The Pursuit of Happiness

[The Nehor]

Wait…..so if sin makes me happy it can’t be sin.

I’ve been doing this wrong the whole time?!?!?!?!?!?!

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

“Every dead body on Mt. Everest was once a highly motivated person, so… maybe calm down.”

I like this one. 

It feels like a good reminder to rethink the culture I grew up in.

I always envisioned happiness as a reward at the top of Everest - symbolic of conquering my weakness and imperfections and overcoming all temptations in obedience as I improve daily towards perfection.  That desperate clamoring to the top almost broke me.  I thought happiness would come with control of my behavior.  I just need to try harder!  God will bless me for my efforts with happiness.  It didn't work!  My soul was practically one of those dead bodies on the slopes of Everest.  It simply didn't work.   It didn't matter how often I read the scriptures, how quickly I repented, how much I magnified my callings, served where I could, gave all I had to the building of the kingdom of God, and was valiant in every possible way in striving for perfection in obedience.

To clarify for those who may be confused by what I am saying.  I am not suggesting that obedience is not important, or that the commandments are not important.  What I am suggesting is that happiness is not the result of a successful completing of a check-box of commandments list.   When I stopped striving for perfection, as I thought the church taught, and instead looked inward, I discovered that there were other sources for my unhappiness that I had not recognized because I was so busy and laser-focused on doing my way to happiness.  I was so focused on external works and self-improvement through behavior modification/control that it blinded me from the core issues I was suffering from - and it wasn't disobedience or wickedness that was the source of my unhappiness at all!  

While I discovered the source and the root cause of my unhappiness, I still was culturally oriented towards the need to overcome in order to be happy.  If I could just overcome these root issues...then I'll be happy! 

Long story short, I learned that all of this doing was distracting me from being happy, despite my imperfections and short-comings.  I learned that God and happiness were there inside of me all along waiting for me to be still and give them attention, but I was too distracted in searching for them "out there".    

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This. Endlessly ticking 'commandment' boxes without love for God as the driving force is both mind-numbing and soul-destroying and leads to burn-out.

Likewise, endlessly trying to 'serve' others without authentically loving them has the same result.

 

But starting off it may have to be that way so one can open oneself up to the love of God they haven’t felt before.  The hope is as someone is more obedient, they learn to recognize love and happiness as they feel it for others they sacrifice for and serve (giving something you don’t want to give up) turns to obedience (doing something because you are told to do it by someone you see as an authority over you) that turns to love (doing something because you care about the well-being or happiness of the other).

Edited January 18, 2023 by Calm

[pogi]

39 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Since the gospel is for every kind of personality, I think this kind of misery, and its opposites (passiveness, apathy), are but two of many. Evidently this kind of misery is of great interest since it comes up quite a bit. One item in the introductory pages of Come Follow Me sets the desired tone for the Church: Conversion Is Our Goal (churchofjesuschrist.org)

“…we should first and foremost seek the companionship of the Spirit [in my opinion, evidenced by having love for God]. This goal should govern our choices and guide our thoughts and actions. We should seek after whatever invites the influence of the Spirit and reject whatever drives that influence away—for we know that if we can be worthy of the presence of the Holy Ghost, we can also be worthy to live in the presence of Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ [whom we love].”

If any of this, or similar messages in Church media, produce misery (in this case, fear or anxiety for anyone prone to perfectionism), they have people around them -- since the gospel is for every kind of personality, some of whom are oriented to interpret such messages [as bracketed] -- that can help them recognize the influence of the Spirit, which they have a right to access, and drive away the influences for unhappiness.

On the whole, I think the different intermingling personalities can be mutually beneficial when bonded together in love. I've seen some people glory in their endearing need for grace, but they would be happier if they were helped to find it.

