Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?"

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Even the defenders of the church argue that tithing is not really for helping people out but rather,  to run the church functions.

Here is how one church leader speaks on the issue:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1981/02/concerning-tithing?lang=eng
 

Quote

Tithing is not a freewill offering; it is a debt, the payment of which brings great blessings.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Even the defenders of the church argue that tithing is not really for helping people out but rather,  to run the church functions

Which, in a broader sense, IS helping people. 
 

I get what you’re saying, that tithing differs in purpose and function from, say, fast offering or humanitarian services. But if one believes, as I do, that the Church’s very reason for existence is to help people, then it logically follows that a donation to fund the administrative functions of the Church is tantamount to helping people. 
 

Think of some of the things tithing pays for: construction of meetinghouses and temples, missionary work, educational institutions, facilitating family history research (for all people, not just Church members), maintenance and operation of Church facilities, wages and salaries for Church employees, facilitating the ministry of leaders, publication in print and online of scriptures and an immense array of curriculum materials. All of these, in some sense, amount to helping people. 
 

So while I as a defender would agree that tithing differs from other offerings in its objectives, I would disagree that tithing and donations thereto do not help people. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Um, that is my point.  We overlap on social issues.  A lot, in fact.  We can and do work together in advancing commonly-held views and objectives on those social issues.

Really you simply prove my point.  Yes you can work on social issues and your theological enemies are happy to have your time and money and then toss you aside afterwards.

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

You seem to be suggesting I am conflating agreement on social issues in society at large during the week with doctrinal issues on Sunday.  I'm not.  

No I am not doing this.  I think you are making a presumption here.  I agree there are common social issues that you can work on with those of other faiths.  But if you or other Latter day Saints think these groups accept you as brothers and sisters in Christ or as a valid expression of faith, for many you would be mistaken.  If you are ok with that more power to you.  

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Sorry, not really buying that.  The Latter-day Saints comprise what, less than 2% of America?  Kinda hard to characterize us as one of these "powerful religious groups."  

I was not referring the just Latter day Saints.  However, I think you underestimate the power of the Church.  While the population as a % of the US is low it has outsized influence due to many factors.  Wealth is certainty one.  The education and influence of its members is another.

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

The secular left seems uniformly hostile to religious people.

How so?  Do you have a few examples?

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Well, no.

Well yes.

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Alas, your anecdotal experience is not supported by the data.There is a very large gap in charitable efforts, in both money and time, between religious and secular folks.

I accept that it is anecdotal.  But as John noted most the charity in time and $$ by religious people is limited to their faith community.  Yes Latter day Saints do step out of that from time to time and yes some of that is charitable.  Much of it is not though IMO.

 

But yes I am not going to argue that people of faith seem to be more charitable and likely my desire to continue to be so has roots in my experience as a member of the church,

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

Politics make strange bedfellows.

Yep.

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think that for most devout religious people in America, religious belief is "upstream" from politics.  Faith in and devotion to God trumps devotion to a political ideology or party or candidate.  I think this is why, in the end. Romney did as good or better than GWB and McCain amongst evangelical voters.  They don't need exacting compliance with this or that doctrine because political considerations are downstream from fundamental religious/moral considerations.  

FOr the right witn religious and political people I totally disagree.  My experience is their politics trump their faith.  Just look at the rantings from those within the LDS Faith when it comes to politics and the covid issues.  President Nelson is a fine man but he should shut up about vaccines and medical issues.  That seemed to be prevalent among right wing Latter day Saints.

 

Just spend some time here:

https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/

 

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Conversely, I think politics and political ideologies have become a sort of secular religion.  We all want to be a part of something important.  And when God and the eternal scheme of things are excluded as options, sociopolitical ideologies become the next best thing.  

Thanks,

-Smac

 

 

[jkwilliams]

22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So while I as a defender would agree that tithing differs from other offering in its objectives, I would disagree that tithing and donations thereto does not help people. 

I would certainly not say that tithing does not help people, despite the accusation that I did say that. 

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Which, in a broader sense, IS helping people. 

Likewise, giving outsized tips to the bartender is helping people, too.

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Think of some of the things tithing pays for: construction of meetinghouses and temples, missionary work, educational institutions, facilitating family history research (for all people, not just Church members), maintenance and operation of Church facilities, wages and salaries for Church employees, facilitating the ministry of leaders, publication in print and online of scriptures and an immense array of curriculum materials. All of these, in some sense, amount to helping people. 

