The Next Level?

[mfbukowski]

42 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

"Stop, children, what's that sound?  Everybody look what's goin' down ..."   

 What?

Oh.  Sorry.  

I just couldn't resist picking up the refrain from, "There's somethin' happenin' here.  What it is ain't exactly clear."

Carry on!

  

Hooray for our side! 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

"Stop, children, what's that sound?  Everybody look what's goin' down ..."   

 What?

Oh.  Sorry.  

I just couldn't resist picking up the refrain from, "There's somethin' happenin' here.  What it is ain't exactly clear."

Carry on!

  

Great song and led to one of the Muppet’s best choreographed videos.

 

[MrShorty]

The speculation in the OP is interesting. I don't have anything against such speculation, but my main reaction to the OP brought me back to the conservative vs. progressive discussions I spearheaded from a couple of months ago.

I have no objections to the possibility of something big coming down the pipeline. I'm just skeptical that our conservative nature will allow us to be progressive enough to accept some big change that might be in the pipeline. Our conservative nature is going to make it so that this (or any other) big thing that comes down the pipeline will need to bump up against our conservative resistances for some time before we will accept it -- for better or for worse.

[Kenngo1969]

So, to qualify as a "big change," the "big change" must be political in nature, or must have political implications?  

[MrShorty]

@Kenngo1969 If you read through the intro to my other thread, I was not using progressive/conservative in a political context. Progressive simply means "open to and embracing of change" and conservative means "resistant to change or preferring the status quo."

[manol]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

... but it might as well have been in an untranslatable language, which.... it was, totally intentionally!

I think it may have been Hebrew.  The pronunciation of the vowels is a bit different, but the meanings line up.  

On 2/10/2023 at 1:03 PM, pogi said:

Perfection is not the goal of meditation, neither should it be the goal in mortality.  We should simply be concerned about gently and non-judgmentally bringing our attention back to Christ whenever we notice that we are wandering.  As you state, over time of gentle practice, the default setting of attention is reset to a higher level.  

YES!!

Whatever the specifics of our spiritual practice(s) may be (attending church, reading scriptures or other spiritual books, attending the temple, prayer, contemplation, meditation, listening deeply to music [my favorite "lazy man's meditation"], being of service, doing our day job with an intentionally devotional mindset, etc.), one result is that our normal everyday "default setting" is incrementally raised.  It's like having a program running in the background that "quickens our spirit" just a bit, and we become more attuned to noticing when that background program has "crashed" for whatever reason, and we need to make a correction and "reboot" the program.

3 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I have no objections to the possibility of something big coming down the pipeline. I'm just skeptical that our conservative nature will allow us to be progressive enough to accept some big change that might be in the pipeline. Our conservative nature is going to make it so that this (or any other) big thing that comes down the pipeline will need to bump up against our conservative resistances for some time before we will accept it -- for better or for worse.

I don't disagree with you!

On the other hand trust in the leadership can greatly facilitate rapid change, especially among an otherwise conservative group.  Consider how rapidly (and radically) the attitudes of most Church members transformed in 1978.  Ballpark four million people changed direction, or at least started to change direction, virtually overnight.  Imo one of the advantages of the LDS Church and the Roman Catholic Church is the trust members have in the Prophet and in the Pope respectively.  They are like the rudders on big ships (well, one smaller ship and one REALLY big one) - it's much easier to turn a big ship with a rudder than without. 

11 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I have sometimes the feeling that whatever you do and the much effort you do to make the right decisions it is never good enough...

And keep in mind that God seems to be not easy to please anyway it seems like.

 In my opinion there is GOOD NEWS!  (The word "Gospel" means "Good News".)   God is NOT looking for excuses to condemn his children!   

The story of the Prodigal Son is the story of each and every one of us:  This son of a loving father thought he had squandered his father's treasure.  But he was mistaken; HE was his father's treasure! 

Likewise, you are your Father's treasure.  Your loving Father made you the way you are and he is wiser than everyone on this planet combined. 

I have the impression that many gay people think God either does not exist or is displeased with them or is their enemy.  I think you are being prepared to be an instrument in God's hands in a way that a straight person never could be. 

If there is anything I might be able to help with, let me know and I will try.  Just so you know, I am neither gay nor LDS, so my usefulness is probably limited.

Edited February 11, 2023 by manol

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

That sounds way too straightforward for a Zen master. The answer would probably be something like: a drop of rain falling into the mud.

And then the master would hit the student with a stick.

😁

In another life I had the opportunity to be whacked a couple of times with that stick. Even made it into a Magazine: (my wife and I are third and fourth from the left. My better half declined the beating)  

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Dario_M]

33 minutes ago, manol said:

I think it may have been Hebrew.  The pronunciation of the vowels is a bit different, but the meanings line up.  

