The Pursuit of Happiness

[Dario_M]

 

28 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Me too. 

Maybe you should be nicer to him then. ❤

[MustardSeed]

Just now, Dario_M said:

 

Maybe you should be nicer to him then. ❤

I’m super nice.  I keep my flaws to myself, he deserves his joy.  As do you. 

[Dario_M]

25 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

  
Projection is something all humans do-  

Well... i don't do that actually. 

[Dario_M]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m super nice.  I keep my flaws to myself, he deserves his joy.  As do you. 

Thanks. How nice of you.❤ I allready feel more happy now. 🥳

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I think that as an LDS I would have said that happiness from obedience is more about happiness because we are in alignment with the truth.

Nowadays as an atheist I would say that the answer is analogous, that happiness is derived through alignment with core principles of 1) I am, and 2) You are. In other words, we feel joy when we affirm our identities as people and others identities as people.

There are countless experiences and choices which can affirm these truths. Conversely there are countless of things that can hamper those feelings: if I give up my identity to an unhealthy relationship, for example, I will struggle more to be content. If I subjugate someone else's identity to a relationship, that will diminish my happiness.

Good relationships enhance happiness and enhance good relationships. Unhealthy relationship patterns can multiply into more dysfunction and unhappiness.

 

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I don't think it's even that much. 

I don't see a God as requiring our acknowledgment of them. 

He doesn't require our attention and acknowledgment of Him, unless we want to have a healthy relationship with Him and recognize His presence in our life.  Think of it in relation to what you said above.  To have a healthy relationship with someone (even "a God"), we must "affirm their identities".   There is much that we can do to affirm the identity of God, and much that we can do to hamper those feelings, as you put it -  but one of the most fundamental and simplest ways that we can do this is by giving our attention.  Attention is the essential quality of all healthy relationships.  It is the gift of self and is affirming of their identity.  Without giving someone our attention, they cannot feel love and connected to us, nor we to them, and it would be difficult for us to even be much aware of, let alone engage with their presence and being in a meaningful and fulfilling way.  There is no affirmation without attention.  There is no love without the most fundamental principle of attention.  Without taking time to give God attention, it will become impossible to not get so distracted that you are not even aware that he is there with you.  So many of us are not even aware that we are distracted.  When we separate ourselves from the distractions of the world and take time to sit with God, a doorway opens to a greater awareness of His presence and a relationship develops.  It simply can't work without that step.  One can't have a relationship with God and with the spirit without first giving Him attention.   It is that simple.

The following is from a Benedictine Monk whom I greatly respect who has become one of my spiritual teachers.  Here he is speaking about the principle of attention. 

  Here is a much more in-depth and wonderful discussion on the subject:

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The Great Spark and Gift is the awareness of self and living. And then extending that awareness and respect to all other living.

Unhappiness and inability to live in society results from disrespect.

Yes, we all have the spark and gift of awareness of self and living.  I think it essential that we extend the gift of our attention to the Being from whence it was gifted to us in the first place.  Not giving attention to God, is a form of disrespect, just as it would be with anyone you are trying to have a relationship with.  Attention is THE KEY principle and doorway to experience intimacy with God. 

"Be still, and know that I am God". 

Quote

Meditation is one of the most secret, most sacred doors through which we pass into the presence of the Lord.

David O. McKay

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by pogi

[pogi]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

Drug-induced "joy" will always, in the end, be a poor knock-off of the real deal.

I am a husband to a wonderful woman and a father to six wonderful kids.  I could, I suppose, forsake all my obligations to them.  I could abuse or neglect them.  I could divorce my wife and abandon her and my kids in favor of a "riotous living" lifestyle.  And if I were ever to feel a twinge of regret or remorse, I could dose myself with booze, or shrooms, or whatever to help me smother such inconvenient feelings.  And it just might work.  I might be able to proceed guilt-free in my self-centered hedonism by using mind-altering substances to, well, alter my mind.  But sooner or later I would have to give up this tabernacle of clay, and thereafter "the day cometh that {I} shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to {my} works."  (Alma 11:41.)  I suspect Pres. McKay's description of a part of the process will be proven largely accurate:

There won't be any Magic Mushrooms around then.  Nothing to help me evade being "harrowed up by the memory of my many sins" (Alma 36:17).

