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Mormon church comes out in support of same-sex marriage law


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Posted
3 hours ago, Jakob42 said:

I will assume since you did not satisfactorily answer my question but instead asked one of your own and referred me to someone else.... that you know nothing about the Mormon priesthood ban yourself.   Correct?  If you do, in fact, understand the issue then why didn't you simply explain it?

 

Why would you badger a stranger on the internet for an answer when you have at your fingertips an essay from an authoritative source that is only a mouse click/finger tap away? Are you intentionally being argumentative?

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Uum.. what is your problem actually according to my post?

I just say that i would be happy if it would be like that. For me. Offcourse i know that it probably would never happen.

And have you not read the titel of this topic? I am just being ontopic. 

I am just curious about your point of view of the Church’s and members’ beliefs.  I hang out on this board because I am curious and like to hear others’ perspectives of belief, not because I like to debate or lecture people.  I ask questions mostly out of curiosity and not because I think someone is mistaken (I will come right out and say someone is making a mistake if I think there is a problem that I should say something about).

I have been meaning to ask you what it is that you like about the Restored Gospel so much, why it is so meaningful for you to be baptized.  Always interested in conversion stories too.

Edited by Calm
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jakob42 said:

I will assume since you did not satisfactorily answer my question but instead asked one of your own and referred me to someone else.... that you know nothing about the Mormon priesthood ban yourself.   Correct?  If you do, in fact, understand the issue then why didn't you simply explain it?

 

Actually I know quite a bit about it, enough to know it is not a simple topic nor will a simple explanation be enough for someone interested in understanding it in-depth.  But I didn’t want to bore you with the basics if what you were asking about were the more obscure details.  I also don’t see a reason to write a dissertation if what is wanted is a paragraph or two summary.  The Church has done a great job putting together the highlights surrounding the ban, but there are some historic details that have come to light since it was written…still if you don’t know the facts that are in the essay, it would be foolish to jump right into the more recent research.

There are also several issues involved with the Ban and your question is vague enough I am not sure what you are interested in.  Did you want the facts of origin or a speculative commentary of motivations, a timeline from beginning to end, placing it within the Mormon Experience, or the impact of the ban on church culture, something else?  
 

If you really want to understand the Ban, there are a couple of books that I believe are necessary reading.  No way will a post or two on this board provide a thorough understanding of the ban.

 

Edited by Calm
Posted
2 hours ago, Jakob42 said:

Topics that defy simple explanations have no place in religious doctrine.

Okay, this is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time.

Thanks for the laugh. I needed it.

Posted
3 hours ago, Jakob42 said:

I was baptized a Mormon in 1974.   I've never heard anything about this issue of bans on   the priesthood.   That is, until I cam to this discussion forum.  I am left with no alternative but to think that this whole website is run by anti-LDS trolls.

And the laughs just keep on coming.

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jakob42 said:

I was baptized a Mormon in 1974.   I've never heard anything about this issue of bans on   the priesthood.   That is, until I cam to this discussion forum.  I am left with no alternative but to think that this whole website is run by anti-LDS trolls.

Will i am a active member of the church of later day saints if you don't mind. I am not anti LDS at all. Things just have changed in the church in all those years. It is not 1974 anymore maybe you did not noticed that yet??

Besides.. if you don't like it here you can always leave. Nobody makes you stay here right? 

Edited by Dario_M
Posted
5 hours ago, Jakob42 said:

Topics that defy simple explanations have no place in religious doctrine.

Well you’d be hard pressed to find more than one or two people here defending it as a religious doctrine so I guess you’re good. 

Posted
58 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Wow.

I'm not sure which is more astounding: the rudeness or the ignorance.

You should check out this book. You may find it helpful because you are failing spectacularly.

image.png.5552e7656a6258a12edaecef28967d78.png

There is a recent talk about "lazy learners" you may want to look up as well. I get it. Reading is hard. But I suggest you give it a try.

I get the feeling he spends all his free time imagining what gay couples do in the bedroom. No time for reading. 

Posted
13 hours ago, Jakob42 said:

I was baptized a Mormon in 1974.   I've never heard anything about this issue of bans on   the priesthood.   That is, until I cam to this discussion forum.  I am left with no alternative but to think that this whole website is run by anti-LDS trolls.

Speaking of trolls......😏

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 12/19/2022 at 9:30 PM, Jakob42 said:

I was baptized a Mormon in 1974.   I've never heard anything about this issue of bans on   the priesthood.   That is, until I cam to this discussion forum.  I am left with no alternative but to think that this whole website is run by anti-LDS trolls.

You’ve been a member 50 years and you never knew that black men couldn’t have the priesthood back in the day?  Are you actively involved in the church? 

Edited by MustardSeed
Posted (edited)
On 12/19/2022 at 9:21 PM, Jakob42 said:

Topics that defy simple explanations have no place in religious doctrine.

