Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?"

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And it looks like a free country to me. To each his own I suppose.

 

Indeed. We just disagree. 

[Ragerunner]

Should we be concerned?

YES

[Risingtide]

Should we be concerned? Yes within reason. This movement has affected evangelicals primarily. I don't believe it will spread very widely among the Saints. Some within our faith are influenced and attracted by this movement, but I expect it will be limited because it is at odds with what the brethren and so many Church leaders believe and teach. 

As a conservative I find the movement quite distressing and disappointing.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Risingtide

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

If your pre-lunch grace looks like the photo above, it might be. 

Not an answer.

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not an answer.

I thought it was a pretty good answer. If it's a private prayer, it's fine. If it's a school employee leading students in prayer, it probably crosses a line. IMO, anyway.

[Rain]

23 hours ago, pogi said:

Thats right.  So don't pretend like you know what you are talking about when you said that he was "too over the top" etc.  

Not to your face anyway.  Some feel more safe take their masks off online in anonymity.  I personally have met a few members that hateful and antisemitic in real life. Holocaust deniers, etc. Extreme Jew haters. Christian nationalist.  Racist. This wasn't a made up persona.  He is just a small window into a growing portion of your party that one would be wise to make themselves aware of. 

 

I was surprised, by some of the things said on Facebook by some of the women in my ward the last few years.  I actually had a hard time going to church for awhile because I would see them and now what they were saying when they weren't in church.  It wasn't as bad as this poster, but some of it got close.  I have heard some of those kind of things from a man in our ward. I dealt with him much better because he has always been open about how he feels and I'm not afraid to speak back to him.  Still isn't as bad as this poster and I'm finding through our association that he has started to change his mind on some things.  But I have see things like this a lot and do feel they are honest feelings often.

But I'm with Scott this time around.  I have no idea what was different, but this time it felt like a troll.  I didn't say anything because I couldn't put my finger on it so I wasn't 100% sure.  And like Hamba I find it's just more effective to report it because whether or not he was real or a troll there would be no reasoning with him and nothing I could say that would change anything for him.  

Edited August 10, 2022 by Rain

[pogi]

5 hours ago, Risingtide said:

Should we be concerned? Yes within reason. This movement has affected evangelicals primarily. I don't believe it will spread very widely among the Saints. Some within our faith are influenced and attracted by this movement, but I expect it will be limited because it is at odds with what the brethren and so many Church leaders believe and teach. 

As a conservative I find the movement quite distressing and disappointing.

Thank you for the disappointment and distress. 

I could see this movement growing within a fairly large segment of LDS, actually.  I don't think it will dominate our faith, but there could be a fairly large sub-group.  We have seen it with many anti-vaxer member's vitriol for President Nelsons comments.  I could see the same thing happening with Christian nationalism.   With the "promised land" doctrine (a privileged land by God for the righteous), the dark skin as a curse passages, along with Christ practically being considered a founding father could easily become fertile soil for this group to grow from within our church.  With Trumpism/nationalism making a lasting mark on the republican party, Christian nationalism is a natural and fitting subgroup of that movement.  They are all Trump loyalists, and he supports them back, campaigns for them, and advocates for their cause.   Trump's nationalistic republicanism is still VERY popular among Latter-day Saints (despite multiple prophets warnings against nationalism), and Trumps republicanism is VERY welcoming of Christian nationalism as a part of the movement.  I think there is very good reason to be concerned about more radial politics like Christian nationalism becoming normalized and even popularized through Trumpism.

Some members may fall away completely as politics increasingly take the place of religion in America, and others may remain active and hold up the prophetic fallibility card when the prophets preach about nationalism, immigration, racism, or recommend vaccines etc. so, I think there is fertile soil and room for growth within our ranks.

Edited August 9, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I was surprised, but some of the things said on Facebook by some of the women in my ward the last few years.  I actually had a hard time going to church for awhile because I would see them and now what they were saying when they weren't in church.  It wasn't as bad as this poster, but some of it got close.  I have heard some of those kind of things from a man in our ward. I dealt with him much better because he has always been open about how he feels and I'm not afraid to speak back to him.  Still isn't as bad as this poster and I'm finding through our association that he has started to change his mind on some things.  But I have see things like this a lot and do feel they are honest feelings often.

But I'm with Scott this time around.  I have no idea what was different, but this time it felt like a troll.  I didn't say anything because I couldn't put my finger on it so I wasn't 100% sure.  And like Hamba I find it's just more effective to report it because whether or not he was real or a troll there would be no reasoning with him and nothing I could say that would change anything for him.  

