Missionaries and Chastity

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I seem to be getting plenty of heat over this. 

 

56 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

And in this case, rightly so.

 

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

... Keep pilling on people! 

I simply expressed agreement with a sentiment with which ... I happen to agree.  (I tend to do that from time to time.)  If that is "piling on," so be it.  (And the sentiment with which I expressed agreement, by the way, is yours.)

Edited August 17, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

 

I simply expressed agreement with a sentiment with which ... I happen to agree.  (I tend to do that from time to time.)  If that is "piling on," so be it.  (And the sentiment with which I expressed agreement, by the way, is yours.)

I never said I was "rightly' receiving heat over this.  That is your judgment upon me.  I especially don't think I deserve to be maligned after conceding.   I look at this as a simple misinterpretation of language/events.  Such things happen and are benign when the person concedes with further clarification. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I seem to be getting plenty of heat over this.  Two people can read the same description of events and perceive it in vastly different ways.  It wasn't clear to me what happened at all.  I had a VASTLY different image of events in my mind from your first and second description to how you later described the incident - which I envisioned more like WWE on our desk.  I am a very visual person.  That is what came to mind.  I don't take accusations of sexual harassment lightly.   Your first two reports gave one image in my mind of events that I would not have judged as sexual harassment (not even you called it that) - I doubt anyone here would either if they could see what I see based on how I interpreted his words.  I accept there are multiple ways to perceive things.  Now that I know he wasn't being facetious, it sounds like his later description is the more accurate one.  I can accept that. 

I was simply trying to explain why I interpreted it the way I did.  I could totally understand how people could read that different ways.   No need to jump on me people.  It was an honest misinterpretation of events. 

Unfortunate thumb typo. I think you know that I would never insinuate that you were girly or refer to other females as "girly".

Happy as a clam 

Yep.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

That is not fair.  Please don't malign me.  Apparently misinterpretations never happen with other people. I had/have no beam.  I had no bad feelings towards Bernard.  I honestly thought he was portraying an uncomfortable incident, I didn't think he himself interpreted it as "sexual harassment" or saw it that way - it was another post who said that. It turns out I honestly misinterpreted the events.  Later descriptions made it more clear to me that it was harassment.  What I originally saw in my mind could in no way be enough to charge someone with sexual harassment.  It could be interpreted too many different ways.  

I saw two very different descriptions of 1) him leaning in "until" he touched his back (no pressing or leaning against him)- just looking over his back,  vs 2) him "pressing" his body against Bernard's body, pinning him against the desk.  Again, based on his initial description of how lightly he was touching him, without pressing himself against him or leaning against him, I thought the being pinned part was facetious.  I don't think that is too hard to see why I might have interpret things  that way.  Perhaps I am just a dunce.   It is clear now that he meant it literally.  Honest miscommunication.  I have admitted as much.  Please back off now.  No need to keep attacking me.    I have already conceded.  I have backed away from my initial interpretation.   This is getting out of control.  What do I need to say to get you guys to back off?  At what point does it become harassment?  It was an honest misunderstanding.  Sheesh.  

Keep pilling on people! 

Perhaps this is where you went off the rails…note the sequence…seems very clear to me.

Quote

I would be [0] sitting at my desk doing homework and he would come and [1] look over my shoulder. [2] He would continue to lean in until he touched my back. [3] I would move away, [4] but eventually my chest and head were pinned on the desktop. [5] I would then stand up and walk away. This happened [6] several times. I did not get violent and I did not report him. I just wanted to be left alone.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps this is where you went off the rails…note the sequence…

 

I'm sorry that happened to you. Very creepy and inappropriate. Sounds like you handled it well. 

[pogi]

15 hours ago, Raingirl said:

It’s frustrating and concerning that some don’t understand this.

 I think it is safe to say that most people get that.  Again, I didn't read it that way at first. 

Quote

Unwanted physical contact is never okay. That’s not flirting. 