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying if you think I am suggesting that one can be happy long-term by using psilocybin and without living any other principles of happiness. 

The positive effects of psilocybin last well beyond the point the drug is fully metabolized in our system.  It is not a "drug induced joy" in the sense that one must be currently under the influence of the drug (as in it is in your system) to be happy.   It is not a "poor knock-off of the real deal."  It is a catalyst to the real deal by working on the source of unhappiness (our mind) with harmful perceptions and maladaptive thought patterns, rather than relying on external efforts (paying tithing, magnifying your calling, word of wisdom, chastity, etc.), which can often distract us from the source of our unhappiness (our mind/perceptions) if we become convinced that we can obey our way out of unhappiness (due to unhealthy perceptions) through our external works.   When our mind and perceptions are healthy, then it follows that our behavior will be healthy, and lasting/enduring happiness can take effect.  Sometimes drugs, rather than good works, are a more efficacious catalyst to lasting happiness.  Good works, due to improved perceptions, are the fruits of the drug. 

My purpose of bringing drugs into the discussion was simply to demonstrate that we can't always rely on exterior good-works to get us out of unhappiness.  For many, it is impossible to even love (the central principle in all commandments) without first addressing the their mind and perceptions.  

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

That is nonsens. And why whould nobody be happy around me?

This is a miscommunication between us.  I didn't mean that no one is happy around you.  I meant that you may see them as unhappy IF you feel unhappy.  

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

As if that is my fault. Btw i am not responsable for the happiness of other people anyway, please. 

Nope.  Didn't mean you are responsible at all.  

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

What do you mean with expressing happiness or unhappiness?? If people are happy they look happy. If people are not happy they don't look happy. (mostely at least, or they fake it) But for the rest it is as simple as that. It is not dificuld to see that on somebody. Not for me at least. 

 

My husband is a big, tall man.  His resting and thinking face looks kind of grumpy.  In one of his work reviews his boss told him that he need to smile more when he was walking around because he was scaring and intimidating the other people around him. That was news to him!  He is one of those gentle, kind men.  And he was happy.  

I'm just saying sometimes we misread what other people are feeling because we expect their body language to be what ours would be if we were feeling that way.  

Edited January 18, 2023 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying if you think I am suggesting that one can be happy long-term by using psilocybin and without living any other principles of happiness. 

The positive effects of psilocybin last well beyond the point the drug is fully metabolized in our system.  It is not a "drug induced joy" in the sense that one must be currently under the influence of the drug (as in it is in your system) to be happy.   It is not a "poor knock-off of the real deal."  It is a catalyst to the real deal by working on the source of unhappiness (our mind) with harmful perceptions and maladaptive thought patterns, rather than relying on external efforts (paying tithing, magnifying your calling, word of wisdom, chastity, etc.), which can often distract us from the source of our unhappiness (our mind/perceptions) if we become convinced that we can obey our way out of unhappiness (due to unhealthy perceptions) through our external works.   When our mind and perceptions are healthy, then it follows that our behavior will be healthy, and lasting/enduring happiness can take effect.  Sometimes drugs, rather than good works, are a more efficacious catalyst to lasting happiness.  Good works, due to improved perceptions, are the fruits of the drug. 

My purpose of bringing drugs into the discussion was simply to demonstrate that we can't always rely on exterior good-works to get us out of unhappiness.  For many, it is impossible to even love (the central principle in all commandments) without first addressing the their mind and perceptions.  

We moderns also, in our superior scientific brilliance have shamans who encourage the use of consciousness altering drugs alleged to improve serious mental problems.

We call those people "psychiatrists".