It reminds me of what Jon Huntsman Sr. said:

“My philanthropy is not borne out of my faith. They require 10 percent tithing. I don’t consider that to be philanthropy and I don’t consider it to be part of my philanthropic giving. I consider it as club dues. People who put money in the church basket and people who go to church and pay the pastor: that isn’t real philanthropy, that’s just like you belong to a country club.”

Huntsman Sr. says he doesn't count tithing as philanthropy | KSL.com

[jkwilliams]

9 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Likewise, giving outsized tips to the bartender is helping people, too.

It reminds me of what Jon Huntsman Sr. said:

“My philanthropy is not borne out of my faith. They require 10 percent tithing. I don’t consider that to be philanthropy and I don’t consider it to be part of my philanthropic giving. I consider it as club dues. People who put money in the church basket and people who go to church and pay the pastor: that isn’t real philanthropy, that’s just like you belong to a country club.”

Huntsman Sr. says he doesn't count tithing as philanthropy | KSL.com

Who knew Jon Huntsman disparaged tithing the same way I do? 🤣

[Scott Lloyd]

54 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Likewise, giving outsized tips to the bartender is helping people, too.

It reminds me of what Jon Huntsman Sr. said:

“My philanthropy is not borne out of my faith. They require 10 percent tithing. I don’t consider that to be philanthropy and I don’t consider it to be part of my philanthropic giving. I consider it as club dues. People who put money in the church basket and people who go to church and pay the pastor: that isn’t real philanthropy, that’s just like you belong to a country club.”

Huntsman Sr. says he doesn't count tithing as philanthropy | KSL.com

Well, if Huntsman Sr. said it, it must be true, I guess. 
 

Or perhaps a person can have more than one motive for paying tithing. 
 

And has anybody here denied, even implicitly, that giving generous tips helps people? Your remark has me scratching my head. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Well, if Huntsman Sr. said it, it must be true, I guess. 
 

Or perhaps a person can have more than one motive for paying tithing. 

Or people can have an honest opinion about different types of charitable donation. 

[Scott Lloyd]

46 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Who knew Jon Huntsman disparaged tithing the same way I do? 🤣

Are you disparaging tithe paying? I thought you denied that you were. 

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, smac97 said:

If donating to a church is an "apple" that is "completely different" from donating "to, say, help orphants or the homeless" (the "orange"), then what is the distinction?  

Well for Latter day Saint tithing is a commandment.  Mandatory for exaltation.  THus there is a strong element of compelling someone to make the donation.  That seems less charitable than a simple choice to donate to a cause or not.  By the way I bet if you looked at donations of the average active member there would be very little charitable contributions outside the ones made to the church.  Other religious people may give more to other causes but I don't know of many that emphasize tithing like our church does.  Thus they have more discretionary $ to give to other causes.

 

[Tacenda]

 

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-founding-fathers-religious-wisdom/#:~:text=Many of the founding fathers,practiced a faith called Deism.

"The First Amendment says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . .” and in Article VI, Section III, “… no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

"Many of the founding fathers—Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Monroe—practiced a faith called Deism. Deism is a philosophical belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems. Deists believe in a supreme being who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws—and after creation, is absent from the world. This belief in reason over dogma helped guide the founders toward a system of government that respected faiths like Christianity, while purposely isolating both from encroaching on one another so as not to dilute the overall purpose and objectives of either."

 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Or people can have an honest opinion about different types of charitable donation. 

Yes. And?

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-founding-fathers-religious-wisdom/#:~:text=Many of the founding fathers,practiced a faith called Deism.

"The First Amendment says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . .” and in Article VI, Section III, “… no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

"Many of the founding fathers—Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Monroe—practiced a faith called Deism. Deism is a philosophical belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems. Deists believe in a supreme being who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws—and after creation, is absent from the world. This belief in reason over dogma helped guide the founders toward a system of government that respected faiths like Christianity, while purposely isolating both from encroaching on one another so as not to dilute the overall purpose and objectives of either."

 

 

Rep point! 

[smac97]

12 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well for Latter day Saint tithing is a commandment. Mandatory for exaltation. 

And yet Latter-day Saints regularly fail to keep the commandments.  And descriptors like "mandatory" overlook the entirely voluntary nature of the thing. 

Unlike, say, taxes to the State, the payment of tithing is a matter of conscience, not compulsion.

12 hours ago, Teancum said:

Thus there is a strong element of compelling someone to make the donation.