It is this idea of being "worthy" to have the presence of the Holy Ghost that gets tricky and I think is often misinterpreted.  I think worthiness is often taught as being without sin.  We need to do our way to becoming worthy of the spirit through our external works.  I no longer believe that.   The Spirit has taught me that I am always worthy whenever I turn to the Lord inwardly and sit with Him in the quiet of my heart.   Every. Single. Time.  He is there.  Regardless of how sinful I have been that day.  Regardless of how many mistakes I made.  Regardless if I did my home-teaching for the month or not.  Etc. Etc.  As soon as we give Him our attention, we will find Him there waiting for us.  Our attention, our turning to Him, that is what makes us worthy of His influence and presence.         

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

But starting off it may have to be that way so one can open oneself up to the love of God they haven’t felt before.

Yes, it certainly can (and often does) progress that way, but it's not guaranteed, and there is risk (without guidance/correction) that people can get stuck in mere box-ticking mode.

I always know I'm moving in that direction if what I'm doing stops feeling joyful and starts feeling burdensome. The Holy Ghost is a great guide, and the Atonement is a sweet release throughout this process!

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

Our attention, our [re]turning to Him, that is what makes us worthy of His influence and presence.         

This is literally the definition of repentance.

Quote

I think worthiness is often taught as being without sin.

Then no one would enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost. Ever. I can't imagine why anyone would try to teach such a thing, but certainly personal experience with the Spirit should demonstrate its falsity?

Obviously, we can know that we are 'worthy' of His companionship when we have His companionship. As Elder Oaks taught in a regional YSA fireside that I attended some years ago, it's not our job to decide if God wants us in His presence, and we are foolish to step back from that invitation because we don't think we deserve it.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Hamba Tuhan

[smac97]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I watched this documentary on Netflix about the mission and combined efforts to inspire joy by Arch Bishop Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama.   I found it very inspirational and it got me thinking a lot about joy and our own doctrines about it: 

Joy/happiness seems to be the central purpose of our existence, according to our doctrine:

“Men are, that they might have joy” (2 Nephi 2:15, 25).

The Prophet Joseph stated, “Happiness is the object and design of our existence"

God's plan for our salvation is often called “the great plan of happiness” (Alma 42:8).

Joy and happiness are often used interchangeably, as seen in the above quotes.  Often joy is described as an overall undercurrent and grounding sense of well-being and life satisfaction that endures the ups and downs of life, while happiness is a more fleeting experience in the moment that comes and goes.   I am assuming that under these descriptions, the ultimate purpose and object of life is the more enduring joy which can bring increased experience of happiness as well.  

With joy being the ultimate purpose of our existence it seems rather important to talk about and discuss what it is, how we receive it, and how to be fulfilled in that ultimate purpose of existence.

What are your thoughts?

"Amen" to pretty much everything you have said so far.

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I have done some study on this subject in relation to what our church teaches, and find one overarching principle whenever joy/happiness is discussed and taught - that obedience to the commandments = joy.

Happiness is defined in the Book of Mormon by the prophet-king Benjamin as “the blessed and happy state of those [that] keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual."   

In that description happiness, or joy, seems to be transactional in nature, with undertones of prosperity gospel.

I respectfully disagree with this assessment in at least three respects.

First, I don't see this description as transactional, but rather consequential.  By way of analogy: If I choose to live a life of profligacy and indolence, with no thought to my physical health and well-being, then my choices will have foreseeable consequences.  If I eat unhealthy types and/or quantities of food, use/abuse harmful substances, etc. my physical health will be adversely affected.  Conversely, if I eat healthy and appropriate quantities of food, and exercise, hydrate, rest, etc., I will reap benefits. 

This is not a "transaction" or a quid pro quo.  It is, instead, a manifestation of the consequences of choice.  Regarding the blessings of the Gospel, I think the calculus is not really that different.  "I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."  (D&C 82:10.)  The Lord is "bound" by eternal laws and principles.  "{T}ere is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment."  (Alma 42:22.)  If He were to deviate from these laws, He would "cease to be God."  (Alma 42:13, 22–23, 25; Morm. 9:19.)