The church encourages the use of modern medical techniques including medications.

I wonder how many LDS kids take drugs for ADD?

Edited January 18, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I don't see that in my life. If i am acting happy (what not happen much anyway) i notice that people are getting more irritated actually. As if they don't like it to see a person like me happy. 

Reminds me of something Adam Smith says in The Theory of Moral Sentiments. He's talking about human sympathy and how it's not so much the expression of happiness but the appreciation of the cause of happiness that makes us feel happy for another.

I think it's worth noting that Mormon culture is stereotypically smiley and cheerful, and being someone like that myself, I've discovered that a cheerful outward appearance isn't necessarily reflective of genuine happiness. Also, someone can be feeling intense joy without looking noticeably happy from the outside. 

Some people are more reserved. And very cheerful people often invite suspicion. Some people keep their emotions close like a delicate flower, others want shout them from the rooftops. But feelings of happiness in both cases are equally valid.

 

[california boy]

21 hours ago, pogi said:

Do you think it is something that we can teach better to younger generations?  

What are we teaching that is contributing to these unhealthy beliefs/perspectives, and what can we do to help future generations avoid the same pitfalls and harmful perceptions?

 

1. I actually think it is the younger generation that seems to be teaching us.  They are not so judgmental and narrow minded about how a person chooses to live their lives. They accept that people can find happiness and joy and spirituality on many paths.  Focusing their own efforts on how they live their lives rather than how others live theirs.  They also seem to be much less interested in acquiring things. They spend their money on experiences rather than possessions. It took me many years to learn that lesson.  I now delight in how simple I can keep my life and spend more time enjoying my passions.  Years ago, I started incorporating the mantra often said by Brigham Young.  Work less. Wear less. Spend less.  This younger generation seems to have figured that out much earlier than I did.

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

He doesn't require our attention and acknowledgment of Him, unless we want to have a healthy relationship with Him and recognize His presence in our life.  Think of it in relation to what you said above.  To have a healthy relationship with someone (even "a God"), we must "affirm their identities".   There is much that we can do to affirm the identity of God, and much that we can do to hamper those feelings, as you put it -  but one of the most fundamental and simplest ways that we can do this is by giving our attention.  Attention is the essential quality of all healthy relationships.  It is the gift of self and is affirming of their identity.  Without giving someone our attention, they cannot feel love and connected to us, nor we to them, and it would be difficult for us to even be much aware of, let alone engage with their presence and being in a meaningful and fulfilling way.  There is no affirmation without attention.  There is no love without the most fundamental principle of attention.  Without taking time to give God attention, it will become impossible to not get so distracted that you are not even aware that he is there with you.  So many of us are not even aware that we are distracted.  When we separate ourselves from the distractions of the world and take time to sit with God, a doorway opens to a greater awareness of His presence and a relationship develops.  It simply can't work without that step.  One can't have a relationship with God and with the spirit without first giving Him attention.   It is that simple.

The following is from a Benedictine Monk whom I greatly respect who has become one of my spiritual teachers.  Here he is speaking about the principle of attention. 

  Here is a much more in-depth and wonderful discussion on the subject:

Yes, we all have the spark and gift of awareness of self and living.  I think it essential that we extend the gift of our attention to the Being from whence it was gifted to us in the first place.  Not giving attention to God, is a form of disrespect, just as it would be with anyone you are trying to have a relationship with.  Attention is THE KEY principle and doorway to experience intimacy with God. 

"Be still, and know that I am God". 

 

 

That's not my experience. I feel that in retrospect the attempted relationship I sought with God was always a long way round to relationship with myself or others at best, and a detour or dead end away from good relationships at worst.

I feel that there's nothing missing, especially if I appreciate my existence within the world, inside my body, and among the living. 

I can understand that your saying we cannot have a relationship with God if we cannot acknowledge them. However, I would say that hypothetically, God might be the one exception to that rule IF we are respecting our relationship to God's creations and those principles inherent in our existence. 