Plenty of people feel obligated ("compelled") to donate to charity.  It's the decent thing to do.

jkwilliams previouslhy took exception to me construing his remarks as disparaging contributions to religious groups.  I apparently misunderstood him (and for that I apologize to him).

You, however, seem to be implying this rather strongly.  Latter-day Saints donating to their church are not really being charitable (or their contributions are inherently inferior to others's contributions) because "tihing is a commandment."  It's "mandatory."  "{T}here is a strong element of compelling."

12 hours ago, Teancum said:

That seems less charitable than a simple choice to donate to a cause or not. 

Well, you blew right past implication.  It's right there.  Latter-day Saints donating to their Church are "less charitable."

Bummer.

12 hours ago, Teancum said:

By the way I bet if you looked at donations of the average active member there would be very little charitable contributions outside the ones made to the church.  Other religious people may give more to other causes but I don't know of many that emphasize tithing like our church does.  Thus they have more discretionary $ to give to other causes.

Kind of odd, then, that you disparage as "less charitable" the Latter-day Saints who, having donated 10% (plus fast offerings, plus substantial amounts of time in callings, etc.) for having less "discretionary $" to give to other causes."

The Latter-day Saints are among the most generous people on earth.  And yet our critics still find a way to shift the goalposts and find fault.

Consider, for example: Penn Research Shows That Mormons Are Generous and Active in Helping Others

Quote

When it comes to being generous with time and money, Americans who are not Mormons can learn from Americans who are.

A new study from researchers at the University of Pennsylvania and Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis explores Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints culture and explains LDS members’ volunteering and charitable giving-habits.

It is the first study focusing on giving and volunteering practices of Latter-day Saints that has been carried out within LDS wards by a non-church-affiliated university.

The researchers are Ram Cnaan, a professor in Penn’s School of Social Policy & Practice; Daniel W. Curtis, a student earning his Ph.D. in social welfare; and Van Evans from IUPUI.

“Called to Serve: The Prosocial Behavior of Active Latter-day Saints” is the largest and most detailed study of its kind.  Researchers surveyed 2,644 active Mormons in Southeastern Pennsylvania and New Jersey, Michigan, Utah and California.

Overall, researchers found that members of the LDS Church are the most “prosocial” members of American society. 

“Regardless of where they live, they are very generous with their time and money,” Cnaan, an expert in faith-based social services and the lead researcher, said. “Through a theology of obedience and sacrifice and a strong commitment to tithing and service, Latter-day Saints are model citizens.”

"Members of the LDS Church are the most 'prosocial' members of American society" and are "model citizens."

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

Quote

One of the Mormons’ basic beliefs is that they are called by God to serve others.    Thus, practicing members of the LDS Church act under the belief that they are called to give time and expertise to church, society and humanity, the study says.

Researchers found that active members of the LDS Church volunteer and donate significantly more than the average American.  When it comes to the time they spend volunteering, the average adult American LDS member contributes as much as seven times more than that of the average American.

An average American Latter-day Saint provides almost 430 hours of volunteer labor annually.  This equates to approximately 35 hours per month.   In comparison, the average American volunteer provides about four hours of volunteering per month. 

"{T}he average adult American LDS member contributes as much as seven times more than that of the average American."

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

Quote

The researchers divided their volunteering-related findings into four groups: volunteering for religious purposes within the church, church-affiliated volunteering to meet the social needs of members, church-affiliated volunteering to meet the social needs of people in the community regardless of LDS membership, and volunteering outside the church to assist people in the community.

The most common volunteer activity of Latter-day Saints is within the ward, or local territorial division, and for religious purposes, which accounts for 57 percent of their volunteer time.  Nearly 95 percent of the respondents report performing 242 hours of religious volunteering annually.
...
LDS members also volunteer to perform social responsibilities within the ward, which amounts to 22 percent of the Latter-day Saints volunteer time.  This includes activities such as leading a church-affiliated Boy Scout troop, making meals for another member of the ward or helping a fellow member move into a new home.  Nearly 94 percent of the respondents reported volunteering this way.

The least frequent volunteer activity is social volunteering outside of the church, equating to almost 8 percent of the Latter-day Saints’ volunteer time.  Nearly 62 percent of the respondents indicated that they volunteer outside of the church.  On average, an active Latter-day Saint provides 34 hours of social care outside the ward that is geared toward the community.

"{T}he average American volunteer provides about four hours of volunteering per month."

