Creepy Old Man in Church

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In my experience most guys have the same sense of personal space as women in American culture. They are even more defensive about it.

Good to know.  I was wondering.  I know it doesn’t change with the older women I have talked to (though it hasn’t come up much), we are still sensitive about it older as younger.

[Kenngo1969]

I may be creepy, and I may be old, but don't blame me: I've been to church only sporadically in recent months!    (Seriously, I know this is no laughing matter: I hope you are able to come to a resolution.)

[MustardSeed]

I’m all for teaching the young women to set clear limits for themselves in addition to whatever else is done. 
 

 

[rodheadlee]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In my experience most guys have the same sense of personal space as women in American culture. They are even more defensive about it.

This is a good point. It's up to the women to grow a spine and defend their own personal space . People have different limits. I know women who love to get into your personal space. Some of that is cultural too. They don't mean anything by it.

What area is he an immigrant from?

 

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by rodheadlee

[Durangout]

23 hours ago, Duncan said:

yep, our past Stake RS President has these "visions" and "revelations". One of them was that a sister missionary was going to be her eternal companion and then she told the RS sisters in the ward this plan. The sister missionary wasn't in the room when this info was shared mind you. I could literally care less who is gay or not but I don't know that a 20 yr old sister missionary would marry a 60 plus yr woman that she barely knows. At the end of the day the sister finished her mission and married a man. I just think the delivery of this plan might not have been the best way of doing things. When I was the WML here I used to tell the missionaries if you feel uncomfortable get out of the situation, don't stay and find out what will happen, your safety is paramount.

Wow, yes these are all major red flags.  We had a situation like this and assigned a couple of men in the ward to shadow him at all times.  Where he went, they went.  It would’ve been unsafe to do otherwise.  Let the females’ feelings on this matter guide your actions. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Durangout

[Jerry Atric]

55 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Make the females’ feelings on this matter guide your actions

Why? The opening post explains more than once the old man hasn't done anything wrong. Apparently some of the women feel creeped out. Confronting the guy without knowing him or his background is a mistake in my opinion. 

If you had a investigator come to your ward all tatted up, smelling like alcohol and cigarettes week after week, and the women in your ward felt uncomfortable because of the way the man looked, would you have a couple men follow him because some women are uncomfortable?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[Saint Bonaventure]

There is kindness in clarity.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

hasn't done anything wrong

What do you mean by ‘wrong’? Do you mean illegal? I’m just an atheist, but by my morals, if I’m routinely making others feel extreme discomfort by invading their personal space I’m doing something wrong. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Jerry Atric]

13 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

, if I’m routinely making others feel extreme discomfort by invading their personal space I’m doing something wrong.

I disagree. Apparently the old guy is an immigrant, where's he from? Americans aren't touchy feely people,  we can be standoffish. Maybe this guy is from a country that kisses when greeting someone. Maybe men hold hands in the country where he's from. Maybe they kiss cheeks two or maybe three times when greeting. If so, that means he's already dialed back how he greets people here in America. You ever thought about that? 

If he's from Spain, Italy or Portugal, he's used to kissing women on each cheek when greeting them. If he's from France he's used to kissing them there or four times. Some Brazilians kiss more than once. Saudi Arabia they touch noses. Greece, a kiss is often a greeting. Argentina, a hug and a kiss. 

He could also be trying really hard to make friends. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I disagree. Apparently the old guy is an immigrant, where's he from? Americans aren't touchy feely people,  we can be standoffish. Maybe this guy is from a country that kisses when greeting someone. Maybe men hold hands in the country where he's from. Maybe they kiss cheeks two or maybe three times when greeting. If so, that means he's already dialed back how he greets people here in America. You ever thought about that? 

If he's from Spain, Italy or Portugal, he's used to kissing women on each cheek when greeting them. If he's from France he's used to kissing them there or four times. Some Brazilians kiss more than once. Saudi Arabia they touch noses. Greece, a kiss is often a greeting. Argentina, a hug and a kiss. 
 

I’m sorry, but is he in any of those places? I didn’t say to hang him or jail him. But if you invade someone’s personal space and make them feel physically unsafe that is wrong. 

7 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

He could also be trying really hard to make friends. 

Old men shouldn’t be trying really hard to be friends with 16 year old girls. 

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I disagree. Apparently the old guy is an immigrant, where's he from? Americans aren't touchy feely people,  we can be standoffish. Maybe this guy is from a country that kisses when greeting someone. Maybe men hold hands in the country where he's from. Maybe they kiss cheeks two or maybe three times when greeting. If so, that means he's already dialed back how he greets people here in America. You ever thought about that? 

If he's from Spain, Italy or Portugal, he's used to kissing women on each cheek when greeting them. If he's from France he's used to kissing them there or four times. Some Brazilians kiss more than once. Saudi Arabia they touch noses. Greece, a kiss is often a greeting. Argentina, a hug and a kiss. 

He could also be trying really hard to make friends. 

I think it's good to be on guard about it though. Have you seen posts by another poster on here, I believe it is @MorningStar sorry if wrong, she mentions a man in their stake or ward that is creepy and has done inappropriate things. Doesn't hurt to be on the safe side.

[MorningStar]

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think it's good to be on guard about it though. Have you seen posts by another poster on here, I believe it is @MorningStar sorry if wrong, she mentions a man in their stake or ward that is creepy and has done inappropriate things. Doesn't hurt to be on the safe side.

The guy in my ward was actually arrested for CP and I only found out because I had a prompting to Google him.