I don't mean to create a big tangent here, just mostly remarking on the similarities which I now find as an atheist which still connect to my formative beliefs as a Mormon.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Meadowchik

[Calm]

I can’t decide which thread to put this in as there is overlap, so putting it in the top one.  And can’t remember if it has been put up here or not, sorry if repeat.
 

Thought some might find this relevant. Can’t comment on it myself yet, if ever, but read that it was quite good. 
 

https://faithmatters.org/the-law-of-love-a-conversation-with-steve-young/

“In so many domains of our lives, we are encouraged to think and act in a transactional, cost-benefit way. But Latter-day Saints are called to transcend this logic and follow the law of love, which Steve Young defines in his new book as “loving as God loves, seeking another’s healing, and expecting nothing in return.”

Living the law of love can help us focus less on acquiring religious merit badges and more on becoming extensions of Christ’s healing hands to bind up the brokenhearted.”

Edited January 18, 2023 by Calm

[Dario_M]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

1. I actually think it is the younger generation that seems to be teaching us.  They are not so judgmental and narrow minded about how a person chooses to live their lives.

That is not true at all i find. Age doesn't matter. I have young people in my church who are very judgemental. People who are around my age (30 or older) who are not judgemental at all. It is not about the age of the person. It is more the character of the person. And how he/she is thinking about how things should be and how people should behave or look like. 

 

 

 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Dario_M said:

But come on? Where do you see happy people these days. Nobody looks happy. If i walk on the street and look to other people i don't see one single person that looks happy to me. Not even a smille. Nothing. 🎭

So sorry you are experiencing that.  My life is filled with happy people.  I have to say that one of the huge benefits of Covid is that it has completely changed my neighborhood.  It started out by banging pots and pans at 7 every night in support of the front line workers.  We could also hear a group a block away banging as well.  We got to know each other.  I now know most of our neighbors.  I know their dogs, and children, even the ones that are grown up.  My neighbor two doors down is doing some remodeling and asked my opinion on paint colors because they know of my artistic background.  We have get togethers regularly.  Each election we gather the neighborhood and go over the endless ballot initiates and candidates.  This all happened by banging some pots together.  And this is just one of many groups that are in my life.  

I will give you one more of many.  My partner and I got involved in the Senior Center that had a ceramics program.  After many years of not doing ceramics, I started throwing pots there.  No one else knew how to use the wheel.  So I started teaching people how to do it that were in their 70's and 80's.  The group grew.  More people got involved, until now, there is a waiting list because the space can't hold everyone.  The joy of creating something out of mud is magical.  My favorite student is Judy, a 94 year young woman that has lived an extraordinary life.  

Maybe you are looking in the wrong places.  

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

That's not my experience. I feel that in retrospect the attempted relationship I sought with God was always a long way round to relationship with myself or others at best, and a detour or dead end away from good relationships at worst.

I feel that there's nothing missing, especially if I appreciate my existence within the world, inside my body, and among the living. 

I can understand that your saying we cannot have a relationship with God if we cannot acknowledge them. However, I would say that hypothetically, God might be the one exception to that rule IF we are respecting our relationship to God's creations and those principles inherent in our existence. 

I don't mean to create a big tangent here, just mostly remarking on the similarities which I now find as an atheist which still connect to my formative beliefs as a Mormon.

You seem to be speaking of happiness in general.  I agree that one can be happy as an atheist - although piles of studies show that atheist's are less happy than religionists - but the point I was making was about having an intimate relationship with God, and how worthiness plays a role in that.   It is true that we can unknowingly live true and godly principles and that we can even unknowingly serve God by serving others (as Christ taught, "in as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these...then ye have done it unto me"), but I wouldn't necessarily call a relationship with someone that one doesn't believe in or recognize as "intimate".  For true intimacy with anyone to exist, and God is no exception, then we must freely offer our "attention" to them.  There must be an awareness and recognition, at the very least, that the individual exists and is worthy or our attention.   THAT is the core fundamental of love.  Where your heart is, there will your treasure be also. 