"Nearly 62 percent of the respondents indicated that they volunteer outside of the church.  On average, an active Latter-day Saint provides 34 hours of social care outside the ward that is geared toward the community."

And yet Teancum declares: "I bet if you looked at donations of the average active member there would be very little charitable contributions outside the ones made to the church."

Quote

Mormons outside of Utah spent more time providing social care within their wards than those living in Utah, the study found.  Latter-day Saints in the Pennsylvania and New Jersey areas volunteered more hours than Latter-day Saints in Utah. 

While LDS members volunteered fewer hours to causes independent of the church, even if this were the only volunteer activity of Latter-day Saints, it would equal the national average of volunteering of all Americans, according to the study which cites previous research conducted by the Corporation for National and Community Service.

The researchers determined that, through volunteering, an active Mormon provides a social contribution equivalent to $9,140 annually.  If young, full-time missionaries are excluded, their social contribution still equates to $7,102 per year.

"While LDS members volunteered fewer hours to causes independent of the church, even if this were the only volunteer activity of Latter-day Saints, it would equal the national average of volunteering of all Americans."

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

Quote

All the regions studied reported similar levels of overall volunteering.  The study notes that this suggests that the expectations for the amount of time spent volunteering is the same for all LDS members, but the distribution of those hours depends on the needs in the local area.

In terms of the LDS members’ financial contribution to not only the church but also to other charitable causes, they outshine non-Mormon Americans yet again.

“There is probably no other religious group in which tithing is taken so seriously as in the LDS Church,” Cnaan said. “In America, it’s rarely practiced.”
...
The study unveils that 88 percent of LDS respondents reported donating 10 percent of their income to the church.  Adding to those who reported fully tithing, another 6 percent said that they partially tithe. 

But, the study found, members of the LDS Church also donate to other causes.  Through the church, on average, a Latter-day Saint donates $650 a year to social causes and another $1,171 a year outside the church.
...
Taken together, an average Latter-day Saint pays full tithing and donates $1,821 to social and community causes.

Per this website: "The average annual charity donation for Americans in 2020 was $737."

"In terms of the LDS members’ financial contribution to not only the church but also to other charitable causes, they outshine non-Mormon Americans yet again."

"{M}embers of the LDS Church also donate to other causes.  Through the church, on average, a Latter-day Saint donates $650 a year to social causes and another $1,171 a year outside the church."

"Taken together, an average Latter-day Saint pays full tithing and donates $1,821 to social and community causes" (compared to the 2020 average contribution of $737).

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

Heads we lose, tails we lose.  No matter what we do, no matter how hard we work, our critics will just move the goalposts and say "not enough."

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 5, 2022 by smac97

[SeekingUnderstanding]

27 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And yet Latter-day Saints regularly fail to keep the commandments.  And descriptors like "mandatory" overlook the entirely voluntary nature of the thing. 

Well it’s called “the law of tithing”. President Romney described it as a “legal obligation” and a “debt”. A debt that should be paid first:

 

Quote

From this scripture it is apparent that tithing is a debt which everyone owes to the Lord as rent for using the things that the Lord has made and given to him to use. The Lord, to whom one owes tithing, is in a position of a preferred creditor. If there is not enough to pay all creditors, he should be paid first. You may be a little shocked by this statement, but it is true.

So it’s as mandatory as paying any debt that you owe (consider it your top priority debt). Do you typically describe your mortgage as voluntary or mandatory spending in your monthly budget?

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well, if Huntsman Sr. said it, it must be true, I guess. 

I'd merely suggest that the amount of tithing he has paid buys him the right to not be dismissed as yet another anti-Mormon.

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Or perhaps a person can have more than one motive for paying tithing. 

I think the comparison Huntsman Sr. alluded to is insightful. If you looked at all aspects of paying tithing (e.g. motives for paying, how much good it does the world, who it benefits, etc.), is paying tithing more like donating to a philanthropic charity, or more like paying country club dues?

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And has anybody here denied, even implicitly, that giving generous tips helps people? Your remark has me scratching my head. 

My point is that "helping people" is an awfully low bar the way you are using it, and probably isn't what @Teancum was alluding to when he suggested that donating money to "helping people out" and donating it to the Church are different things.

 

[smac97]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Really you simply prove my point.  Yes you can work on social issues and your theological enemies are happy to have your time and money and then toss you aside afterwards.