I too agree with Scott that he was a troll looking to stir things up.  That became apparent fairly quickly.  I reported him (something I never do) because troll or not, even joking about this stuff is out-of-line.  That to me goes beyond benign trolling and validates my suspicion that this guy is a creep - troll or not.  I have no reason to believe that he didn't believe these things (like some of your Facebook friends), but I suspect he took it up several notches for maximum trolling effect in a perverse and twisted way.

I like messing with trolls.  It can be entertaining.  But at a certain point, when it becomes apparent that this guy was slightly unhinged (because even joking about ending another's life is sick), I stopped engagement. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I thought it was a pretty good answer. If it's a private prayer, it's fine. If it's a school employee leading students in prayer, it probably crosses a line. IMO, anyway.

Thanks for a real answer. School employees are not allowed to lead students in prayer.

Quote

C. Teachers, Administrators, and Other School Employees

When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the State, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the First Amendment from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students. Teachers, however, may take part in religious activities where the overall context makes clear that they are not participating in their official capacities. Teachers also may take part in religious activities such as prayer even during their workday at a time when it is permissible to engage in other private conduct such as making a personal telephone call. Before school or during lunch, for example, teachers may meet with other teachers for prayer or Bible study to the same extent that they may engage in other conversation or nonreligious activities. Similarly, teachers may participate in their personal capacities in privately sponsored baccalaureate ceremonies or similar events. https://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html?exp=0

So, if I’m saying Grace over my food and a student joins me and does the same, is it unconstitutional? If the students sees me can he object?

[Peacefully]

17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No need to violate board rules. I just report trolls to the moderators. They do the rest.

But until the moderators handle it, we can stand for what is right. 
 

I thought more about this and maybe that is dangerous advice. At the point where he seemed unhinged, it was probably better to stop engaging and let the moderators handle it. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Peacefully

[Peacefully]

Deleted

Edited August 9, 2022 by Peacefully

[Risingtide]

22 hours ago, pogi said:

Thank you for the disappointment and distress. 

I could see this movement growing within a fairly large segment of LDS, actually.  I don't think it will dominate our faith, but there could be a fairly large sub-group.  We have seen it with many anti-vaxer member's vitriol for President Nelsons comments.  I could see the same thing happening with Christian nationalism.   With the "promised land" doctrine (a privileged land by God for the righteous), the dark skin as a curse passages, along with Christ practically being considered a founding father could easily become fertile soil for this group to grow from within our church.  With Trumpism/nationalism making a lasting mark on the republican party, Christian nationalism is a natural and fitting subgroup of that movement.  They are all Trump loyalists, and he supports them back, campaigns for them, and advocates for their cause.   Trump's nationalistic republicanism is still VERY popular among Latter-day Saints (despite multiple prophets warnings against nationalism), and Trumps republicanism is VERY welcoming of Christian nationalism as a part of the movement.  I think there is very good reason to be concerned about more radial politics like Christian nationalism becoming normalized and even popularized through Trumpism.

Some members may fall away completely as politics increasingly take the place of religion in America, and others may remain active and hold up the prophetic fallibility card when the prophets preach about nationalism, immigration, racism, or recommend vaccines etc. so, I think there is fertile soil and room for growth within our ranks.

You may be right about the inroads CN potential to affect many Latter Day Saints. I hope you're wrong, but I've been shocked and surprised by many cultural developments in the past. 

[Rivers]

I’m more worried about secular nationalism at this point.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Rivers said:

I’m more worried about secular nationalism at this point.

I don't know any secular nationalists. Can you point out who they are?

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Rivers said:

I’m more worried about secular nationalism at this point.

I'm not a secularist but found this article and I'm not worried about them, unless you're saying that they get people to doubt their faith. https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2022/may-june/michael-bird-secularism-religious-freedom-government.html

What do you wish Christians—and secularists—knew about secularism?

I wish Christians knew that secularism is not a bad thing. It’s actually a good thing. Secularism is what stops a country from becoming a theocracy, where the government politicizes religion and religion becomes culturally shallow. Secularism is what protects you from government attempts to regulate, define, or interfere with your religion.

I wish secularists knew that secularism is a very broad term. There are different types of secularism that exist in France, Thailand, Japan, or Australia. And it doesn’t mean deliberately marginalizing people or communities of faith. Secularism is about creating space for people of all faiths and none.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Tacenda

[ttribe]

9 minutes ago, Rivers said:

I’m more worried about secular nationalism at this point.

[ttribe]

14 minutes ago, Rivers said:

I’m more worried about secular nationalism at this point.

Do you realize that our government is secular by Constitutional mandate?