Granted, people can live in the spirit (light of Christ) and have some sort of intimacy with it, by listening to it and heeding its promptings, and living by its precepts without ever recognizing in mortality what it really is they are relating to/with.  But even without a precise understanding of what it is they are paying attention to, they are still giving it attention.  For it to have presence and effect in our life, attention is a primal principle. 

[manol]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

[A]s an atheist I would say that.. happiness is derived through alignment with core principles of 1) I am, and 2) You are. In other words, we feel joy when we affirm our identities as people and others identities as people.

Yes!

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I don't see a God as requiring our acknowledgment of them. 

The Great Spark and Gift is the awareness of self and living. And then extending that awareness and respect to all other living.

Agreed!

Imo it matters not whether our term for the highest we aspire to is Morality or Alignment with Core Principles or The Great Spark and Gift or God or the Godhead or Truth or whatever.  Imo we're all very much brothers and sisters on a journey whose similarity far outweighs the differences we humans tend to fixate on. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by manol

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

We moderns also, in our superior scientific brilliance have shamans who encourage the use of consciousness altering drugs alleged to improve serious mental problems.

We call those people "psychiatrists".

The church encourages the use of modern medical techniques including medications.

I wonder how many LDS kids take drugs for ADD?

Just to expand on this

Of Covenants and ADHD

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2015/02/of-covenants-and-adhd?lang=eng

 

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, manol said:

Imo it matters not whether our term for the highest we aspire to is Morality or Alignment with Core Principles or The Great Spark and Gift or God or the Godhead or Truth or whatever. 

Totally agree.  My point is simply that no matter what name we give it, or what call it, offering our attention to it (as we perceive it) is the only way it can be an intimate part of our lives.  Attention is the fundamental key principle required for intimacy in any relationship, whether that be with other people, nature, art, music, animals, principles, truth, God...you name it!  Attention is the foundational basis of love.  Of course, other principles are required beyond that, but without offering our attention, love and intimacy with anything is impossible.  

[Rain]

26 minutes ago, california boy said:

1. I actually think it is the younger generation that seems to be teaching us.  They are not so judgmental and narrow minded about how a person chooses to live their lives. They accept that people can find happiness and joy and spirituality on many paths.

I think this is true to an extent, but I've also see them as a whole display a whole lot more anger and hopelessness. Maybe the idea that you can't feel one without the other?  Or maybe they are more passionate overall?

26 minutes ago, california boy said:

1.  Focusing their own efforts on how they live their lives rather than how others live theirs.

I'm not sure this is fully true.  I just think many do it in a different way. What I'm seeing is that the younger generation is much more quick to cut off contact with those they disagree with. So it may see they are focusing on their own lives, but more often I feel it is just avoidance of things that stay with them internally.

26 minutes ago, california boy said:

1.  They also seem to be much less interested in acquiring things. They spend their money on experiences rather than possessions.

This I can see. When I was younger, people couldn't figure out why I took the kids to do so many things because "they will never remember it anyway ".  But we don't remember every time mom read a book to us or gave us a hug etc, yet we recognize those things affected us and our character. Those experiences do that as well and many of the younger generations recognize that.

26 minutes ago, california boy said:

1. It took me many years to learn that lesson.  I now delight in how simple I can keep my life and spend more time enjoying my passions.  Years ago, I started incorporating the mantra often said by Brigham Young.  Work less. Wear less. Spend less.  This younger generation seems to have figured that out much earlier than I did.

Yes, though I think they sometimes many go too far though.  Often times I see the idea of not work, expect more and expect others to do more so you can have it the way you want. There is a happy medium in there somewhere that I think many of us who are older are finding because we realized that the work more, have more idea doesn't make us happy.  At some point we all have to find that balance.