Again, I don't know what you mean by "toss you aside afterwards."  We aren't looking for some sort of ecumenical union with our Catholic and Protestant cousins.  Everyone wants to retain our theological distinctions and claims.  So "toss you aside" doesn't compute for me.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

You seem to be suggesting I am conflating agreement on social issues in society at large during the week with doctrinal issues on Sunday.  I'm not.  

No I am not doing this.  I think you are making a presumption here.  I agree there are common social issues that you can work on with those of other faiths.  But if you or other Latter day Saints think these groups accept you as brothers and sisters in Christ or as a valid expression of faith, for many you would be mistaken.  If you are ok with that more power to you.  

Yes, i think I understood you in the first instance.  

Again, we are not looking to resolve doctrinal/theological differences.  We are not seeking their ratification and approval of our beliefs.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Quote

Quote

In contrast, I find the secular left (an increasingly redundant label) to be far more contemptuous and inimical toward religious people broadly, Christians more emphatically, and the Latter-day Saints in particular.

Because the secular (left or right-there are secular people on the right) are tired of their historic marginalization be powerful religious groups. Even now it is tough to be a public political figure and and proclaimed atheist.

Sorry, not really buying that.  The Latter-day Saints comprise what, less than 2% of America?  Kinda hard to characterize us as one of these "powerful religious groups."  

I was not referring the just Latter day Saints. 

But I was:

• I said: "I find the secular left (an increasingly redundant label) to be far more contemptuous and inimical toward religious people broadly, Christians more emphatically, and the Latter-day Saints in particular."
• You responded: "Because the secular (left or right-there are secular people on the right) are tired of their historic marginalization be powerful religious groups."
• I responded: "The Latter-day Saints comprise what, less than 2% of America?  Kinda hard to characterize us as one of these 'powerful religious groups.'"

The Latter-day Saints have never held sufficient numerical/political clout to "marginalize" the "secular left," and yet I see just as much contempt and derision (if not more so) directed at us than at whatever "powerful religious groups" you are referencing above.  So again, I can't go along with your payback-for-marginalization explanation.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

However, I think you underestimate the power of the Church.  While the population as a % of the US is low it has outsized influence due to many factors.  Wealth is certainty one.  The education and influence of its members is another.

So the Church has used its "wealth" and "education and influence of its members" to "marginalize" the secular left?

How?  When?  Evidence?

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

The secular left seems uniformly hostile to religious people.

How so?  Do you have a few examples?

I overspoke.  I retract the foregoing.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Alas, your anecdotal experience is not supported by the data.There is a very large gap in charitable efforts, in both money and time, between religious and secular folks.

I accept that it is anecdotal.  But as John noted most the charity in time and $$ by religious people is limited to their faith community. 

Not as to the Latter-day Saints, according to the study I cited here.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

But yes I am not going to argue that people of faith seem to be more charitable and likely my desire to continue to be so has roots in my experience as a member of the church,

Okay.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

I think that for most devout religious people in America, religious belief is "upstream" from politics.  Faith in and devotion to God trumps devotion to a political ideology or party or candidate.  I think this is why, in the end. Romney did as good or better than GWB and McCain amongst evangelical voters.  They don't need exacting compliance with this or that doctrine because political considerations are downstream from fundamental religious/moral considerations.  

For the right witn religious and political people I totally disagree. 

Okay.  I'd like to see evidence and reasoning for this.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

My experience is their politics trump their faith. 

That is not my experience.  My experience is that faith is "upstream" from politics.  That political preferences tend to be derived from, and made to conform as much as possible with, their faith.

I don't recall ever consulting the Republican Party Platform, or any political candidate or source, when examining my sentiments about, say, belief in God, our relationship with Him, substance abuse, sexual mores, abortion, the role of government, Free Exercise, Free Speech, renouncing war and proclaiming peace, and so on.  When I have encountered a conflict (or at least some tension) between prevailing "conservative" sentiments and the teachings and position of the Church, I give the latter considerably more deference and consideration.

There are obviously exceptions to this.  I think many Latter-day Saints are departing, in various measures, from the teachings of the Church relative to same-sex marriage, immigration policy, and a vew other "hot button" topics.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Just look at the rantings from those within the LDS Faith when it comes to politics and the covid issues.  President Nelson is a fine man but he should shut up about vaccines and medical issues.  That seemed to be prevalent among right wing Latter day Saints.

Just spend some time here: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/

I question the representative quality of that website.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Quote

And yet Latter-day Saints regularly fail to keep the commandments.  And descriptors like "mandatory" overlook the entirely voluntary nature of the thing. 