In my view, "transactional in nature" connotes an element of arbitrariness, whereas "consequential in nature" does not.  If I jump off a 500-foot cliff, my subsequent status as an ugly pancake at the foot of the cliff will not arise by my having "transacted" with gravity, but rather by my choice to disregard consequences.

Second, "transactional in nature" does not, I think, account for the role of mercy/grace in the Plan of Salvation.  If there were, as noted above, "a law given, and a punishment affixed," and no provision made for Christ's atoning sacrifice, then we would all be in big trouble.  Instead, "mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice."  (Alma 42:23.)

Third, I also cannot agree with the "transactional in nature" characterization because the Lord's dealings with us are lopsided in the extreme.  What He does relative to what we are called upon to do have no comparison.  What we give to God is a broken heart and a contrite spirit.  What He gives to us is life eternal.  And the former does not purchase the latter.  Consider Stephen Robinson's Parable of the Bicycle:

Quote

As my wife and I talked that night about feelings of inadequacy, I groped for some way to help. I finally remembered something that had happened a couple of months earlier. In our home it is now called the parable of the bicycle.

I was sitting in a chair reading. My daughter, Sarah, who was seven years old at the time, came in and said, “Dad, can I have a bike? I’m the only kid on the block who doesn’t have one.”

Well, I didn’t have the money then for a bike, so I stalled her. I said, “Sure, Sarah.”

She said, “How? When?”

I said, “You save all your pennies, and soon you’ll have enough for a bike.” And she went away.

A couple ofs weeks later I was sitting in the same chair when I heard a “clink, clink” in Sarah’s bedroom. I asked, “Sarah, what are you doing?”

She came to me with a little jar, a slit cut in the lid, and a bunch of pennies in the bottom. She said, “You promised me that if I saved all my pennies, pretty soon I’d have enough for a bike. And, Daddy, I’ve saved every single one of them.”

My heart melted. My daughter was doing everything in her power to follow my instructions. I hadn’t actually lied to her. If she saved all of her pennies, she would eventually have enough for a bike, but by then she would want a car. I said, “Let’s go look at bikes.”

We went to every store in town. Finally we found it—the perfect bicycle. She was thrilled. Then she saw the price tag, and her face fell. She started to cry. “Oh, Dad, I’ll never have enough for a bicycle!”

So I said, “Sarah, how much do you have?”

She answered, “Sixty-one cents.”

“I’ll tell you what. You give me everything you’ve got and a hug and a kiss, and the bike is yours.” Then I drove home very slowly because she insisted on riding the bike home.

As I drove beside her, I thought of the atonement of Christ. We all desperately want the celestial kingdom. We want to be with our Father in Heaven. But no matter how hard we try, we come up short. At some point all of us must realize, “I can’t do this by myself. I need help.” Then it is that the Savior says, in effect, All right, you’re not perfect. But what can you do? Give me all you have, and I’ll do the rest.

He still requires our best effort. We must keep trying. But the good news is that having done all we can, it is enough. We may not be personally perfect yet, but because of our covenant with the Savior, we can rely on his perfection, and his perfection will get us through.

I have noted that Bro. Robinson does not address what he did with the sixty-one cents. Did he use these pennies as part of the purchase of the bike, or did he pocket them and pay for the entirety of the bike out of his own wallet / checking account?  I suspect that omission was intentional, as it avoids the potential how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin sort of discussion/debate about whether the daughter's "sixty-one cents" was actually part of the purchase price.

In the end, I'm inclined to believe that 2 Nephi 25:23's declaration that "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" is intended to reflect God's benevolence and warmth and generosity.  "{H}is perfection will get us through."

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I have known many members who have fallen victim to the belief that if they can just work harder, be more obedient, sacrifice more of themselves and their time for the benefit of others, put their shoulder more to the wheel, be more perfect in following the commandments that they will become more joyful and happy in mortality.  It doesn't always work, and can even have pretty terrible consequences on well-being overall.  Is the promised joy for obedience only a promise for the next life, or does the promise extend to mortality as well?