YES!!

Whatever the specifics of our spiritual practice(s) may be (attending church, reading scriptures or other spiritual books, attending the temple, prayer, contemplation, meditation, listening deeply to music [my favorite "lazy man's meditation"], being of service, doing our day job with an intentionally devotional mindset, etc.), one result is that our normal everyday "default setting" is incrementally raised.  It's like having a program running in the background that "quickens our spirit" just a bit, and we become more attuned to noticing when that background program has "crashed" for whatever reason, and we need to make a correction and "reboot" the program.

I don't disagree with you!

On the other hand trust in the leadership can greatly facilitate rapid change, especially among an otherwise conservative group.  Consider how rapidly the attitudes of Church members transformed in 1978.  Imo one of the advantages of the LDS Church and the Roman Catholic Church is the trust members have in the Prophet and in the Pope respectively.  They are like the rudder on a big ship - it's much easier to turn a big ship with a rudder than without. 

  

 

If there is anything I might be able to help with, let me know and I will try.  Just so you know, I am neither gay nor LDS, so my usefulness is probably limited.

Oh my oh my.....You are also not one of those persons who will tell me that i need to follow the law of chastity right??? 🎭

[Dario_M]

18 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

In another life I had the opportunity to be whacked a couple of times with that stick. Even made it into a Magazine: (my wife and I are third and fourth from the left. My better half declined the beating)  

 

That is interested. I see you on the photo.

How long is this ago? 30 years? 

[manol]

10 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Oh my oh my.....You are also not one of those persons who will tell me that i need to follow the law of chastity right??? 🎭

Ha!  No my friend.  I am one of those persons who believes Jesus was serious when he told us to "judge not" and to "love one another."

I am one of those persons who will tell you that you have absolutely no reason to fear God. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by manol

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, manol said:

Ha!  No my friend.  I am one of those persons who believes Jesus was serious when he told us to "judge not" and to "love one another."

I am one of those persons who will tell you that you have absolutely no reason to fear God. 

Thank you very much. ✝️ That means a lot to me. That you say that to me and truly believe that. 😉👍

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

In another life I had the opportunity to be whacked a couple of times with that stick. Even made it into a Magazine: (my wife and I are third and fourth from the left. My better half declined the beating)  

 

That is the weirdest looking bdsm club I have ever seen.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

That is interested. I see you on the photo.

How long is this ago? 30 years? 

21 years!

[Peacefully]

6 hours ago, MrShorty said:

The speculation in the OP is interesting. I don't have anything against such speculation, but my main reaction to the OP brought me back to the conservative vs. progressive discussions I spearheaded from a couple of months ago.

I have no objections to the possibility of something big coming down the pipeline. I'm just skeptical that our conservative nature will allow us to be progressive enough to accept some big change that might be in the pipeline. Our conservative nature is going to make it so that this (or any other) big thing that comes down the pipeline will need to bump up against our conservative resistances for some time before we will accept it -- for better or for worse.

So the “progressive” members may be on to something and have an easier time adjusting?

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

In another life I had the opportunity to be whacked a couple of times with that stick. Even made it into a Magazine: (my wife and I are third and fourth from the left. My better half declined the beating)  

 

 

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

In another life I had the opportunity to be whacked a couple of times with that stick. Even made it into a Magazine: (my wife and I are third and fourth from the left. My better half declined the beating)  

 

I need to know more about this picture! 

[Kenngo1969]

9 hours ago, MrShorty said:

@Kenngo1969 If you read through the intro to my other thread, I was not using progressive/conservative in a political context. Progressive simply means "open to and embracing of change" and conservative means "resistant to change or preferring the status quo."

Okay.  Thanks for the clarification.  

[Dario_M]

8 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

21 years!

Ohy my....i whas 9 years old at that time. I am still from the begin 90s though. I still can remember that time as clear as an....diamand. 💎 Such happy times back then, all those years ago.

But anywhy that photo looks amazing man. What where you guys doing on there actually? Meditating? 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Dario_M

[2BizE]

Perhaps Pres. Nelson has taken the magic rock out of the special vault, dusted off an old white top hat and is ready to provide us new teachings or translations.  It could happen…

[SeekingUnderstanding]

11 hours ago, Peacefully said:

 

I need to know more about this picture! 

 

6 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Ohy my....i whas 9 years old at that time. I am still from the begin 90s though. I still can remember that time as clear as an....diamand. 💎 Such happy times back then, all those years ago.

But anywhy that photo looks amazing man. What where you guys doing on there actually? Meditating? 

My wife minored in Japanese and landed a 6 month internship working for a small manufacturer in the Japanese countryside near Nagoya. I (on a spousal visa) worked as an illegal immigrant laborer in the factory. The company president was a flamboyant and friendly guy and he invited us to a photoshoot with the mayor at a meditation session. They really swing that stick, not gonna lie. 