Well it’s called “the law of tithing”.

Along with "the law of chastity," "the law of obedience," and so on.

And yet Latter-day Saints regularly fail to keep these "laws." 

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So it’s as mandatory as paying any debt that you owe (consider it your top priority debt).

The Law of Chastity is likewise "mandatory."  And yet our payment of tithing, keeping the Word of Wisdom, obeying the Law of Chastity, are all matters of conscience, not compulstion.

6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Do you typically describe your mortgage as voluntary or mandatory spending in your monthly budget?

What an absurd and unserious comparison.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Which, in a broader sense, IS helping people. 

Perhaps in some sense yes.  I guess it depends on how one defines charity and charitable contributions.

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

 

I get what you’re saying, that tithing differs in purpose and function from, say, fast offering or humanitarian services. But if one believes, as I do, that the Church’s very reason for existence is to help people, then it logically follows that a donation to fund the administrative functions of the Church is tantamount to helping people. 
 

Think of some of the things tithing pays for: construction of meetinghouses and temples, missionary work, educational institutions, facilitating family history research (for all people, not just Church members), maintenance and operation of Church facilities, wages and salaries for Church employees, facilitating the ministry of leaders, publication in print and online of scriptures and an immense array of curriculum materials. All of these, in some sense, amount to helping people. 
 

So while I as a defender would agree that tithing differs from other offerings in its objectives, I would disagree that tithing and donations thereto do not help people. 

THere are lots of ways to help people.  Again I think it boils down to the definition of charity.  Here is one:

generosity and helpfulness

 

1a : generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering also : aid given to those in need received charity from the neighbors. b : an institution engaged in relief of the poor raised funds for several charities. c : public provision for the relief of the needy too proud to accept charity.

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/charity

 

 

[Rain]

 

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well for Latter day Saint tithing is a commandment.  Mandatory for exaltation.  THus there is a strong element of compelling someone to make the donation.  That seems less charitable than a simple choice to donate to a cause or not.  By the way I bet if you looked at donations of the average active member there would be very little charitable contributions outside the ones made to the church. 

Having seen first hand what many people give both in and out of our church I'm not sure that is true. I think there are a LOT of members who don't give outside of church, but I have see that as well with people who are not members.  What I see is that we have less discretionary money to give, but that as a whole we give about the same as others.

Service has been interesting to me watching our church and others.  I find that our members are better helping individuals than other churches as a whole.  I have been told "I can't believe how your church has helped us.  My church hasn't. "

And we do some great group projects.  The thing other churches do better is how personal they are with the group projects.  They are right there with the people who are lost.  We are usually more in the background.

Some of that is because the church tries hard to support charities that are already there, but some of it seems to be that we are uncomfortable being in the midst of it.  

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Other religious people may give more to other causes but I don't know of many that emphasize tithing like our church does.  Thus they have more discretionary $ to give to other causes.

 

This is what I have seen walking alongside of other churches and charity work.  Some really only partner with us because we give, but others whole heartedly partner with us.  Those in the latter category are more likely to be hispanic churches, but then they are the ones throwing open their doors for everyone.

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

And yet Latter-day Saints regularly fail to keep the commandments.  And descriptors like "mandatory" overlook the entirely voluntary nature of the thing. 

Ultimately everything  is voluntary is it not?  Yet the church teaches fairly heavily that tithing is essential and you cannot get to the ordinances needed for the highest heaven without paying it.  Sorry but that really taints it.  It is a pay to play type scenario. I think the John Huntsman comment provided above is failry accurate.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Unlike, say, taxes to the State, the payment of tithing is a matter of conscience, not compulstion.

If you don't want exaltation that is.  And you can not pay taxes.  You just may go to jail or have other penalties.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Plenty of people feel obligated ("compelled") to donate to charity.  It's the decent thing to do.

Do they?  For exaltation?  For access to the most important ordinances their religion offers?

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

jkwilliams previouslhy took exception to me construing his remarks as disparaging contributions to religious groups.  I apparently misunderstood him (and for that I apologize to him).

You, however, seem to be implying this rather strongly.  Latter-day Saints donating to their church are not really being charitable (or their contributions are inherently inferior to others's contributions) because "tihing is a commandment."  It's "mandatory."  "{T}here is a strong element of compelling."

Well, you blew right past implication.  It's right there.  Latter-day Saints donating to their Church are "less charitable."