[Meadowchik]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

Totally agree.  My point is simply that no matter what name we give it, or what call it, offering our attention to it (as we perceive it) is the only way it can be an intimate part of our lives.  Attention is the fundamental key principle required for intimacy in any relationship, whether that be with other people, nature, art, music, animals, principles, truth, God...you name it!  Attention is the foundational basis of love.  Of course, other principles are required beyond that, but without offering our attention, love and intimacy with anything is impossible.  

In that case we are in agreement. 

 

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

You seem to be speaking of happiness in general.  I agree that one can be happy as an atheist - although piles of studies show that atheist's are less happy than religionists - but the point I was making was about having an intimate relationship with God, and how worthiness plays a role in that.   It is true that we can unknowingly live true and godly principles and that we can even unknowingly serve God by serving others (as Christ taught, "in as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these...then ye have done it unto me"), but I wouldn't necessarily call a relationship with someone that one doesn't believe in or recognize as "intimate".  For true intimacy with anyone to exist, and God is no exception, then we must freely offer our "attention" to them.  There must be an awareness and recognition, at the very least, that the individual exists and is worthy or our attention.   THAT is the core fundamental of love.  Where your heart is, there will your treasure be also. 

Granted, people can live in the spirit (light of Christ) and have some sort of intimacy with it, by listening to it and heeding its promptings, and living by its precepts without ever recognizing in mortality what it really is they are relating to/with.  But even without a precise understanding of what it is they are paying attention to, they are still giving it attention.  For it to have presence and effect in our life, attention is a primal principle. 

Just want to respond to the first part about stats and atheists...I'd question if that has more to do with other factors and not atheism vs theism basically, for example perhaps more to do with living as an atheist in a world that has been and has evolved in theistic structures. 

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Just want to respond to the first part about stats and atheists...I'd question if that has more to do with other factors and not atheism vs theism basically, for example perhaps more to do with living as an atheist in a world that has been and has evolved in theistic structures. 

That could be one factor.  I suspect there are several others, and I don't think they are all necessarily mutually exclusive.  Not only are religionists more likely to report subjective happiness, they also demonstrate objective longevity and improved health as compared to atheists.  They are also more likely to be involved in voluntary organizations and community service outside of their religion.  They are also more likely to participate and vote in national elections.   Perhaps living as an ashiest in a theistic world has caused some to fall pray to apathy and lack of motivation to serve in higher causes, and thus have less purpose and meaning in their lives, or perhaps religion simply provides a paradigm which more actively supports such involvement. 

Researchers seem to generally agree that one factor that may lead to improved happiness in religion is the "social capital" it creates with active engagement in a community of believers.  But there may be other factors that may more directly link religious practice with improved happiness:

Quote

Although social activity seems to be a key driver of well-being among religiously active people, there is plenty of research to suggest that other factors play a role, too. Some researchers argue that virtues promoted by religion, such as compassion, forgiveness and helping others, may improve happiness and even physical health if they are practiced by parishioners. Religion may benefit psychological well-being because it encourages supernatural beliefs that can help people deal with stress.15 Social psychologists identify “stress buffering” mechanisms, such as a perceived connection with the divine, as key ways people may deal with difficult life events.16 And religious meaning may help people manage suffering, both in their lives and in the lives of those around them.17

Other researchers argue that religion can more directly lead to better health by proscribing risky behaviors and promoting healthy ones.19 Many religions discourage members from excessive alcohol and drug use, for example.20 Some religions, such as the Seventh-day Adventist Church and certain schools of Buddhism and Hinduism, encourage specific behaviors that may have health benefits, such as a vegetarian diet, regular exercise and meditation.21

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/01/31/religions-relationship-to-happiness-civic-engagement-and-health-around-the-world/

Whatever the reason, from a pragmatic standpoint religion seems to be the better paradigm for happiness currently and generally speaking. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by pogi

[Kenngo1969]

21 hours ago, smac97 said:

... I am a husband to a wonderful woman and a father to six wonderful kids. ...

You have baby goats?    

Sorry.    Couldn't resist!    Carry on!  

