty grimy walls and where everyone's negativity befouls the air.  And if we do find ourselves headed back down towards the basement, or perhaps find ourselves in it, then we flex our free agency muscles and consciously and deliberately choose again.  I think with time our "default setting" will become the upper level, such that our yoke actually becomes easy, and our "burden" (our message?) becomes light.

But I could be wrong.

That reminds me of the practice of attention in meditation.  As soon as we notice our thoughts wandering, we kindly and without judgment, draw our attention back.   That is a good model for life.  We are all prone to wander.  Perfection is not the goal of meditation, neither should it be the goal in mortality.  We should simply be concerned about gently and non-judgmentally bringing our attention back to Christ whenever we notice that we are wandering.  As you state, over time of gentle practice, the default setting of attention is reset to a higher level.  

Edited February 10, 2023 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Nevermind 

Edited February 11, 2023 by mfbukowski

[InCognitus]

20 hours ago, manol said:

So... there is a level at which we do that which is good largely to avoid condemnation and punishment, the most pivotal part of the plan being that a Savior has been provided so we can get right before God again even after we have made stupendously bad choices.

There is a second level at which we do that which is good largely because there's an incredible reward awaiting us if we do, whose magnitude and scope we cannot yet wrap our heads around, and we call it Exaltation.

And there is (theoretically at least) a third level at which we do that which is good simply because it is naturally aligned with who and/or what we are... no stick needed, no carrot necessary.

I think there will be new teachings forthcoming in the area of "who and/or what we are", and that the Church will want these new teachings associated with its correct name. And, I think temples may be useful for transmitting these new teachings.

In some respect, it's already here.  

I don't know if you've seen the new For the Strength of Youth guide that came out in 2022:  For the Strength of Youth - A Guide for Making Choices.  

I see that guide as taking us and our youth to the third or maybe fourth level, which is that we do things, not to avoid condemnation or punishment, and not because of any reward, and not because of who or what we are (although that is part of it), but more about who it is we love:  Our Savior Jesus Christ.

Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf spoke about the new guide in the October 2022 General Conference:

Quote

This new version of For the Strength of Youth is subtitled A Guide for Making Choices.

To be very clear, the best guide you can possibly have for making choices is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the strength of youth.

So the purpose of For the Strength of Youth is to point you to Him. It teaches you eternal truths of His restored gospel—truths about who you are, who He is, and what you can accomplish with His strength. It teaches you how to make righteous choices based on those eternal truths.13

It’s also important to know what For the Strength of Youth does not do. It doesn’t make decisions for you. It doesn’t give you a “yes” or “no” about every choice you might ever face. For the Strength of Youth focuses on the foundation for your choices. It focuses on values, principles, and doctrine instead of every specific behavior.

The Lord, through His prophets, has always been guiding us in that direction. He is pleading with us to “increase [our] spiritual capacity to receive revelation.”14 He is inviting us to “hear Him.”15 He is calling us to follow Him in higher and holier ways.16 And we are learning in a similar way every week in Come, Follow Me.

I suppose the guide could give you long lists of clothes you shouldn’t wear, words you shouldn’t say, and movies you shouldn’t watch. But would that really be helpful in a global church? Would such an approach truly prepare you for a lifetime of Christlike living?

Joseph Smith said, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”17

He adds later, "Is it wrong to have rules? Of course not. We all need them every day. But it is wrong to focus only on rules instead of focusing on the Savior. You need to know the whys and the hows and then consider the consequences of your choices. You need to put your trust in Jesus Christ. He will lead you the right way. He is your strength."

In short, it teaches us to make good choices because we love the Lord and his gospel.  It teaches us to define ourselves not by what we can and can't do, but by who we are and the principles we choose to follow because we love our Savior, Jesus Christ. 

[Dario_M]

13 hours ago, InCognitus said:

 

He adds later, "Is it wrong to have rules? Of course not. We all need them every day. But it is wrong to focus only on rules instead of focusing on the Savior. You need to know the whys and the hows and then consider the consequences of your choices. You need to put your trust in Jesus Christ. He will lead you the right way. He is your strength."