I think there is often, though not always, some truth to blessings coming in the here and now and in the future.  Obedience to the Law of Chastity , for example, brings both immediate and long-term blessings.  "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated — And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."  (D&C 130:20-21.)  Nevertheless, "see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength."  (Mosiah 4:27.)  

There are many instances in which I can draw a relatively straight line between obedience and a blessing.  I have found much happiness and safety in, for example, keeping the Word of Wisdom and the Law of Chastity.  The problem, I think, arises when we inflict ourselves with "blindness" by "looking beyond the mark" (Jacob 4:14) by thinking of obedience as a "transactional in nature" way rather than a "consequential in nature" way.  The exhortation in John 14:15 is "If ye love me, keep my commandments."  Joy and happiness will come in measures and by timing determined by God.  Meanwhile, our purpose in obedience ought to be, above all, because we love the Lord.  

5 hours ago, pogi said:

My personal feeling is that joy, as a state of mind, is more about internal perspective and thought processes - it is generated more from how we see/interpret the world and our experience in it.  Sometimes obedience can influence the way we perceive the world for the better and thus improve joy, but it doesn't seem to always work that way.  My question is should we be emphasizing external actions of obedience in order to find happiness, or would it be more efficacious to emphasize the nurturing of our inner world/perceptions to improve external behavior and happiness?

Or door number three: We should be emphasizing both.  I do not find them in conflict.

5 hours ago, pogi said:

That is why psilocybin is thought to be as effective as it is in improving happiness/joy/well-being after just one dose - because it works to have long-term effects on our thought processes and how we perceive the world and our place in it.  The results can be pretty remarkable and seem to result in long-term joy rather than fleeting happiness, and no obedience to commandments are required.

Drug-induced "joy" will always, in the end, be a poor knock-off of the real deal.

I am a husband to a wonderful woman and a father to six wonderful kids.  I could, I suppose, forsake all my obligations to them.  I could abuse or neglect them.  I could divorce my wife and abandon her and my kids in favor of a "riotous living" lifestyle.  And if I were ever to feel a twinge of regret or remorse, I could dose myself with booze, or shrooms, or whatever to help me smother such inconvenient feelings.  And it just might work.  I might be able to proceed guilt-free in my self-centered hedonism by using mind-altering substances to, well, alter my mind.  But sooner or later I would have to give up this tabernacle of clay, and thereafter "the day cometh that {I} shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to {my} works."  (Alma 11:41.)  I suspect Pres. McKay's description of a part of the process will be proven largely accurate:

Quote

Brethren, that some day you will have a personal priesthood interview with the Savior himself. If you are interested, I will tell you the order in which he will ask you to account for your earthly responsibilities.

First, he will request an accountability report about your relationship with your wife. Have you actively been engaged in making her happy and ensuring that her needs have been met as an individual?

Second, he will want an accountability report about each of your children individually. He will not attempt to have this for simply a family stewardship but will request information about your relationship to each and every child.

Third, he will want to know what you personally have done with the talents you were given in the preexistence.

Fourth, he will want a summary of your activity in your Church assignments. He will not be necessarily interested in what assignments you have had, for in his eyes the home teacher and a mission president are probably equals, but he will request a summary of how you have been of service to your fellow man in your Church assignments.

Fifth, he will have no interest in how you earned your living but if you were honest in all your dealings.

Sixth, he will ask for an accountability on what you have done to contribute in a positive manner to your community, state, country, and the world.

There won't be any Magic Mushrooms around then.  Nothing to help me evade being "harrowed up by the memory of my many sins" (Alma 36:17).

The Latter-day Saints can, of course, err in the way you describe ("if they can just work harder, be more obedient, sacrifice more of themselves and their time for the benefit of others, put their shoulder more to the wheel, be more perfect in following the commandments that they will become more joyful and happy in mortality").  But then, unrealistic perspectives regarding, or the evasion of, the principle of obedience can also have some - as you put it - "pretty terrible consequences on well-being overall."