Oh please.  Her we go again.  But I will play that game.  Giving 10% to a church that is pretty strongly telling you to do so leaves less for other charitable causes.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Bummer.

Kind of odd, then, that you disparage as "less charitable" the Latter-day Saints who, having donated 10% (plus fast offerings, plus substantial amounts of time in callings, etc.) for having less "discretionary $" to give to other causes."

The Latter-day Saints are among the most generous people on earth.  And yet our critics still find a way to shift the goalposts and find fault.

Consider, for example: Penn Research Shows That Mormons Are Generous and Active in Helping Others

"Members of the LDS Church are the most 'prosocial' members of American society" and are "model citizens."

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

"{T}he average adult American LDS member contributes as much as seven times more than that of the average American."

Which includes tithing.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

"{T}he average American volunteer provides about four hours of volunteering per month."

"Nearly 62 percent of the respondents indicated that they volunteer outside of the church.  On average, an active Latter-day Saint provides 34 hours of social care outside the ward that is geared toward the community."

I am highly skeptical that Latter day Saints give 34 hours of time for charity outside their ward on a monthly basis. Honestly is that your experience.  Do you do that?

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

And yet Teancum declares: "I bet if you looked at donations of the average active member there would be very little charitable contributions outside the ones made to the church."

I still believe that to be accurate.  I did not give all that much outside the church when an active member. My titing, fast offering and other offerings were tens of thousands of $ per year. I felt like I was doing pretty good with that. I gave some outside of the church but it was nominal.  Plus I felt like my thousands of hours of time and other out of pocket costs were part of my charitable giving as well so it did not leave much else to give.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

"While LDS members volunteered fewer hours to causes independent of the church, even if this were the only volunteer activity of Latter-day Saints, it would equal the national average of volunteering of all Americans."

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

Sigh.....

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Per this website: "The average annual charity donation for Americans in 2020 was $737."

"In terms of the LDS members’ financial contribution to not only the church but also to other charitable causes, they outshine non-Mormon Americans yet again."

"{M}embers of the LDS Church also donate to other causes.  Through the church, on average, a Latter-day Saint donates $650 a year to social causes and another $1,171 a year outside the church."

"Taken together, an average Latter-day Saint pays full tithing and donates $1,821 to social and community causes" (compared to the 2020 average contribution of $737).

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

Heads we lose, tails we lose.  No matter what we do, no matter how hard we work, our critics will just move the goalposts and say "not enough."

Thanks,

-Smac

It is such a cruel world for Latter day Saints.  🙄

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I am highly skeptical that Latter day Saints give 34 hours of time for charity outside their ward on a monthly basis. Honestly is that your experience.  Do you do that?

Yeah, that sounds a little excessive. I used to volunteer at a nursing home and then later as a translator for a free health clinic, but I never put in 34 hours in a month outside of church activities. I wonder if by “outside their wards” they mean outside Sunday church meetings. Even then, I’m not sure I quite believe this. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

33 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Yeah, that sounds a little excessive. I used to volunteer at a nursing home and then later as a translator for a free health clinic, but I never put in 34 hours in a month outside of church activities. I wonder if by “outside their wards” they mean outside Sunday church meetings. Even then, I’m not sure I quite believe this. 

My wife is the Vice President of the Music Boosters at my kids' high school.  During marching band season, she's putting in twice that in a month.  The president of the Boosters is a member of the stake, as is the secretary.  All of them put in tons of hours throughout the year. 

In addition to those three ladies, I can think of dozens of others in my stake who volunteer at least that amount of time in youth theater programs (our community has two of them), and youth sports leagues (one of our SP counselors is a regional director of a youth soccer league, and probably spends as much time in that role as he does in his church calling).

It's not very hard for me to imagine 34 hours of community service a month.  That's less than 8 hours a week!

 

ETA: To say nothing of the partnership our stake has with the local food bank, which has told stake leadership that they would not be able to operate without the volunteer hours donated by members of the stake.  And for every example I know personally, there are likely 10 others I don't even know about. 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Stormin' Mormon

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Stormin' Mormon said:

My wife is the Vice President of the Music Boosters at my kids' high school.  During marching band season, she's putting in twice that in a month.  The president of the Boosters is a member of the stake, as is the secretary.  All of them put in tons of hours throughout the year. 

In addition to those three ladies, I can think of dozens of others in my stake who volunteer at least that amount of time in youth theater programs (our community has two of them), and youth sports leagues (one of our SP counselors is a regional director of a youth soccer league, and probably spends as much time in that role as he does in his church calling).