[Navidad]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:59 AM, pogi said:

Our works become the fruits of grace, rather than the means to it.

Amen!

[Navidad]

I believe the greatest challenges to a new and different level will be two: Accurate differentiation between doctrine and culture and accurate differentiation between doctrine and dogma. I say this as one who lived through trauma during such a change in the Mennonite Church. I see the same challenge ahead for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. When doctrine sheds culture and dogma it becomes redemptive, full of grace, and appealing to a broad swath of humanity.

Culture is not the gospel; but can interpret, define and even pervade the gospel in a specific tightly controlled hierarchy and society. Dogma is not the gospel but in a broad sense is "any belief held unquestioningly and with undefended certainty." To this point in my limited sojourn in an LDS community, I find it to be limited by culture and dogma confused as doctrine. So it was with my childhood and youth in the Mennonite church. So it is today in non-LDS Fundamentalism. If it happens (whatever it is) The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will emerge as a different, but perhaps better church. We may see more split-offs, and divisions from those who don't want to get on the elevator because they cannot or perhaps simply will not distinguish or differentiate doctrine from its two imitators - culture and dogma. Sixty years after such a transformation, there are many who think the Mennonite church is a much better place to be. Of course there are those as well who absolutely believe it has lost its way.

I believe the LDS church witnessed a single subject version of this from 1890 to the 1920s. If it comes again in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I believe something is coming - I will watch with great interest and hope.

[Tacenda]

18 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

In another life I had the opportunity to be whacked a couple of times with that stick. Even made it into a Magazine: (my wife and I are third and fourth from the left. My better half declined the beating)  

 

My son and DIL volunteered in Thailand and my son got the whacking stick, haha. 

[MrShorty]

15 hours ago, Peacefully said:

So the “progressive” members may be on to something and have an easier time adjusting?

I'm not sure I'm seeing this on an individual member basis. I'm more seeing this at the scale of the church as a whole. On an individual scale, I think "progressive" members might have an easier time with this hypothetical future change, but they also might get bogged down in the changes they think should happen that they fail to accept the actual changes the God might try to bring to the church. "Progressive" members will have an easier time if they also have the humility to accept the changes God imposes on the church without getting hung up on changes they think God should impose on the church.

[CV75]

53 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I'm not sure I'm seeing this on an individual member basis. I'm more seeing this at the scale of the church as a whole. On an individual scale, I think "progressive" members might have an easier time with this hypothetical future change, but they also might get bogged down in the changes they think should happen that they fail to accept the actual changes the God might try to bring to the church. "Progressive" members will have an easier time if they also have the humility to accept the changes God imposes on the church without getting hung up on changes they think God should impose on the church.

I think that people with either progressive or conservative tendencies will do better when they are humble to accept God’s changes and not get bogged down in the changes they think should or shouldn’t happen or hung up on changes they think God should or shouldn’t reveal to the Church. This of course includes the earthly administrators chosen for the Lord’s kingdom, who I believe represent a cross-sectional range of tendencies and are well-exercised in this kind of humility.

As far as the institution itself, the Church was set up to preserve law, a conservative purpose (D&C 88: 34). But the return of the keys to earthly administrators restored a system of ongoing [progressive] restoration and new “things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent…” [progressive] (D&C 128:18). Depending on one’s tendency or perspective, this restoration can be seen as either progressive or conservative, much as “new and everlasting” can be.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I believe the greatest challenges to a new and different level will be two: Accurate differentiation between doctrine and culture and accurate differentiation between doctrine and dogma

Nope.

There there's nothing to be "accurate" to. 

 We don't have sola scriptura because personal revelation trumps scripture. Moroni 10, James 1 etc. 

THAT has to be understood. 

Aquinas Aristotle and Plato are not compatible with personal revelation, and The Church of Jesus Christ is based on personal revelation.

What is needed is INTERPRETIVE differentiation between doctrine and culture and INTERPRETIVE differentiation between doctrine and dogma, and concentration on personal  revelation. We need to be able to spot the difference between dogma, culture, all texts, against the direct experiences of the spirit in guiding each of us individually.

An understanding of hermeneutics/interpretation is what we need, with the only standard being our consciences.

We present a paradigm that we see through a glass darkly, the goal is to find the "face to face" by seeing that image of Christ constantly before us.

Emulation of Christ as guided by the spirit is what we need instead of worrying about Noah and the flood, and see that that story's importance is about following the spirit no matter what, for example.

Progression requires new interpretations of old stories, not hammering those stories into gods made of stone.

The only dogma is change itself, toward perfection in becoming like Christ.

HIS is the HIS-STORY we need, nothing more, nothing less, the moving vehicle being the spirit and our hearts to guide us.