Missionaries and Chastity

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hmmm. Pressing your roommate down to his desk with your body multiple times is just a flirt message. Interesting. Never thought of it that way.

Definitely harassment! And I'm sure you were young since this was in college? I can imagine what a horrible experience this was. Especially since you're heterosexual and you probably hadn't had another man do that to you before. And how it must have felt for you to have that dampen the experience of attending college and probably not imagining that to have happen.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Definitely harassment! And I'm sure you were young since this was in college? I can imagine what a horrible experience this was. Especially since you're heterosexual and you probably hadn't had another man do that to you before. And how it must have felt for you to have that dampen the experience of attending college and probably not imagining that to have happen.

It’s been a while since I was involved in the guys flirting with guys scene but even back then this would be viewed as creepy and predatory by the people in it. I am sure it would be looked at more harshly now.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

 

To answer your question directly - it is ok in a world where physical contact/non-verbal communication/flirting can be interpreted many different ways by different people and where there is no objective right answer to any of this.  There is no clear objective boundary on physical touch or flirting as to what is "okay" and what is "not okay".  Cleary private parts are out of bounds, beyond that it is pretty vague and subjective/cultural with different personal boundaries and comfort levels with each individual.  

It doesn't seem that Bernard ever told him to stop or that it made him feel uncomfortable.  All he said was that he got up and left.  That is a form of non-verbal communication that could be interpreted in different ways.  We can't expect people to read our minds.  For all we know since Bernard never said anything about it, he may have interpreted that to mean that Bernard didn't get the flirt message and that he needed to try again, or try harder next time.  That would not be sexual harassment until it was made verbally clear that Bernard was uncomfortable and he was asked to stop.  If he continued after that, then it would cross the lines into sexual harassment. 

I think women have learned these lessons much better than men.   

I completely disagree.  Any ‘flirting’ that restricts physical movement in any way is not acceptable Imo. What Bernard described is similar to a guy moving in and pinning someone against a wall. That is not flirting, that is dominating. 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, YJacket said:

Okay, so good we have established that words do matter, words do count.

So why is it appropriate for a missionary to openly tell everyone that he would like to have romantic/sexual encounters with the same-sex?  Why is that even remotely acceptable. 

The only person saying that that is acceptable is you.

[Peacefully]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Of the LGBT community: The L and the G are generally leaving though some are still around eking out a place. Any T that acts on their dysphoria is probably going to be kicked out if they do not leave on their own. Many of the B group can (and do) pass as heterosexual but as more of them are discovering they aren’t oddities or just confused they sometimes leave in solidarity. The homoromantic and those with a strong preference for their own gender often leave.

I was referring to Y Jacket. 

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hmmm. Pressing your roommate down to his desk with your body multiple times is just a flirt message. Interesting. Never thought of it that way.

I think perhaps Pogi was talking about the women using foul language. Maybe he didn’t read the part about the guy physically touching you to the point you were pinned down to the desk. That was an invasion of your space and sexual harassment. It didn’t matter if you said something or not, he was in the wrong and I’m sorry this happened to you. 

[pogi]

16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hmmm. Pressing your roommate down to his desk with your body multiple times is just a flirt message. Interesting. Never thought of it that way.

That sounds more like assault.  Is that what happened?  This is progressively sounding worse and worse and worse.  At first you said "my roommate at BYU was gay. Several times he made moves on me."  If I make a move on a girl, that is called "flirting" in my mind.  Pressing you against the desk with their body is something else entirely.

When you said that you were pinned to the desk, I thought you were being facetious based on your other comments of the events.  Look, I am not trying to diminish what happened to you.  I wasn't there.  All I can do is interpret your words.  If I am interpreting it wrong, I can accept that.  

This is what you described next (and what I was interpreting):

Quote

I would be sitting at my desk doing homework and he would come and look over my shoulder. He would continue to lean in until he touched my back. I would move away, but eventually my chest and head were pinned on the desktop. I would then stand up and walk away.That is the problem with words, they can portray different things to different people.

