Creepy Old Man in Church

[MorningStar]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Kudos to the people who have suggested actually going up to the guy and talking to him directly like a human being.

When the rest of y'all kneel at the feet of your Master, perhaps He'll ask you about the advice you gave, when someone was wondering how to deal with this guy.  About how you applied the 2nd great commandment.  About how you befriended and fellowshipped not just the ninety-and-nine, but also the one.  About how well you studied the scriptures, and understood what the Lord felt about gossip.

I mean, I know approaching someone difficult, can be a daunting task requiring no small amount of courage.  But surely "talking about him behind his back and calling him names" isn't that great of an alternate option...

 

Here's some food for thought: "I was talking to him a little, and he said he wishes he could take one of those girlies home with him and show them a good time."  Now it's easy to decide what to do - there's firsthand proof that there is a valid, immediate threat.   But if everyone just keeps their distance, whispering dark evil at each other from the pews, and he actually manages to assault someone - anyone think any responsibility falls on the ward members who did nothing but gossip?

Think of yourself talking to the young woman, who is tearfully begging "if everyone saw this guy, why didn't someone do something?"

Sometimes even the most loved and seemingly normal people turn out to be predators. They know how to get others to trust them. I've known multiple men who were creepy as heck, were terrible at hiding it, and did eventually violate women or children. So many people think the pedophile in our ward is soooooo nice and gentlemanly. Here he is chatting up an 11-year-old in Yahoo games. Isn't he so gentlemanly? I mean bowing, offering a rose, a kiss on the hand? Username is an Egyptian god wolf character. Why would he choose a wolf? Interesting. There's another chat where the entire conversation was redacted because it apparently was that revolting. Bishop told me to be careful with his police records. Yep, I'll be sure not to lose them. Wink wink. 

Imagine being in the chapel while prelude is playing and this guy turns to your 9-year-old daughter and says, "You can tell who this one belongs to. She looks just like you." I just about exploded. It took all of my restraint not to scream at him in what is supposed to be a sacred space. He also "accidentally" bumped into my friend's daughter at a backyard wedding reception when there was plenty of space. He made eye contact with my friend immediately after and he startled. He shouldn't interact with children period. A couple Christmases ago he was photo bombing families. Yes, he's clueless and he's also a pervert.

He got no prison time at all.

"I understand about family rules." What a saint! He sometimes helped kids with their math there to prove he wasn't a monster. 

[rodheadlee]

32 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Sometimes even the most loved and seemingly normal people turn out to be predators. They know how to get others to trust them. I've known multiple men who were creepy as heck, were terrible at hiding it, and did eventually violate women or children. So many people think the pedophile in our ward is soooooo nice and gentlemanly. Here he is chatting up an 11-year-old in Yahoo games. Isn't he so gentlemanly? I mean bowing, offering a rose, a kiss on the hand? Username is an Egyptian god wolf character. Why would he choose a wolf? Interesting. There's another chat where the entire conversation was redacted because it apparently was that revolting. Bishop told me to be careful with his police records. Yep, I'll be sure not to lose them. Wink wink. 

Imagine being in the chapel while prelude is playing and this guy turns to your 9-year-old daughter and says, "You can tell who this one belongs to. She looks just like you." I just about exploded. It took all of my restraint not to scream at him in what is supposed to be a sacred space. He also "accidentally" bumped into my friend's daughter at a backyard wedding reception when there was plenty of space. He made eye contact with my friend immediately after and he startled. He shouldn't interact with children period. A couple Christmases ago he was photo bombing families. Yes, he's clueless and he's also a pervert.

He got no prison time at all.

"I understand about family rules." What a saint! He sometimes helped kids with their math there to prove he wasn't a monster. 

And sometimes not. 

Rod Out

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Kudos to the people who have suggested actually going up to the guy and talking to him directly like a human being.

When the rest of y'all kneel at the feet of your Master, perhaps He'll ask you about the advice you gave, when someone was wondering how to deal with this guy.  About how you applied the 2nd great commandment.  About how you befriended and fellowshipped not just the ninety-and-nine, but also the one.  About how well you studied the scriptures, and understood what the Lord felt about gossip.