5 hours ago, pogi said:

However, it does have the effect of influencing many to live and practice a more spiritually oriented life.  By changing their internal environment, their external behaviors are improved.   Meditation has been shown to have similar results to psilocybin but with more work and discipline required to improving our internal world/perspectives/mind-set. 

My wife has found meditation to be very useful.  

5 hours ago, pogi said:

By chasing happiness/joy by improving obedience, I can see how this might lead to harmful perfectionistic tendencies and self-shaming mindset when happiness/joy is not achieved despite sacrificing all that they have in them to give to obedience.  I think of the way the church teaches joy/happiness a lot like my experience in addiction recovery.  The focus for many is on sobriety.  That is the ultimate goal.  If we can just be sober, we will be happy.  That is what I thought for many years.  I had perfect sobriety for several years on my mission and post mission.  What I found is that it didn't make me happier.  Instead, I simply practiced different unhealthy coping mechanisms that leaned towards perfectionism.  In other words, I didn't find healing and happiness/joy until I stopped focusing on doing better and being more obedient/perfect in sobriety and instead focused on healing my internal world.  As a result, sobriety came without other maladaptive coping mechanisms to take its place.   I see the pursuit of happiness much in the same way.  Change your inner world to improve happiness/joy, and improved obedience to the commandments will be a more likely result. 

I am not quite sure how to form this into a cohesive thought or question, but hope that it can generate some thoughts for discussion.  

Wonderful words here.  Happiness is, in so many ways, a choice.  The choice involves both obedience and perspective.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

50 minutes ago, pogi said:

It is this idea of being "worthy" to have the presence of the Holy Ghost that gets tricky and I think is often misinterpreted.  I think worthiness is often taught as being without sin.  We need to do our way to becoming worthy of the spirit through our external works.  I no longer believe that.   The Spirit has taught me that I am always worthy whenever I turn to the Lord inwardly and sit with Him in the quiet of my heart.   Every. Single. Time.  He is there.  Regardless of how sinful I have been that day.  Regardless of how many mistakes I made.  Regardless if I did my home-teaching for the month or not.  Etc. Etc.  As soon as we give Him our attention, we will find Him there waiting for us.  Our attention, our turning to Him, that is what makes us worthy of His influence and presence.         

 

Whatever gets taught by whom, the aim I believe is that Spirit helps us all discern correct principles and applications. As an indicator of how this is taught from Church resources, or the general tone the Church takes on the subject, here are a couple of random Googled samples: 

What’s the difference between perfectionism and wanting to be worthy? (churchofjesuschrist.org) (2017)

On Being Worthy (churchofjesuschrist.org) (1989)

and specific, more current online resources are in order:

Chapter 2: Personal Worthiness (churchofjesuschrist.org) (Missionary Preparation)

18. Performing Priesthood Ordinances and Blessings (churchofjesuschrist.org) (Handbook)

I think in all of these samples we find counsel suited to offset the influence of a perfectionist lens toward a) what worthiness means; b) how it is discerned and applied by oneself; and c) how it is discerned and applied by priesthood leaders in exercising their keys for issuing callings, recommends, ordinations, etc. They also offset the influence of a nonchalant lens.

I'm sure there are statements made long ago, including the scriptures, that someone might use to justify their self-flagellation (or condemnation of others), but the Holy Spirit would have instructed the hearers "then" as He instructs us "today" with promptings of "Come on!". 

I think "Come Follow Me" can be retitled as, "Come On!"

 

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wait…..so if sin makes me happy it can’t be sin.

I’ve been doing this wrong the whole time?!?!?!?!?!?!

There is a Way of Life and a Way of Death.

First Century.

"Didache.pdf"

Search the above quoted text in your browser 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

There is a Way of Life and a Way of Death.

First Century.

"Didache.pdf"

Search the above quoted text in your browser 

 

Okay, I now have lots of false prophets to go condemn.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Okay, I now have lots of false prophets to go condemn.

But seriously folks, the Didache is one of the first explorations of pragmatic morality in Christianity.