Hilarious!

Edited to add:

Ok, my initial response, like Nehor, was one of amusement. But I am trying to practice charity, and so I want to look at what Jacob42 has said, and see if there is some validity to the statement.

Jacob42 does not claim that simple explanations have no place in religious discussions. He says that simple explanations have no place in religious doctrine. If one accepts the revealed truths of the Scriptures and the prophets, who wrote repeatedly  that they wrote with plainness, then one might conclude that religious doctrines should be plain and not require convoluted explanations. The problem arises when we lack the same spirit that the prophets had when they wrote their inspired words, and so we get lost in the morass of trying to read with temporal eyes that which was written by a spiritual hand.  Further, Nephi tells us that plainness is lost when men “look beyond the mark.”

Thus, one might read Jacobs42’s comment as an invitation to us all to seek that same spirit through which the doctrines have come to be revealed by the Lord through the prophets and to avoid discussing that which has not been revealed. That may also be the best understanding of the mistake of the Priesthood Ban, as Rivers notes.  Had it been revealed doctrine, it likely would not require a convoluted discussion.

Disagreement with revealed doctrine can also lead to convoluted explanations. 😎

Were it not for Jacob42s’ declared reluctance to “do all the work,” I would consider removing my smiley face from his posts.😇

 

Edited by Mark Beesley
  • 1 month later...
Posted
On 12/13/2022 at 4:40 PM, smac97 said:

An update:

Section 6 of the Act states:

I think this is pretty good.

The full statement: "Diverse beliefs about the role of gender in marriage are held by reasonable and sincere people based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises. Therefore, Congress affirms that such people and their diverse beliefs are due proper respect."

Again, this is pretty good.

Indeed.  I hope this helps reduce tensions.

Cool.

Thanks,

-Smac

An update on the Church's position re: the Respect for Marriage Act: Why Latter-day Saints leaders supported the Respect for Marriage Act; President Oaks clarifies the Church’s position

Quote

Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints supported the Respect for Marriage Act — signed into law Dec. 13, 2022, by U.S. President Joe Biden — because the legislation provided necessary protections for religious liberty, said President Dallin H. Oaks on Saturday, Feb. 11.

Speaking to mission leaders and stake presidents and their wives from Illinois and Wisconsin, President Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency, said some Latter-day Saints have expressed concerns that the new national law is in conflict with the Church’s teachings against same-sex marriage. 

“We see a need to clarify the Church’s position on that new law,” said President Oaks, speaking on behalf of the First Presidency.

Huh.  I guess the prior statement ("Diverse beliefs about the role of gender in marriage are held by reasonable and sincere people based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises. Therefore, Congress affirms that such people and their diverse beliefs are due proper respect.") was not sufficient.

Quote

While the Respect for Marriage Act codified same-sex marriage in federal law, the act also provided needed protections for religious expression, said President Oaks.

He explained that the 2015 U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Obergefell v. Hodges had already established a federal right to same-sex marriage in the United States.

The focus of the Church’s efforts in support of the national Respect for Marriage Act “was not on same-sex marriage, but on ensuring the act contained the necessary protections for religious freedom,” he said, adding that at the time the act was adopted, “the Church publicly reaffirmed our Church doctrine approving only marriage between one man and one woman.”

Marriage bills previously proposed in Congress made no attempt to protect religious freedom, said President Oaks. “The Church came out in favor of amendments that added religious freedom protections to the proposed Respect for Marriage Act,” he said. “The amended bill was signed into law, but its overall effect was misunderstood because many news stories focused on only the part of the act that affirmed same-sex marriage.”

He may have a point here.

Quote

President Oaks said the Respect for Marriage Act, as signed into law:

  • Includes valuable provisions to assure no federal or state laws could be used to harm the religious or conscience rights of faith-based institutions or their members. 
  • Ensures that religious organizations, religious schools and their staff do not have to perform or host same-sex marriages or celebrations.
  • Protects the tax-exempt status of religious organizations. 
  • Protects the grants, licenses, contracts and accreditation of religious schools. 
  • Provides that its own provisions cannot be used to violate anyone’s rights to religious freedom. 

“Putting such protections in the federal law was a big step forward,” said President Oaks. “We will be alert to proposed future state action and legislation as we continue our defense of religious freedom.”

The original statement from the Church on the RMA focused on "diverse beliefs," whereas the foregoing focuses on and emphasizes the "religious liberty" aspect of the RMA.

Quote

The clarification of the Church’s support for the Respect for Marriage Act came 15 months after President Oaks called for a peaceful resolution to the “painful conflicts between religious freedom and nondiscrimination.”