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I think this is true to an extent, but I've also see them as a whole display a whole lot more anger and hopelessness. Maybe the idea that you can't feel one without the other?  Or maybe they are more passionate overall?

I'm not sure this is fully true.  I just think many do it in a different way. What I'm seeing is that the younger generation is much more quick to cut off contact with those they disagree with. So it may see they are focusing on their own lives, but more often I feel it is just avoidance of things that stay with them internally.

This I can see. When I was younger, people couldn't figure out why I took the kids to do so many things because "they will never remember it anyway ".  But we don't remember every time mom read a book to us or gave us a hug etc, yet we recognize those things affected us and our character. Those experiences do that as well and many of the younger generations recognize that.

Yes, though I think they sometimes many go too far though.  Often times I see the idea of not work, expect more and expect others to do more so you can have it the way you want. There is a happy medium in there somewhere that I think many of us who are older are finding because we realized that the work more, have more idea doesn't make us happy.  At some point we all have to find that balance.

Totally agree.  And I have no idea how universal this is within the younger generation.  Since housing in the Bay Area is so astronomically high, I think many have given up on the idea of owning a home.  That in itself changes how you look at life and what your needs are.

[Dario_M]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

So sorry you are experiencing that.  My life is filled with happy people.  I have to say that one of the huge benefits of Covid is that it has completely changed my neighborhood.  It started out by banging pots and pans at 7 every night in support of the front line workers.  We could also hear a group a block away banging as well.  We got to know each other.  I now know most of our neighbors.  I know their dogs, and children, even the ones that are grown up.  My neighbor two doors down is doing some remodeling and asked my opinion on paint colors because they know of my artistic background.  We have get togethers regularly.  Each election we gather the neighborhood and go over the endless ballot initiates and candidates.  This all happened by banging some pots together.  And this is just one of many groups that are in my life.  

I will give you one more of many.  My partner and I got involved in the Senior Center that had a ceramics program.  After many years of not doing ceramics, I started throwing pots there.  No one else knew how to use the wheel.  So I started teaching people how to do it that were in their 70's and 80's.  The group grew.  More people got involved, until now, there is a waiting list because the space can't hold everyone.  The joy of creating something out of mud is magical.  My favorite student is Judy, a 94 year young woman that has lived an extraordinary life.  

Maybe you are looking in the wrong places.  

Funny the neighborhood here have also changed a lot. (I know this because i have been in Miratejo Portugal really aften for vacation when i lived in the Netherlands) And now i life in Miratejo Portugal. If i think back all those years ago i know that back then it whas completely differend here. 

But oooh boy... what have people changed here. And not in a positive way. It used to be a nice neighborhood here where people where friendly and be aware with each other. Nowadays people are sooo rude here. Especially the younger generation. Loud. My neighbors above me are extremaly loud the whole day. Every day.

In the night time people are making a lot of noise. I just can't sleep. It has became such a problem that i have developed a sleeping disorder by now. Constantly loud talking, screaming, laughing on the street in the middle of the night. If i open my window and ask those people or they please wanna leave or go inside the buildiding to continuing their (loud) conversation they laugh at me. And after that they stay longer outside. And talk louder.

I try to sleep.

And then you have also those people who go out of their apartment on 3 a clock in the nightime. Loud talking. Mostely going straight up walking to the car. Doors go open. And with 3 or 4 loud bangs the doors closse. Then the noise of a starting car. With offcourse a few honks. And if that would not allready wake me up then it will be most definitly that horible sound of loud music from the radio and somebody that is having their food too deep on the gaspedal and after that the sound of a car that speeds away from the street. (Btw while i am typing this post i allready hear somebody talking really loud on the street. It is now 22:07. That will promisse something good for the rest of the night.🎭). Where whas i?... oh yeah... as if that wouldn't wake me up yet it would be the sound of a speeding car. After that i am awake and try to fall asleep again. Wich isn't easy because a few minutes later i hear the next group of people walking to their car with the same kind of noises. Lovely when you have that commotion in the middle of the night while you are trying to get some sleep isn't?? And this is now going on nearly every night. With highlights in the weekends.