I mean, I know approaching someone difficult, can be a daunting task requiring no small amount of courage.  But surely "talking about him behind his back and calling him names" isn't that great of an alternate option...

 

Here's some food for thought: "I was talking to him a little, and he said he wishes he could take one of those girlies home with him and show them a good time."  Now it's easy to decide what to do - there's firsthand proof that there is a valid, immediate threat.   But if everyone just keeps their distance, whispering dark evil at each other from the pews, and he actually manages to assault someone - anyone think any responsibility falls on the ward members who did nothing but gossip?

Think of yourself talking to the young woman, who is tearfully begging "if everyone saw this guy, why didn't someone do something?"

Yes, all of these options are available to me: a person who heard about this on the internet who does not go to the ward in question.

[Danzo]

23 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Still nothing wrong. Yes. Some people are a little too friendly and get a little too close. So what. People are different. 

The women in the ward think that he is hitting on their daughters.  The sister missionaries think he is hitting on them.  I don't know of his intentions, but I really can't ignore these sisters.  

 

23 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Maybe instead of confronting him about his behavior, ask him to lunch, take him to a movie. Become his friend. Maybe he's lonely and doesn't understand how to act around people. There's a thousand ways to go about it before telling him he's strange

Up until a few months ago he was living out of his car.  We have tried subtly but it doesn't seem to have solved the problem.  He doesn't seem to be taking hints.  For this reason, we have decided to confront him. 

[Danzo]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

Since he is an immigrant, it may be a cultural difference, but if it is just happening with women and the younger ones especially, that is a red flag. Even if cultural, it needs to change.

He is an immigrant but so is everyone else in the branch (its a Spanish unit).

[Jerry Atric]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The women in the ward think that he is hitting on their daughters.  The sister missionaries think he is hitting on them.  I don't know of his intentions, but I really can't ignore these sisters.  

 

Up until a few months ago he was living out of his car.  We have tried subtly but it doesn't seem to have solved the problem.  He doesn't seem to be taking hints.  For this reason, we have decided to confront him. 

Do you know where he lived before coming to America? I'm assuming you live in America. 

Just answered,  thanks

Edited September 7, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[Danzo]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

That is possible.  Maybe Danzo could talk to a few people who have had concerns and ask them to pay attention to see if it occurs with others, not just the young women.  But given our culture, if someone is moving in close or touching a lot, I would think it would be noticed by men as much as women and definitely would be noticed by older women as well as young.

His behavior has been discussed regularly in branch counsel.  It would seem that most of the men don't notice the behavior but all of the women do.  The guy once told the sisters that he was "Checking them out".  

[Danzo]

15 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m all for teaching the young women to set clear limits for themselves in addition to whatever else is done. 
 

 

This has definitely been a learning opportunity for our daughter.  This guy has given us many reasons to talk about how to deal with unwanted attention (real or perceived).  She knows she needs to stick with us and keep to public places in the church building. 

[Danzo]

11 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

This is a good point. It's up to the women to grow a spine and defend their own personal space . People have different limits. I know women who love to get into your personal space. Some of that is cultural too. They don't mean anything by it.

What area is he an immigrant from?

 

 

He is from Mexico along with most of the members of our branch (some are from Guatemala and some from Chile).  Mexico is a culturally diverse place so people often have different cultural practices from different areas. 

Although it is good for women to defend their personal space, I don't think defending personal space should be the primary focus when they attend church. 

[Danzo]

9 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Why? The opening post explains more than once the old man hasn't done anything wrong. Apparently some of the women feel creeped out. Confronting the guy without knowing him or his background is a mistake in my opinion. 

If you had a investigator come to your ward all tatted up, smelling like alcohol and cigarettes week after week, and the women in your ward felt uncomfortable because of the way the man looked, would you have a couple men follow him because some women are uncomfortable?

The guy bothers the women, he doesn't bother the men.  Its the women's feelings I have to be concerned about because they are the ones that feel uncomfortable. 

[Danzo]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

Seems to me that before you can address the issue fully (and meaningfully for a lifetime for those involved), you need to be find out what the people are objecting to.   And what they already tried to do.   If the person is getting to close, then they can move back or extend their arm and say, "That's close enough", or "when you get this close to me, I feel uncomfortable, that is why I back away.  Please don't be that close to me."     When people haven't learned or don't stand up for themselves and their feelings, but only complain to others, it is hard for anyone to know what to do differently (especially if they are themselves socially challenged).  Wouldn't hurt to give them some self-defense moves training too.