“Let us unite with those who advocate nondiscrimination to seek a culture and laws that respect the rights of all to the equal protection of the law and the right to the free exercise of religion,” President Oaks said on Nov. 12, 2021, in an address offered from the Dome Room of the Rotunda at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, Virginia.

In doing so, he added then, Latter-day Saints must not allow fears about losing religious freedoms make them insensitive to others’ claims for freedoms.

Here Pres. Oaks returns to the theme of consideration for other people's rights.  Good on him!

Quote

In that address, President Oaks said he is distressed at the way the nation is handling divisive issues.

“We have always had to work through serious political conflicts, but today too many approach that task as if their preferred outcome must entirely prevail over all others, even in our pluralistic society,” he said. “We need to work for a better way — a way to resolve differences without compromising core values. We need to live together in peace and mutual respect, within our defined constitutional rights.”

It is imperative, he said in Virginia, that both sides should not seek total dominance for their own position but should seek “fairness for all.”

Kudos to Pres. Oaks!

Thanks,

-Smac

Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, smac97 said:

An update on the Church's position re: the Respect for Marriage Act: Why Latter-day Saints leaders supported the Respect for Marriage Act; President Oaks clarifies the Church’s position

Huh.  I guess the prior statement ("Diverse beliefs about the role of gender in marriage are held by reasonable and sincere people based on decent and honorable religious or philosophical premises. Therefore, Congress affirms that such people and their diverse beliefs are due proper respect.") was not sufficient.

He may have a point here.

The original statement from the Church on the RMA focused on "diverse beliefs," whereas the foregoing focuses on and emphasizes the "religious liberty" aspect of the RMA.

Here Pres. Oaks returns to the theme of consideration for other people's rights.  Good on him!

Kudos to Pres. Oaks!

Thanks,

-Smac

I saw this Church News article just before I noticed your post citing it.

I believe there has been widespread misunderstanding about the Church leaders’ support of the Respect for Marriage Act — among our own people as well as among outsiders. In my view, this statement of clarification by President Oaks was sorely needed. I earnestly welcome it. 
 

Not long ago, there was a post on this board that included the Church leaders’ support for the Act on a list of examples of how the Church is changing. I responded at the time — and still feel — that the Church statement was, if anything, a doubling down on and a reaffirmation of the Church’s doctrinal view of marriage being between a man and a woman. I pointed out in my response that the Church’s expression of support focused on amendments to the legislation that sustain and protect religious freedom. I made essentially the same points then that President Oaks is making now in this statement of clarification. 
 

One thing that ought to draw our attention is the reaffirmation that the Church’s doctrinal position on marriage “has not changed” and, as stated at the time of the legislation’s enactment, “will not change.” This is very important in view of the continuing baseless and untenable expectation by some that the Church will one day abandon the Lord’s doctrine pertaining to marriage being between a man and a woman. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted (edited)
On 2/12/2023 at 5:37 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

I saw this Church News article just before I noticed your post citing it.

I believe there has been widespread misunderstanding about the Church leaders’ support of the Respect for Marriage Act — among our own people as well as among outsiders. In my view, this statement of clarification by President Oaks was sorely needed. I earnestly welcome it. 
 

Not long ago, there was a post on this board that included the Church leaders’ support for the Act on a list of examples of how the Church is changing. I responded at the time — and still feel — that the Church statement was, if anything, a doubling down on and a reaffirmation of the Church’s doctrinal view of marriage being between a man and a woman. I pointed out in my response that the Church’s expression of support focused on amendments to the legislation that sustain and protect religious freedom. I made essentially the same points then that President Oaks is making now in this statement of clarification. 
 

One thing that ought to draw our attention is the reaffirmation that the Church’s doctrinal position on marriage “has not changed” and, as stated at the time of the legislation’s enactment, “will not change.” This is very important in view of the continuing baseless and untenable expectation by some that the Church will one day abandon the Lord’s doctrine pertaining to marriage being between a man and a woman. 

I stand by my belief and prediction that the LDS Faith will eventually recognize, allow, and authorize martial temple sealings between committed same-gender couples after newer, future leadership replaces many/most of the current quorum.

After all, this is not the first time in which former prophets have affirmed “this [thing] will never change,” only to see changes to said thing in subsequent generations.  In fact, it's happened quite a few times over multiple aspects of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since it's inception.

But you keep doing you, Pres. Oaks and Scott Lloyd! 👍

Edited by Daniel2
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

I stand by my belief that the LDS Faith will eventually recognize, allow, and authorize martial sealings of committed same-gender couples in its temples after newer leadership replaces many/most of the current quorum.

After all, this is not the first time former prophets have affirmed “this [thing] will never change,” only to see changes in subsequent generations.