When you said that he would lean in "until" he touched your back, that means he wasn't "pressing you against the desk" in any way in my mind.  Honestly, it is hard to look over someones back without getting very close or touching their back.  I didn't get the impression that he was forcing himself on you or restraining you against the desk in any way.  You were already sitting at the desk doing your homework, so I can see how looking over your back might make you feel creeped out and trapped, but I could also see how a girl doing that to a boy would be considered flirting.  Your new version makes it sound like there was much more physical pressure and restraining against the desk.   If that is what happened, then yes, that was more than just flirting. 

You next stated that "I wasn't angry, but it was very annoying.  It made me uncomfortable enough to want to change roommates."  Again, that all sound fairly minor to me with the language you were using to describe your reaction.  I wanted to change roommates several times for things they did that annoyed me.  It was all relatively minor stuff.  No harassment.  That is the problem with language and experience/perspective.  It is different for all of us. 

I fully acknowledged why that might make you feel uncomfortable.  But if it was a cute girl looking over my back while I was doing homework at a desk, while very lightly touching my back (which is how you described it initially), I would have considered that flirting.  If I leaned against the desk and she moved in to lightly touch my back again, I wouldn't call that sexual harassment.  Way too vague.   Without a verbal warning to stop, that girl would not deserve to be charged with sexual harassment. A serious accusation with very serious life-changing consequences.     If you were not being facetious and he literally physically pinned your body and head against the desk by pressing his body against yours against your will - that is something else entirely.  

I am not trying to diminish what happened to you.  All I can do is interpret your language.  Again, if I am wrong in my interpretation.  I can accept that.

You haven't directly stated how you interpret this event other than it made you uncomfortable and annoyed.  It is clear that you wouldn't call it flirting (this is news to me), but you haven't said that you would call it assault or sexual harassment either.  So, I am left guessing as to what actually happened.  Was it a gentle lean in "until" he touched your back, or was he "pressing" his body and pinning it against the desk?  2 very different version of events.   Would you call what happened sexual harassment by todays standards?  I will believe you if that is how you interpret it.  But based on your original couple of posts/descriptions, it just didn't sound that way to me.

I would not personally feel comfortable convicting someone of sexual harassment based on your initial description alone.  Way too vague for me and can be interpreted in different ways.  The more you talk, the more it is sounding like harassment though. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I completely disagree.  Any ‘flirting’ that restricts physical movement in any way is not acceptable Imo. What Bernard described is similar to a guy moving in and pinning someone against a wall. That is not flirting, that is dominating. 

See my post above.  If that is what happened, I fully agree.  That is not how I read his first two comments that I was responding to though.  I am happy to stand corrected if that is what happened.  

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by pogi

[blackstrap]

From the full description, if a man had done that to a woman the foo would have hit the fan and if in an office , HR would be involved quickly. Now , if a woman had done that to a man, would it have been  perceived as sexual ? 

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

From the full description, if a man had done that to a woman the foo would have hit the fan and if in an office , HR would be involved quickly. Now , if a woman had done that to a man, would it have been  perceived as sexual ? 

If a girl was leaning over my back to see what I was doing at work, and lightly touched my back (hard not to do).  It is hard to say how I would interpret it.  It would depend  on a lot of different variables.  It could be innocent.  It could be a flirt.  If I moved forward and she kept doing it, I would perceived it as unwanted, awkward, and uncomfortable flirting if a girl did that to me.  If she pressed my body against the desk with her body...I would be calling the cops!  

Flirting is sexual in nature, so yes, I would perceive it as sexual.  If it was just a light touch while looking over my back, I wouldn't call it harassment until I made it beyond clear verbally that I want them to stop, and they don't.  I think the same standard and threshold for sexual harassment would (or should, at least) app to each sex equally. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

dup

Edited August 17, 2022 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

That sounds more like assault.  Is that what happened?  This is progressively sounding worse and worse and worse.  At first you said "my roommate at BYU was gay. Several times he made moves on me."  If I make a move on a girly, that is called "flirting" in my mind.  Pressing you against the desk with their body is something else entirely.