In short, it teaches us to make good choices because we love the Lord and his gospel.  It teaches us to define ourselves not by what we can and can't do, but by who we are and the principles we choose to follow because we love our Savior, Jesus Christ. 

I have sometimes the feeling that whatever you do and the much effort you do to make the right decisions it is never good enaugh. 

Or you sin to much. Or you focus to much on the rules. Or you focus to much on the savoir and because of that you niglect your relationships with your loved one's, friends, family  (a thing i have seen a lot in other churches and it always end up tragic). Family and friends are also important to spend time with you know.

Or other important things you aren't even able to do because you spend your time 24/7 with god and read scriptures all day long and have no time for other things. 

Wich way you choose to do it. You always will do something wrong on the same time. And God judge you about that. He judge us all. 

You can do so much effort doing the right thing. But you always will end up still making a bunch of mistakes and that is where we are humans for.

So...person A may think he is so much better because he follows the gospel so much better then person B. But infact neighter of the 2 are better then the other. Mistakes will be made anyway. Person A doesn't has to be better. Because he will maybe do other things horibly wrong. 

And keep in mind that God seems to be not easy to please anyway it seems like. 🎭✝️

Edited February 11, 2023 by Dario_M

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I have sometimes the feeling that whatever you do and the much effort you do to make the right decicions it is never good enaugh. 

Or you sin to much. Or you focus to much on the rules. Or you focus to much on the savoir and because of that you niglect your relationships with your loved one's, friends, family  (a thing i have seen a lot in other churches and it always end up tragic). Family and friends are also important to spend time with you know.

Or other important things you aren't even able to do because you spend your time 24/7 with god and read scriptures all day long and have no time for other things. 

Wich way you choose to do it. You always will do something wrong on the same time. And God judge you about that. He judge us all. 

You can do so much effort doing the right thing. But you always will end up still making a buch of mistakes and that is where we are humans for.

So...person A may think he is so much better because he follows the gospel so much better then person B. But infact neighter of the 2 are better then the other. Mistakes will be made anyway. Person A doesn't has to be better. Because he will maybe do other things horibly wrong. 

And keep in mind that God seems to be not easy to please anyway it seems like. 🎭✝️

This is why many don't like organized religion.

[Dario_M]

59 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is why many don't like organized religion.

For me there is nothing wrong with religion.

The problem starts when some church people just seem to carried a little to much away. And starting to judge other church members and other people that don't go to church. And expect that the whole world need to do the same thing. And oh oh! If those wicked people only dare to do it differently then us then all hell will break los. Then those people who not wanna obey every little rule there is are the big sinners. And the group of people in the church who do everything by the rules. EVERYTHING (for so far you know offcourse. You don't know what people do 24/7 that also counts for church people (including me because i am also from the church. But i don't judge.) But for the ones that do) they are saints. 😇😇😇

But basicaly they are just to stuck in their ways. And have forgotten that they are only humans. Just like everyone else. 🎭

Edited February 11, 2023 by Dario_M

[MiserereNobis]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:00 PM, manol said:

Guy says to the Zen master, "O wise master, what is the GREATEST principle on the path to enlightenment?"

The master says, "Attention."

The guy says, "Yes... well... okay then... what is the SECOND GREATEST principle on the path to enlightenment?"

The master replies, "Attention."

That sounds way too straightforward for a Zen master. The answer would probably be something like: a drop of rain falling into the mud.

And then the master would hit the student with a stick.

😁

[Kenngo1969]

"Stop, children, what's that sound?  Everybody look what's goin' down ..."   

 What?

Oh.  Sorry.  

I just couldn't resist picking up the refrain from, "There's somethin' happenin' here.  What it is ain't exactly clear."

Carry on!

  

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

That sounds way too straightforward for a Zen master. The answer would probably be something like: a drop of rain falling into the mud.

And then the master would hit the student with a stick.

😁

Don't worry about temple content; until recently it was a symbolic story about Adam and Eve and the rest was taught in extremely cryptic symbols and gestures which pushed one to pray about their meanings.

My first endowment ceremony stunned me, because to me there was nothing "taught", - a few facts, one or two, but it might as well have been in an untranslatable language, which.... it was, totally intentionally!

Now there are far more "teachings".