But you keep doing you, Pres. Oaks and Scott Lloyd! 👍

I stand by my belief that the Church will not do this, that there has never been any indication that such a change will happen, that there have been ample statements that the doctrines on this point are set, that same-sex relationships and behavior simply do not jibe with either the temporal or eternal elements of the Plan of Salvation, and that notions to the contrary are purely wishful thinking.

This could make an interesting discussion all on its own.  How would such relationships work relative to eternal progression and increase?  

I can certainly appreciate and respect the strongly-held desires of folks like you, Daniel.  But I can't help but view your hope/expectation as a radical eisegesis of the Restored Gospel.  That is, you are reading into the Church, its scriptures, its doctrines, etc., things that you want to see, rather than what the scriptures and doctrines actually say.

I fully affirm the 9th Article of Faith: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."  

And 2 Nephi 28:30 - "For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have."

I cannot get on board with the notion that I can justify a marked and calculated disobedience to revealed doctrines now because I hope or believe something will happen in the future to allow my current behavior. 

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I stand by my belief that the Church will not do this, that there has never been any indication that such a change will happen, that there have been ample statements that the doctrines on this point are set, that same-sex relationships and behavior simply do not jibe with either the temporal or eternal elements of the Plan of Salvation, and that notions to the contrary are purely wishful thinking.

And I stand with you. Eloquently stated. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
Posted
2 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

I stand by my belief and prediction that the LDS Faith will eventually recognize, allow, and authorize martial temple sealings between committed same-gender couples after newer, future leadership replaces many/most of the current quorum.

After all, this is not the first time in which former prophets have affirmed “this [thing] will never change,” only to see changes to said thing in subsequent generations.  In fact, it's happened quite a few times over multiple aspects of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since it's inception.

But you keep doing you, Pres. Oaks and Scott Lloyd! 👍

It’s not just President Oaks and me. The Church News piece indicated he was speaking for the First Presidency. I know from experience the Church News would not have written that in the article unless they were so instructed. 
 

So “you do you,” Daniel2. I’ll cast my lot with the prophets. 

Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, smac97 said:

I stand by my belief that the Church will not do this, that there has never been any indication that such a change will happen, that there have been ample statements that the doctrines on this point are set, that same-sex relationships and behavior simply do not jibe with either the temporal or eternal elements of the Plan of Salvation, and that notions to the contrary are purely wishful thinking.

This could make an interesting discussion all on its own.  How would such relationships work relative to eternal progression and increase?  

I can certainly appreciate and respect the strongly-held desires of folks like you, Daniel.  But I can't help but view your hope/expectation as a radical eisegesis of the Restored Gospel.  That is, you are reading into the Church, its scriptures, its doctrines, etc., things that you want to see, rather than what the scriptures and doctrines actually say.

I fully affirm the 9th Article of Faith: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."  

And 2 Nephi 28:30 - "For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have."

I cannot get on board with the notion that I can justify a marked and calculated disobedience to revealed doctrines now because I hope or believe something will happen in the future to allow my current behavior. 

Thanks,

-Smac

 

21 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And I stand with you. Eloquently stated. 

While we don't believe the same things, I fully stand in favor of you both advocating for your beliefs that church doctrine won't change on this issue.  It's no skin off my nose that you believe as you do--at least, not now that we (meaning, all couples, regardless of orientation and/or religious affiliation) share equal access to civil marriage.

In no way am I holding my breath or hope for the LDS Faith to change its policies on the matter; if it does so in my lifetime, it will not change my current affiliation as a Unitarian Universalist. I do not forsee me ever returning to membership in your church.

I've just seen enough change within it and it's history--even after "doubling down" on some doctrines in proclamations by the full First Presidency--to believe that the church will never change on this issue, especially in light of the church’s historical and ongoing changes with what marriage and sealings mean. Devout members who aren’t aware of or don’t understand those numerous changes may not know their own history. 

Smac, I absolutely see a few different paths the church could take to integrate the acceptance of sealed same-gender couples into its doctrinal tapestry without unravelling the whole.  And I am certainly not alone in this thread of thinking (though I certainly agree a majority of Latter-day Saints might not agree--yet).  A couple links to articles illustrating that others, even devout members of the Faith in good standing, are searching, pondering, and praying their way towards such possibilities:

"A Welding Link of Some Kind": Exploring a possible theology of same-sex marriage sealings

Oman, A Possible Theology of Same-Sex Marriage Sealings (the comments on this post are also a worthy read and illustrate diversity in reactions to these types of discussions, too).

As for whether or not following one's own spiritual answers/revelations counts as marked and calculated disobedience to revealed doctrines... well, I leave that between each of us and the divine.  Personal revelation is personal, and this recent poll in a separate thread on this very board demonstrated the vast majority of those who post here support following personal revelation, even when it contradicts what a prophet may say. 

And thanks for your support, Scott--I'll cast my lot with God. 

Best,

D

Edited by Daniel2

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