It's not very hard for me to imaging 34 hours of community service a month.  That's less than 8 hours a week!

 

For the average member? I used to coach youth soccer, but I didn’t consider it charity work. Maybe that’s the kind of thing they’re talking about. 

[smac97]

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ultimately everything  is voluntary is it not? 

No.  Some things are not voluntary in any meaningful sense of the word.

And not everything that is voluntary is of equal measure.

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yet the church teaches fairly heavily that tithing is essential and you cannot get to the ordinances needed for the highest heaven without paying it.  Sorry but that really taints it.  It is a pay to play type scenario. I think the John Huntsman comment provided above is failry accurate.

So charitable donation (defined as "a gift of cash or property made to a nonprofit organization to help it accomplish its goals, for which the donor receives nothing of value in return") is not a charitable donation if the donor thinks it will help him after he dies.  That makes the donation "tainted."

This just doesn't work.  Second-guessing by mindreading and imputing improper motives does not convert a charitable donation into something else.

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Unlike, say, taxes to the State, the payment of tithing is a matter of conscience, not compulstion.

If you don't want exaltation that is. 

That is my point.  Paying tithing is a matter of conscience, not compulsion.

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

And you can not pay taxes.  You just may go to jail or have other penalties.

Again, that is my point.  The Church does not, and cannot, in any meaningful or reasonable sense, "compel" anyone to pay tithing.

In contrast, the government can compel you to pay taxes.

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Plenty of people feel obligated ("compelled") to donate to charity.  It's the decent thing to do.

Do they?  For exaltation?  For access to the most important ordinances their religion offers?

Special pleading.

Yes, plenty of people feel obligated to donate to charity.  That sense of obligation does not equate to "compulsion."

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Well, you blew right past implication.  It's right there.  Latter-day Saints donating to their Church are "less charitable."

Oh please.  Her we go again.  But I will play that game.  Giving 10% to a church that is pretty strongly telling you to do so leaves less for other charitable causes.

Obviously.

But that's not what you said.  

And what you said was also factually correct.  Per the articles I cited, Latter-day Saints are more charitable than Americans on average, by a substantial measure, both as to money and time donated.

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

 

Consider, for example: Penn Research Shows That Mormons Are Generous and Active in Helping Others

"Members of the LDS Church are the most 'prosocial' members of American society" and are "model citizens."

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

"{T}he average adult American LDS member contributes as much as seven times more than that of the average American."

 

Which includes tithing.

I get it.  You disparage tithing.  It doesn't count.  It's "less."  Because the Latter-day Saints are in your crosshairs.

Meanwhile, I suspect you don't go around second-guessing and disparaging others who donate to charitable causes they deem worthwhile.

The whiff of a double standard is coming off pretty strongly.

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

 

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

"{T}he average American volunteer provides about four hours of volunteering per month."

"Nearly 62 percent of the respondents indicated that they volunteer outside of the church.  On average, an active Latter-day Saint provides 34 hours of social care outside the ward that is geared toward the community."

 

I am highly skeptical that Latter day Saints give 34 hours of time for charity outside their ward on a monthly basis. Honestly is that your experience.  Do you do that?

No.  

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

And yet Teancum declares: "I bet if you looked at donations of the average active member there would be very little charitable contributions outside the ones made to the church."

I still believe that to be accurate. 

Antipathy trumps data, then.

Got it.

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

I did not give all that much outside the church when an active member. My titing, fast offering and other offerings were tens of thousands of $ per year. I felt like I was doing pretty good with that. I gave some outside of the church but it was nominal.  Plus I felt like my thousands of hours of time and other out of pocket costs were part of my charitable giving as well so it did not leave much else to give.

A reasonable point.  You were giving a lot to charitable causes.  But I suspect you didn't have an antagonistic gainsayer disparaging your efforts by claiming they didn't count, that they were "taint{ed}," that they were "less" because the Church was involved.

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

Quote

 

"While LDS members volunteered fewer hours to causes independent of the church, even if this were the only volunteer activity of Latter-day Saints, it would equal the national average of volunteering of all Americans."

And yet Latter-day Saints are "less charitable."

 

Sigh.....

I was thinking the same thing.  Our critics are never going to be satisfied.  They will always be able to find fault.  To move the goalposts.

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

It is such a cruel world for Latter day Saints.  🙄

Antipathy and ridicule trump data.

Got it.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 5, 2022 by smac97