That is how people have changed here. Or it really is because of the corona or something else i don't know. But things have changed here for sure. And it isn't positive. Any of it.  

Funny right????🎭🎭🎭 How differend that can be on other parts of the world. But i am really happy for you @california boy that at least in your neighborhood everything is going well and people have became really nice, that you know everyone and it is all positive lovely. 💗

Btw, right now on this moment my neighbors above me are having a tv party (tv set on really loud). Like always. Maybe they think that they are the only ones that life in this building.?🤷‍♂️

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Dario_M

[pogi]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

1. I actually think it is the younger generation that seems to be teaching us.  They are not so judgmental and narrow minded about how a person chooses to live their lives. They accept that people can find happiness and joy and spirituality on many paths.  Focusing their own efforts on how they live their lives rather than how others live theirs.  They also seem to be much less interested in acquiring things. They spend their money on experiences rather than possessions. It took me many years to learn that lesson.  I now delight in how simple I can keep my life and spend more time enjoying my passions.  Years ago, I started incorporating the mantra often said by Brigham Young.  Work less. Wear less. Spend less.  This younger generation seems to have figured that out much earlier than I did.

While those may be considered social improvements, the question is if it is enough to counter-balance other emerging factors and social digressions that are facing them? 

Gen Z (18-22 year old's) are the loneliest generation in history.  Their "loneliness score is nearly 10 points higher than the least lonely generation."  They are more likely to live in one parent households than any previous generation.  They have fewer siblings than any previous generation.  There is an erosion of neighborhood communities with parents isolating children more then ever to "protect them".  There is a greater decline in church activity than in any previous generation (which studies demonstrate improves likelihood of well-being and happiness and social involvement/connection). 

Quote

It’s also important for Gen Z — and other Americans — to take “social capital” seriously. Thanks to the erosion of neighborhood communities, the fracturing of many families and the decline in church attendance, there are fewer and fewer opportunities for finding new friends or developing meaningful relationships. And that puts even more pressure on students. Imagine being unhappy at school and having no other community to turn to.

And if Gen Z is using phones instead of in-person interactions, that could be contributing to these young adults’ loneliness. In an Atlantic article last year, psychology professor Jean Twenge highlighted how teens were less interested in driving and getting out of the house than past generations.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/05/03/gen-z-loneliest-generation-social-media-personal-interactions-column/574701002/

Quote

Given the worrying consequences, the loneliness of Gen Z — and other generations — should be taken seriously. In fact, Cigna, citing a 2010 Brigham Young University study, says “loneliness has the same impact on mortality as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, making it even more dangerous than obesity.”

The data seems to suggest that these positive social changes are not enough to counter balance loneliness and unhappiness in younger generations.  

Quote

According to a new survey, self-reported well-being increases linearly with age.

...The main result of the study was that, across all six domains, there was a clear linear trend with increasing well-being scores being related to older generations. The widest gaps were found between the Silent Generation and the GenZers, with the other generations in between. The incrementally rising well-being scores as one moved from the Gen Z generation through Millennials, GenXers, Boomers, and finally the Silent Generation was remarkably similar across the six well-being dimensions. Smaller differences were also found related to race but the authors reported no differences by sex.

...Overall, the data contribute to the concern that our youth are struggling, and this may be a broader phenomenon beyond those with clinical mental health challenges.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/abcs-child-psychiatry/202210/which-generation-is-really-the-happiest#:~:text=According to a new survey,well-being across different dimensions.

People don't know how to connect with other human beings anymore.  That is the single greatest social threat we face.  It is the single greatest cause for lack of happiness today.  While younger generations are more "woke" on some social issues, they are fast asleep in the areas that really matter to happiness.  Sadly, it is not really their fault - it is just how they were raised. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by pogi