When you said that you were pinned to the desk, I thought you were being facetious based on your other comments of the events.  Look, I am not trying to diminish what happened to you.  I wasn't there.  All I can do is interpret your words.  If I am interpreting it wrong, I can accept that.  

This is what you described next (and what I was interpreting):

When you said that he would lean in "until" he touched your back, that means he wasn't "pressing you against the desk" in any way in my mind.  Honestly, it is hard to look over someones back without getting very close or touching their back.  I didn't get the impression that he was forcing himself on you or restraining you against the desk in any way.  You were already sitting at the desk doing your homework, so I can see how looking over your back might make you feel creeped out and trapped, but I could also see how a girl doing that to a boy would be considered flirting.  Your new version makes it sound like there was much more physical pressure and restraining against the desk.   If that is what happened, then yes, that was more than just flirting. 

You next stated that "I wasn't angry, but it was very annoying.  It made me uncomfortable enough to want to change roommates."  Again, that all sound fairly minor to me with the language you were using to describe your reaction.  I wanted to change roommates several times for things they did that annoyed me.  It was all relatively minor stuff.  No harassment.  That is the problem with language and experience/perspective.  It is different for all of us. 

I fully acknowledged why that might make you feel uncomfortable.  But if it was a cute girl looking over my back while I was doing homework at a desk, while very lightly touching my back (which is how you described it initially), I would have considered that flirting.  If I leaned against the desk and she moved in to lightly touch my back again, I wouldn't call that sexual harassment.  Way too vague.   Without a verbal warning to stop, that girl would not deserve to be charged with sexual harassment. A serious accusation with very serious life-changing consequences.     If you were not being facetious and he literally physically pinned your body and head against the desk by pressing his body against yours against your will - that is something else entirely.  

I am not trying to diminish what happened to you.  All I can do is interpret your language.  Again, if I am wrong in my interpretation.  I can accept that.

You haven't directly stated how you interpret this event other than it made you uncomfortable and annoyed.  It is clear that you wouldn't call it flirting (this is news to me), but you haven't said that you would call it assault or sexual harassment either.  So, I am left guessing as to what actually happened.  Was it a gentle lean in "until" he touched your back, or was he "pressing" his body and pinning it against the desk?  2 very different version of events.   Would you call what happened sexual harassment by todays standards?  I will believe you if that is how you interpret it.  But based on your original couple of posts/descriptions, it just didn't sound that way to me.

I would not personally feel comfortable convicting someone of sexual harassment based on your initial description alone.  Way too vague for me and can be interpreted in different ways.  The more you talk, the more it is sounding like harassment though. 

Who is asking for a conviction? I have repeatedly said I was not angry or traumatized. I think I have been clear enough that you can understand what happened. Accept it.
 

BTW, I’m not a girly. Isn’t that an offensive word?

 

9 hours ago, pogi said:

See my post above.  If that is what happened, I fully agree.  That is not how I read his first two comments that I was responding to though.  I am happy to stand corrected if that is what happened.  

 

Be happy.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Definitely harassment! And I'm sure you were young since this was in college? I can imagine what a horrible experience this was. Especially since you're heterosexual and you probably hadn't had another man do that to you before. And how it must have felt for you to have that dampen the experience of attending college and probably not imagining that to have happen.

No, it did not make me feel angry or traumatized. Very uncomfortable, and ‘What the hey?’ yes. Enough to go through the roommate change procedures and to avoid him in the dorm.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Raingirl]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I completely disagree.  Any ‘flirting’ that restricts physical movement in any way is not acceptable Imo. What Bernard described is similar to a guy moving in and pinning someone against a wall. That is not flirting, that is dominating. 

It’s frustrating and concerning that some don’t understand this. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for some men to excuse sexual harassment as “flirting”. Unwanted physical contact is never okay. That’s not flirting. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I think perhaps Pogi was talking about the women using foul language. Maybe he didn’t read the part about the guy physically touching you to the point you were pinned down to the desk. That was an invasion of your space and sexual harassment. It didn’t matter if you said something or not, he was in the wrong and I’m sorry this happened to you. 