What is perceived as appropriate physical touch/contact is entirely a social and personal construct with endless variance in personal boundaries.  It can be heavily influenced by culture, by personal history and experience with others, etc.  We all have different boundaries of social touch.  This is why this issue is not as clear cut as it may seem for some.  For example, I was very uncomfortable in the Philippines when my Filipino companions would hold my hand or walk with their arm around my shoulders.  It is something that close friends do.  You see it everywhere.   At first I would feel very uncomfortable and awkward and after a few seconds I would pull my hand away and put my hands in my pockets.  My companion would later try to hold my hand again.  Same thing - back in my pockets.  This happened multiple times.  Should that be considered sexual harassment because it was unwanted touch?  I also gave several non-verbal cues that I didn't like it. 

I don't think he really understood what I was trying to non-verbally communicate to him.  In his mind, he was showing kindness and regard for me as a close friend.  It didn't cross his mind that it might make me uncomfortable - because that is just what everyone does over there.  He probably just thought I felt like putting my hands in my pocket - the end.  After it happened enough, I confessed to him that it made me uncomfortable as it is not something we do in our culture.  He apologized and never tried to hold my hand again.   After this happening with several companions, and becoming more accustomed to the culture, I eventually dropped my culturally reserved physical tendencies and held my future companions hands and walked with my arm around their shoulders.   It became very endearing to me over time as I adapted to their culture.

It turns out that touch is my love language.  I had no idea what I was missing my whole life.  I still feel a huge hole from that kind of friendly contact since my mission. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by pogi

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Clearly we interpreted his words differently. 

It appears that you and I must have been composing our responses this morning at about the same time. I agree that we interpreted his words differently and, as a result, made different initial judgements as well.

However, when presented with more information you shifted your judgement accordingly, and I don't see how anyone can expect anything more from you than that. It's not like you can go back in time and read it differently than you did that first time.

And I really don't think there's any need to continue arguing about our differing initial interpretations when we all seem to be on the same page at this point.

Cheers!

 

[blackstrap]

21 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And I really don't think there's any need to continue arguing about our differing initial interpretations when we all seem to be on the same page at this point.

 

22 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And I really don't think there's any need to continue arguing about our differing initial interpretations when we all seem to be on the same page at this point

 

22 minutes ago, Amulek said:

nd I really don't think there's any need to continue arguing about our differing initial interpretations when we all seem to be on the same page at this point.

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 I think it is safe to say that most people get that.  Again, I didn't read it that way at first. 

What is perceived as appropriate physical touch/contact is entirely a social and personal construct with endless variance in personal boundaries.  It can be heavily influenced by culture, by personal history and experience with others, etc.  We all have different boundaries of social touch.  I was very uncomfortable in the Philippines when my Filipino companions would hold my hand or walk with their arm around my shoulders.  It is something that close friends do.  You see it everywhere.   At first I would feel very uncomfortable and awkward and after a few seconds I would pull my hand away and put my hands in my pockets.  My companion would later try to hold my hand again.  Same thing - back in my pockets.  This happened multiple times.  Should that be considered sexual harassment because it was unwanted touch?  I also gave several non-verbal cues that I didn't like it. 

I don't think he really understood what I was trying to non-verbally communicate to him.  In his mind, he was showing kindness and regard for me as a close friend.  It didn't cross his mind that it might make me uncomfortable - because that is just what everyone does over there.  He probably just thought I felt like putting my hands in my pocket - the end.  After it happened enough, I confessed to him that it made me uncomfortable as it is not something we do in our culture.  He apologized and never tried to hold my hand again.   After this happening with several companions, and becoming more accustomed to the culture, I eventually dropped my culturally reserved physical tendencies and held my future companions hands and walked with my arm around their shoulders.   It became very endearing to me over time as I adapted to their culture.

It turns out that touch is my love language.  I had no idea what I was missing my whole life.  I still feel a huge hole from that kind of friendly contact since my mission. 

This explains alot!!