You go around being an adulterer and you might get a bunch of jealous husbands on your trail, not wishing you well.  You drink too much and wreck your car or kill somebody. You embezzle a few million and end up in a steel cage with a new roommate.  

Dang.  A fun life is not always what it is cracked up to be.

Natural consequences can finally catch up to you, naturally.

 

[manol]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

It is this idea of being "worthy" to have the presence of the Holy Ghost that gets tricky and I think is often misinterpreted.  I think worthiness is often taught as being without sin.  We need to do our way to becoming worthy of the spirit through our external works.  I no longer believe that.   The Spirit has taught me that I am always worthy whenever I turn to the Lord inwardly and sit with Him in the quiet of my heart.   Every. Single. Time.  He is there.  Regardless of how sinful I have been that day.  Regardless of how many mistakes I made.  Regardless if I did my home-teaching for the month or not.  Etc. Etc.  As soon as we give Him our attention, we will find Him there waiting for us.  Our attention, our turning to Him, that is what makes us worthy of His influence and presence. 

Well said!

I think our natural state is love.  And when we let go of our judgments and condemnations (of ourselves and others) we remove the barriers to our awareness of love's presence, of the Holy Spirit's presence, and there he is, just like you said. 

Every.  Single.  Time. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by manol

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

It is this idea of being "worthy" to have the presence of the Holy Ghost that gets tricky and I think is often misinterpreted.  I think worthiness is often taught as being without sin.  We need to do our way to becoming worthy of the spirit through our external works.  I no longer believe that.   The Spirit has taught me that I am always worthy whenever I turn to the Lord inwardly and sit with Him in the quiet of my heart.   Every. Single. Time.  He is there.  Regardless of how sinful I have been that day.  Regardless of how many mistakes I made.  Regardless if I did my home-teaching for the month or not.  Etc. Etc.  As soon as we give Him our attention, we will find Him there waiting for us.  Our attention, our turning to Him, that is what makes us worthy of His influence and presence.         

 

Oh

My

Gosh.

This is it. It's the closeness and opening yourself. It starts with us, not Him

 

[Meadowchik]

I think that as an LDS I would have said that happiness from obedience is more about happiness because we are in alignment with the truth.

Nowadays as an atheist I would say that the answer is analogous, that happiness is derived through alignment with core principles of 1) I am, and 2) You are. In other words, we feel joy when we affirm our identities as people and others identities as people.

There are countless experiences and choices which can affirm these truths. Conversely there are countless of things that can hamper those feelings: if I give up my identity to an unhealthy relationship, for example, I will struggle more to be content. If I subjugate someone else's identity to a relationship, that will diminish my happiness.

Good relationships enhance happiness and enhance good relationships. Unhealthy relationship patterns can multiply into more dysfunction and unhappiness.

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

12 hours ago, pogi said:

It is this idea of being "worthy" to have the presence of the Holy Ghost that gets tricky and I think is often misinterpreted.  I think worthiness is often taught as being without sin.  We need to do our way to becoming worthy of the spirit through our external works.  I no longer believe that.   The Spirit has taught me that I am always worthy whenever I turn to the Lord inwardly and sit with Him in the quiet of my heart.   Every. Single. Time.  He is there.  Regardless of how sinful I have been that day.  Regardless of how many mistakes I made.  Regardless if I did my home-teaching for the month or not.  Etc. Etc.  As soon as we give Him our attention, we will find Him there waiting for us.  Our attention, our turning to Him, that is what makes us worthy of His influence and presence.         

 

I don't think it's even that much. 

I don't see a God as requiring our acknowledgment of them. 

The Great Spark and Gift is the awareness of self and living. And then extending that awareness and respect to all other living.

Unhappiness and inability to live in society results from disrespect.

[Dario_M]

But come on? Where do you see happy people these days. Nobody looks happy. If i walk on the street and look to other people i don't see one single person that looks happy to me. Not even a smille. Nothing. 🎭

[MustardSeed]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

[MustardSeed]

Sorry, ignore above.  I never know how to delete a quote box. 