Thank you. This was in 1964. Folks didn’t have the benefits of harassment training. It wasn’t even on my radar. I wasn’t traumatized, just annoyed. I’m not a confrontational person, so my reaction was just to walk away. Same with the foulmouthed ladies in the faculty room. I got me out. 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, it did not make me angry or traumatized. Very uncomfortable, and ‘What the hey?’ yes. Enough to go through the roommate change procedures and to avoid him in the dorm.

 

Was putting myself in your shoes. I'm glad you didn't have those feelings that I think I would have had.

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Was putting myself in your shoes. I'm glad you didn't have those feelings that I think I would have had.

Thanks. I understand what you are saying.

[pogi]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who is asking for a conviction? I have repeatedly said I was not angry or traumatized. I think I have been clear enough that you can understand what happened. Accept it.

I seem to be getting plenty of heat over this.  Two people can read the same description of events and perceive it in vastly different ways.  It wasn't clear to me what happened at all.  I had a VASTLY different image of events in my mind from your first and second description to how you later described the incident - which I envisioned more like WWE on our desk.  I am a very visual person.  That is what came to mind.  I don't take accusations of sexual harassment lightly.   Your first two reports gave one image in my mind of events that I would not have judged as sexual harassment (not even you called it that) - I doubt anyone here would either if they could see what I see based on how I interpreted his words.  I accept there are multiple ways to perceive things.  Now that I know he wasn't being facetious, it sounds like his later description is the more accurate one.  I can accept that. 

I was simply trying to explain why I interpreted it the way I did.  I could totally understand how people could read that different ways.   No need to jump on me people.  It was an honest misinterpretation of events. 

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

BTW, I’m not a girly. Isn’t that an offensive word?

Unfortunate thumb typo. I think you know that I would never insinuate that you were girly or refer to other females as "girly".

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Be happy.

Happy as a clam 

[Amulek]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

All he said was that he got up and left. 

Yes, he got up and left...after he ran out of room to move away from the person who continued to make unwanted sexual contact with him.

And this sort of thing happened on more than one occasion.

 

14 hours ago, pogi said:

That is a form of non-verbal communication that could be interpreted in different ways. We can't expect people to read our minds.

I don't think it takes a mind reader to understand what is being communicated when somebody physically moves away from you every time you touch them.

 

14 hours ago, pogi said:

For all we know since Bernard never said anything about it, he may have interpreted that to mean that Bernard didn't get the flirt message and that he needed to try again, or try harder next time.  That would not be sexual harassment until it was made verbally clear that Bernard was uncomfortable and he was asked to stop. 

I disagree. Lack of consent can be expressed through words or conduct. And when somebody physically moves away from you every time you touch them, it's pretty clear (at least to me) that they are not consenting to your sexual advances.

And what do we call it when somebody continues to make sexual advances or sexual contact without the other person's consent? Oh yes, sexual harassment (or sexual assault, depending on how far things go).

 

[pogi]

50 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Yes, he got up and left...after he ran out of room to move away from the person who continued to make unwanted sexual contact with him.

And this sort of thing happened on more than one occasion.

 

I don't think it takes a mind reader to understand what is being communicated when somebody physically moves away from you every time you touch them.

 

I disagree. Lack of consent can be expressed through words or conduct. And when somebody physically moves away from you every time you touch them, it's pretty clear (at least to me) that they are not consenting to your sexual advances.

And what do we call it when somebody continues to make sexual advances or sexual contact without the other person's consent? Oh yes, sexual harassment (or sexual assault, depending on how far things go).

Clearly we interpreted his words differently.  The more the story evolves, it clearly sounds like harassment to me.  

[longview]

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

Clearly we interpreted his words differently.  The more the story evolves, it clearly sounds like harassment to me.  

I don't think the story was evolving.  Its just that you had a beam in your eye and used wrong judgment and got bit by your bias.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I seem to be getting plenty of heat over this.  ...

And in this case, rightly so.