[Rivers]

 

14 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Do you realize that our government is secular by Constitutional mandate?

There’s no state church but we’re still a “nation under God.”  Wokism is becoming our God.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Rivers

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Rivers said:

 

There’s no state church but we’re still a “nation under God.”  Wokism is becoming our God.

Yes, we've been one nation under God since 1954.

[ttribe]

26 minutes ago, Rivers said:

 

There’s no state church but we’re still a “nation under God.”  Wokism is becoming our God.

That was a phrase added in the 50s in response to the scare of "Godless Communism." The government is still secular by Constitutional mandate.

[jkwilliams]

24 minutes ago, ttribe said:

That was a phrase added in the 50s in response to the scare of "Godless Communism." 

I think that trumps the Constitution. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by jkwilliams

[Rivers]

14 hours ago, ttribe said:

That was a phrase added in the 50s in response to the scare of "Godless Communism." 

And rightly so.  I would rather have Christian nationalism than Godless Communism.  
 

The thing is, I just don’t see Christian nationalism as a legit concern.  I see us going towards the opposite extreme.
 

 

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Rivers said:

And rightly so.  I would rather have Christian nationalism than Godless Communism.  
 

The thing is, I just don’t see Christian nationalism as a legit concern.  I see us going towards the opposite extreme.
 

 

My concern is that they (speaking about a subset of Americans tending towards extremism) will head both ways at once, each version reacting in greater and greater extremes as their mirror counterpart confirms their fears while ignoring the rest that would reassure them.  Maybe they will cancel each other out (here’s hoping) or maybe they will pull the country apart with their fears and hates of the other…(or maybe it will lead to more piles of manure dropping and mounting up around the country).

Edited August 12, 2022 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 hours ago, ttribe said:

Do you realize that our government is secular by Constitutional mandate?

Like most people, I'm a huge fan of the authentic secular state, wherein the government is strictly neutral regarding religion and irreligion, defending and protecting all religious beliefs and practices and the lack thereof equally, 'without fear or favour'.

Having lived under a strictly secular military dictatorship, and having been raised by a father who lived under communism, I can state with some authority that secular governments are not necessarily protective of all beliefs, nor are they guaranteed not to favour or even impose the often religious-like ideology of the ruling elite.

I suspect it's the latter that Rivers is worried about in his nation. And as Latter-day Saints, we have long been cautioned to watch out for such developments. Earlier in this thread, I quoted Elder Maxwell's prophetic warning on this topic from 1978, and I suspect his words (which of course will mean little to you) might usefully be repeated:

Quote

We shall see in our time a maximum if indirect effort made to establish irreligion as the state religion. It is actually a new form of paganism that uses the carefully preserved and cultivated freedoms of Western civilization to shrink freedom even as it rejects the value essence of our rich Judeo-Christian heritage ...

Brothers and sisters, irreligion as the state religion would be the worst of all combinations. Its orthodoxy would be insistent and its inquisitors inevitable. Its paid ministry would be numerous beyond belief. Its Caesars would be insufferably condescending ...

This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain of people’s opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will soon be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.

In its mildest form, irreligion will merely be condescending toward those who hold to traditional Judeo-Christian values. In its more harsh forms, as is always the case with those whose dogmatism is blinding, the secular church will do what it can to reduce the influence of those who still worry over standards such as those in the Ten Commandments. It is always such an easy step from dogmatism to unfair play—especially so when the dogmatists believe themselves to be dealing with primitive people who do not know what is best for them. It is the secular bureaucrat’s burden, you see ...

When the secular church goes after its heretics, where are the sanctuaries? To what landfalls and Plymouth Rocks can future pilgrims go?

As one who lives in a secular (and increasingly secularising) nation devoid of any form of religious nationalism, and based on my personal history, I am sensitive to what Elder Maxwell predicted. Should we be concerned, for example, if it is possible for a resident of a secular state to be arrested for posting on social media an opinion at odds with the state's favoured ideology? In such a case, is it troubling if one can avoid arrest by agreeing instead to attend a re-education course at his own expense?

Edited August 12, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Rivers said:

And rightly so.  I would rather have Christian nationalism than Godless Communism.  
 

The thing is, I just don’t see Christian nationalism as a legit concern.  I see us going towards the opposite extreme.
 

 

Secularism, isn't Godless. I don't know where you're getting that. I'd rather have people that are good and kind and not the kind that use a God (all kinds) to do evil. History tells me lots of things. The evil done in the name of religion, no thanks. https://www.horizons-mag.ch/2018/12/06/secular-doesnt-mean-godless/