People also need to decide for themselves and enforce their own boundaries (and parents can help this by asking to hug or touch or get close to their children).   It isn't going to be useful for you to do something with this man until/unless/if you haven't worked with the uncomfortable people about establishing and defending their own boundaries.

Before writing of the guy as a pervert, you might find out if he is hard of hearing and moves closer because of it.  Or if he is visually impaired and can't see further away.    If he is intellectually challenged or has spent a life time without much outside socialization, you may need to simply teach him arms length and if all the mean establish the arms length stuff.  that can help him understand the social norms.    Maybe you can help him with that by having a joint RS/EQP social skills party where you practice best practices.  Maybe if his ministering people can get to know him well enough to learn what skill or story telling skills he has and after giving him hugs and shaking his hand so he has the human touch that we all need, he will be able to fix whatever he is doing wrongly and those around him can see him as eccentric bro ______ rather pervert.

All good advice.  That is why I want to confront the guy  as nicely as possible.  Subtle hints don't appear to be working.  

[Danzo]

14 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Do you know where he lived before coming to America? I'm assuming you live in America. 

Just answered,  thanks

I believe he is from Michoacán, Mexico.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Danzo said:

The guy once told the sisters that he was "Checking them out".  

Red flag

added:  it shows he recognizes his behaviour will be seen in such a context, that even his mind is going to sex when he thinks about his behaviour and not staying in the friendliness mode, where it wouldn’t occur to him that people would assume he was checking the young women out.
 

Now he may be clueless and is just acknowledging he understands he will be seen that way and doesn’t care about others’ perceptions or feelings (which is a problem in itself), but my bigger concern is he is trying to treat it as a joke and this to create doubt in the young women’s minds that they have a right to feel uncomfortable about it. This will allow him to continue what is most likely predatory behaviour in my view now because if his method works, the young women will be ashamed of themselves thinking he is creepy. 
 

So not just a red flag to me, but a huge red flag. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Calm

[MorningStar]

Women know when they’re being leered at. 

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

He is from Mexico along with most of the members of our branch (some are from Guatemala and some from Chile).  Mexico is a culturally diverse place so people often have different cultural practices from different areas. 

Although it is good for women to defend their personal space, I don't think defending personal space should be the primary focus when they attend church. 

Well my suggestion is make friends with him and see what he's up to. I try to assume the best of everyone when  I  first meet them. It doesn't hurt to be wary these days but you should give the guy a chance. I wouldn't go to the bishop or nothing I'd take care of it myself.

If you're that worried about it hire a detective and run a make on him.

I grew up in the Peace, love, dope era of California as a non member. I think my BS detector works better than the average BIC Utah member's. I have pretty much seen it all. You guys might be more timid or more wary  of strangers. I don't know I'm not very good at descriptions.

[MustardSeed]

57 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Well my suggestion is make friends with him and see what he's up to. I try to assume the best of everyone when  I  first meet them. It doesn't hurt to be wary these days but you should give the guy a chance. 

 

I grew up in the Peace, love, dope era of California as a non member. I think my BS detector works better than the average BIC Utah member's. I have pretty much seen it all. 

Men often have the luxury of erring on the side of giving a guy a chance. 
You’re awfully lucky that way.  
 

Women know when something is up. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Well my suggestion is make friends with him and see what he's up to. I try to assume the best of everyone when  I  first meet them. It doesn't hurt to be wary these days but you should give the guy a chance. I wouldn't go to the bishop or nothing I'd take care of it myself.

If you're that worried about it hire a detective and run a make on him.

I grew up in the Peace, love, dope era of California as a non member. I think my BS detector works better than the average BIC Utah member's. I have pretty much seen it all. You guys might be more timid or more wary  of strangers. I don't know I'm not very good at descriptions.