[Kenngo1969]

There is, in my opinion, a certain strain of thought among some (and I'm not prepared to say how prevalent it is, that it is common, or that it predominates: I'm simply saying that it exists) that since certain groups, historically, have been disadvantaged, discriminated against, and so on, the members of such groups should be given the benefit of the doubt to such an unreasonable degree that activities that any reasonable observer would label, clearly, as harassment, discrimination, persecution, and so on if they were engaged in against members of the group, conversely, ought not be labeled as harassment, discrimination, persecution, and so on (or at least that the standard of proof for harassment, discrimination, persecution, and so on, should be higher), when engaged in by members of the historically oppressed group.

Yes, it certainly is possible even for members of a group that, historically, have been victims of racism to be racists; for members of a group that, historically, have been victims of harassment and assault to engage in harassment and assault; and so on; and the standard of proof employed when members of the group victimize others should be no different than the standard of proof that is employed when members of the group are victimized.  What's good for the goose really is good for the gander, and I don't think anyone should be doubted, second-guessed, persecuted, and so on, for daring to say so.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, longview said:

I don't think the story was evolving.  Its just that you had a beam in your eye and used wrong judgment and got bit by your bias.

That is not fair.  Please don't malign me.  Apparently misinterpretations never happen with other people. I had/have no beam.  I had no bad feelings towards Bernard.  I honestly thought he was portraying an uncomfortable incident, I didn't think he himself interpreted it as "sexual harassment" or saw it that way - it was another post who said that. It turns out I honestly misinterpreted the events.  Later descriptions made it more clear to me that it was harassment.  What I originally saw in my mind could in no way be enough to charge someone with sexual harassment.  It could be interpreted too many different ways.  

I saw two very different descriptions of 1) him leaning in "until" he touched his back (no pressing or leaning against him)- just looking over his back,  vs 2) him "pressing" his body against Bernard's body, pinning him against the desk.  Again, based on his initial description of how lightly he was touching him, without pressing himself against him or leaning against him, I thought the being pinned part was facetious.  I don't think that is too hard to see why I might have interpret things  that way.  Perhaps I am just a dunce.   It is clear now that he meant it literally.  Honest miscommunication.  I have admitted as much.  Please back off now.  No need to keep attacking me.    I have already conceded.  I have backed away from my initial interpretation.   This is getting out of control.  What do I need to say to get you guys to back off?  At what point does it become harassment?  It was an honest misunderstanding.  Sheesh.  

21 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

And in this case, rightly so.

Keep pilling on people! 

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is not fair.  Please don't malign me.  Apparently misinterpretations never happen with other people. I had/have no beam.  I had no bad feelings towards Bernard.  I honestly thought he was portraying an uncomfortable incident, I didn't think he himself interpreted it as "sexual harassment" or saw it that way - it was another post who said that. It turns out I honestly misinterpreted the events.  Later descriptions made it more clear to me that it was harassment.  What I originally saw in my mind could in no way be enough to charge someone with sexual harassment.  It could be interpreted too many different ways.  

I saw two very different descriptions of 1) him leaning in "until" he touched his back (no pressing or leaning against him)- just looking over his back,  vs 2) him "pressing" his body against Bernard's body, pinning him against the desk.  Again, based on his initial description of how lightly he was touching him, without pressing himself against him or leaning against him, I thought the being pinned part was facetious.  I don't think that is too hard to see why I might have interpret things  that way.  Perhaps I am just a dunce.   It is clear now that he meant it literally.  Honest miscommunication.  I have admitted as much.  Please back off now.  No need to keep attacking me.    I have already conceded.  I have backed away from my initial interpretation.   This is getting out of control.  What do I need to say to get you guys to back off?  At what point does it become harassment?  It was an honest misunderstanding.  Sheesh.  

Keep pilling on people! 

You're alright Pogi, I saw it less so with his first description but still felt it wrong like some dude trying to intimidate the new roommate or something. Which is abusive as well. I've had women treat me badly in my lifetime, be it work or school or play. So I totally had empathy for Bernard. 

But I'm sure many appreciate you're apology and we all hopefully can get past ours/others mistaken interpretations.