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I think that as an LDS I would have said that happiness from obedience is more about happiness because we are in alignment with the truth.

I can see this.  I do believe, in different terms, that any time we operate in alignment with a personal value, churchy or otherwise,  our self esteem increases, and a natural consequence of that is happiness. 
 

If this theory is correct, it becomes important to know ourselves well enough to know what we actually value, rather that what we are imitating.  
 

39 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

But come on? Where do you see happy people these days. Nobody looks happy. If i walk on the street and look to other people i don't see one single person that looks happy to me. Not even a smille. Nothing. 🎭

I’m sorry.  I don’t know about you, but I do find when I’m truly happy, other people tend to reflect that.  Or at least it seems as such!  

[Rain]

26 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

But come on? Where do you see happy people these days. Nobody looks happy. If i walk on the street and look to other people i don't see one single person that looks happy to me. Not even a smille. Nothing. 🎭

You may be right that no one is happy around you, but you may also be missing happiness because you are projecting your unhappiness on them or expecting them to express it differently than you would.

[Dario_M]

30 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

  

 

I’m sorry.  I don’t know about you, but I do find when I’m truly happy, other people tend to reflect that.  Or at least it seems as such!  

I don't see that in my life. If i am acting happy (what not happen much anyway) i notice that people are getting more irritated actually. As if they don't like it to see a person like me happy. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Dario_M

[MustardSeed]

4 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I don't see that in my life. If i am acting happy (what not happen much anyway) i notice that people are getting more irritated actually. As if don't like it to see a person like me happy. 

Ahhh.  I understand.  I have a loved one that when he’s in a good mood he gets a certain way and even I get annoyed.  It’s hard because I don’t want to repress his happiness.  I’m sorry that happens to you.  
 

maybe I would replace the word happiness with peace and quiet joy. ❤️

[Dario_M]

19 minutes ago, Rain said:

You may be right that no one is happy around you, but you may also be missing happiness because you are projecting your unhappiness on them or expecting them to express it differently than you would.

That is nonsens. And why whould nobody be happy around me? As if that is my fault. Btw i am not responsable for the happiness of other people anyway, please. 

What do you mean with expressing happiness or unhappiness?? If people are happy they look happy. If people are not happy they don't look happy. (mostely at least, or they fake it) But for the rest it is as simple as that. It is not dificuld to see that on somebody. Not for me at least. 

 

[Dario_M]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Ahhh.  I understand.  I have a loved one that when he’s in a good mood he gets a certain way and even I get annoyed.  It’s hard because I don’t want to repress his happiness.  I’m sorry that happens to you.  
 

maybe I would replace the word happiness with peace and quiet joy. ❤️

I feel sorry for him then. 🎭

[MustardSeed]

Just now, Dario_M said:

I feel sorry for him then. 🎭

Me too. 

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

That is nonsens. And why whould nobody be happy around me? As if that is my fault. Btw i am not responsable for the happiness of other people anyway, please. 

What do you mean with expressing happiness or unhappiness?? If people are happy they look happy. If people are not happy they don't look happy. (mostely at least, or they fake it) But for the rest it is as simple as that. It is not dificuld to see that on somebody. Not for me at least. 

 

She’s actually right in concept.  No way to know if she’s right about you.  She’s talking about your perception.

I’ll give an example. One of my flaws is extreme secondhand embarrassment. I can’t handle it particularly well. If I’m sitting in a room, and somebody in the room does something that would be terribly  embarrassing to me, I I erroneously perceive that everybody else in the room is uncomfortable just like me. This is called projection. In reality, it is unlikely that most people are reacting to the same extreme that I am. If I were to correct my imbalance, I would perceive everyone else in the room to be relaxed unless I had different data.  
Projection is something all humans do- we imagine in others an emotion that we ourselves are experiencing that is usually uncomfortable or even hidden from ourselves.  It’s a really interesting concept.