These young women should be taught to trust their instincts. My dad taught me this and it kept me safe. These situations are especially hard at church because we don’t want to make a scene, hurt any feelings, or “make anyone go inactive.” I mean, the girls who feel uncomfortable might eventually go inactive, but what’s more important is treating perverts like fragile little flowers. 😡

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

This is a good point. It's up to the women to grow a spine and defend their own personal space . People have different limits. I know women who love to get into your personal space. Some of that is cultural too. They don't mean anything by it.

That wasn’t my point at all. Women are less likely to complain about someone invading their personal space. Many are socialized to endure it.

If you want to experience what it is like to have your personal space routinely violated I recommend visiting a gay hookup bar.

[rodheadlee]

Maybe the guy lost a daughter and wishes he had one back. You really don't know anything about the guy and you should get to know him and figure out where he's coming from.

[rodheadlee]

Just now, The Nehor said:

That wasn’t my point at all. Women are less likely to complain about someone invading their personal space. Many are socialized to endure it.

If you want to experience what it is like to have your personal space routinely violated I recommend visiting a gay hookup bar.

BTDT

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, rodheadlee said:

Maybe the guy lost a daughter and wishes he had one back. You really don't know anything about the guy and you should get to know him and figure out where he's coming from.

Ugh.

[rodheadlee]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Ugh.

Whatever. 

[Durangout]

“seems to creep out many of the younger women on the branch (including my 17 year old daughter)…  He tends to stare a bit and he often comes and talks to the younger women and gets a little too much into their personal space…he is making everyone uncomfortable… he made them uncomfortable enough that they requested the elders sit between them…He is also making my daughter uncomfortable as well…a little too friendly, looks at her a bit too much and gets a little closer than he should when he tries to shake her hand...”

Predator most likely or maybe “just” disturbed.  Either way I wouldn’t let him anywhere near females of any age or young males.

[Tacenda]

39 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Maybe the guy lost a daughter and wishes he had one back. You really don't know anything about the guy and you should get to know him and figure out where he's coming from.

Please....

[rodheadlee]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Please....

Yeah no sense in getting to know the guy. Sins of omission are greater than sins of commission. I'm bowing out. You're self righteous attitudes bore me. I never got to have a daughter so what would I know. 

Edited September 6, 2022 by rodheadlee

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah no sense in getting to know the guy. Sins of omission are greater than sins of commission. I'm bowing out. You're self righteous attitudes bore me. I never got to have a daughter so what would I know. 

I've seen it, in certain situations, I've been a reciprocate of it, so it is close to home. That's how I picture the opening poster's concern. Sorry if I offended.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Kudos to the people who have suggested actually going up to the guy and talking to him directly like a human being.

When the rest of y'all kneel at the feet of your Master, perhaps He'll ask you about the advice you gave, when someone was wondering how to deal with this guy.  About how you applied the 2nd great commandment.  About how you befriended and fellowshipped not just the ninety-and-nine, but also the one.  About how well you studied the scriptures, and understood what the Lord felt about gossip.

I mean, I know approaching someone difficult, can be a daunting task requiring no small amount of courage.  But surely "talking about him behind his back and calling him names" isn't that great of an alternate option...

 

Here's some food for thought: "I was talking to him a little, and he said he wishes he could take one of those girlies home with him and show them a good time."  Now it's easy to decide what to do - there's firsthand proof that there is a valid, immediate threat.   But if everyone just keeps their distance, whispering dark evil at each other from the pews, and he actually manages to assault someone - anyone think any responsibility falls on the ward members who did nothing but gossip?

Think of yourself talking to the young woman, who is tearfully begging "if everyone saw this guy, why didn't someone do something?"

Edited September 6, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've seen it, in certain situations, I've been a reciprocate of it, so it is close to home. That's how I picture the opening poster's concern. Sorry if I offended.

In this case it wasn't proven that he physically attacked her, but he did do creepy things and he was the Missionary Training president at the time, it does affect women. And if it's happening to many women in a ward, do they not count? https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-leaders-told-5-times-about-sex-allegations-against-former-mtc-president

Edited September 6, 2022 by Tacenda

[rpn]

Seems to me that before you can address the issue fully (and meaningfully for a lifetime for those involved), you need to be find out what the people are objecting to.   And what they already tried to do.   If the person is getting to close, then they can move back or extend their arm and say, "That's close enough", or "when you get this close to me, I feel uncomfortable, that is why I back away.  Please don't be that close to me."     When people haven't learned or don't stand up for themselves and their feelings, but only complain to others, it is hard for anyone to know what to do differently (especially if they are themselves socially challenged).  Wouldn't hurt to give them some self-defense moves training too.

People also need to decide for themselves and enforce their own boundaries (and parents can help this by asking to hug or touch or get close to their children).   It isn't going to be useful for you to do something with this man until/unless/if you haven't worked with the uncomfortable people about establishing and defending their own boundaries.

Before writing of the guy as a pervert, you might find out if he is hard of hearing and moves closer because of it.  Or if he is visually impaired and can't see further away.    If he is intellectually challenged or has spent a life time without much outside socialization, you may need to simply teach him arms length and if all the mean establish the arms length stuff.  that can help him understand the social norms.    Maybe you can help him with that by having a joint RS/EQP social skills party where you practice best practices.  Maybe if his ministering people can get to know him well enough to learn what skill or story telling skills he has and after giving him hugs and shaking his hand so he has the human touch that we all need, he will be able to fix whatever he is doing wrongly and those around him can see him as eccentric bro ______ rather pervert.

[Thinking]

There was a man who crossed the line in my ward in Southern California in the 1970s. He was a member of the ward and started giving frontal hugs to the women in the ward. Sometimes he would pick them up off the ground during the hug. It didn't last very long so I'm guessing either the bishop talked to him or "that" sister let him know what would happen if he continued. Anyway, if my memory is correct, he eventually stopped coming to church. I don't know if he moved or just faded away. He was CREEPY.