What is your interpretation when he was joking about “checking them out”?  Serious question as I would like another POV.  Since he said that, he is not clueless that his behaviour can be interpreted as sexually assertive and given who he was talking to, inappropriate rather than just friendly. He is not oblivious to the effect he is having on the young women, but he is also not changing his behaviour. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

What is your interpretation when he was joking about “checking them out”?  Serious question as I would like another POV.  Since he said that, he is not clueless that his behaviour can be interpreted as sexually assertive and given who he was talking to, inappropriate rather than just friendly. He is not oblivious to the effect he is having on the young women, but he is also not changing his behaviour. 

You cant tell from here. You have to be on site. If something needs to be said I would say it to his face I would not go up the chain of command. I would just take him aside and have a chat with him. 

[MorningStar]

How old is this man? I find it hard to believe that no one has called him on his behavior before. A different guy I dealt with in my choir - I know his daughter. She said he is a grown man that should've learned by now and refuses to. His own parents won't even talk to him anymore and apologized to the family over how he turned out. The women saw trouble coming from a mile away and had to wait for him to cross a line. It was extremely frustrating. He was close to his 60s and always private messaging much younger women. "How are you wearing your hair to rehearsal tonight?" "You still haven't accepted my friend request." "I'm at a restaurant and the only thing that could make this experience better is if you were here." He's married. When we tried to call attention to it, men said he's just a kindly old man. No he's not. He ended up groping two of my friends. 

If men act like creeps, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt. I stay away from them. Not my fault they haven't caught on to the norms of society. No one taught them not to stare at young women? Well, that's too bad. The guy who leered at everyone in my singles ward ended up groping a girl at FHE. He offered multiple times previously to give me a ride home. Nope. Asked me one time, "Why do you hate me?" I walked away. I'm not nice to creeps and I will not treat them like a non-creep until they give me reason to. This girl fell down playing soccer and rather than offering his hand, he placed his hand under her rear to help her up. A friend and I looked at each other in disbelief. "Did you see that?!" Girl walked away and turned her head towards him in disgust. That's how big a creep he is. He's so out of touch, he thought he had the perfect excuse to touch her butt. He was from the Dominican Republic. Is it their culture to help women up by touching their rear end and then smiling really big? Probably not. Is it their culture to look your body up and down non-stop while they talk to you? That's what this guy did all the time and I couldn't tolerate 30 seconds of conversation with him because of the creepy way he smiled as he scanned my body. The worst. 

[3DOP]

7 hours ago, MorningStar said:

How old is this man? I find it hard to believe that no one has called him on his behavior before. A different guy I dealt with in my choir - I know his daughter. She said he is a grown man that should've learned by now and refuses to. His own parents won't even talk to him anymore and apologized to the family over how he turned out. The women saw trouble coming from a mile away and had to wait for him to cross a line. It was extremely frustrating. He was close to his 60s and always private messaging much younger women. "How are you wearing your hair to rehearsal tonight?" "You still haven't accepted my friend request." "I'm at a restaurant and the only thing that could make this experience better is if you were here." He's married. When we tried to call attention to it, men said he's just a kindly old man. No he's not. He ended up groping two of my friends. 

If men act like creeps, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt. I stay away from them. Not my fault they haven't caught on to the norms of society. No one taught them not to stare at young women? Well, that's too bad. The guy who leered at everyone in my singles ward ended up groping a girl at FHE. He offered multiple times previously to give me a ride home. Nope. Asked me one time, "Why do you hate me?" I walked away. I'm not nice to creeps and I will not treat them like a non-creep until they give me reason to. This girl fell down playing soccer and rather than offering his hand, he placed his hand under her rear to help her up. A friend and I looked at each other in disbelief. "Did you see that?!" Girl walked away and turned her head towards him in disgust. That's how big a creep he is. He's so out of touch, he thought he had the perfect excuse to touch her butt. He was from the Dominican Republic. Is it their culture to help women up by touching their rear end and then smiling really big? Probably not. Is it their culture to look your body up and down non-stop while they talk to you? That's what this guy did all the time and I couldn't tolerate 30 seconds of conversation with him because of the creepy way he smiled as he scanned my body. The worst. 

It is called custody of the eyes. To lack this is to invite impure thoughts.

 

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

You cant tell from here. You have to be on site. If something needs to be said I would say it to his face I would not go up the chain of command. I would just take him aside and have a chat with him. 

Better to call him out publicly. The humiliation might convince him to leave.