Media Portrayals

[jkwilliams]

Obviously we’ve been talking a lot about the Krakauer miniseries, but last night I was watching a series in which a CTR ring made an unexpected appearance as a major plot point. I’m curious where the character will go with her Mormon background. But this got me thinking about how church members are portrayed in mainstream media. 

Most often, church members are portrayed as slightly over-pious and more than a little naive. Often this is played for laughs, making Mormons the punchline. See, for example, Frasier, South Park/Book of Mormon musical, and House, MD. 

Other portrayals have Mormons as hypocrites hiding a dark, sometimes sinister, secret. See, for example, Quantico and Big Love. 

Of course, it’s rare to see a Mormon character in any but the tiniest walk-on, again often for humorous intent (Breaking Bad, for example).

I was thinking this is most likely a result of church members not being a particularly visible segment of society. A lot of people around the world think they know what they need to know (polygamy, missionaries) but seldom dig any deeper. 

To me, it’s a sign that we (I consider myself an ethnic Mormon) still have not fully come out from obscurity. We live in many respects in the margins of modern culture. 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Obviously we’ve been talking a lot about the Krakauer miniseries, but last night I was watching a series in which a CTR ring made an unexpected appearance as a major plot point. I’m curious where the character will go with her Mormon background. But this got me thinking about how church members are portrayed in mainstream media. 

Most often, church members are portrayed as slightly over-pious and more than a little naive. Often this is played for laughs, making Mormons the punchline. See, for example, Frasier, South Park/Book of Mormon musical, and House, MD. 

Other portrayals have Mormons as hypocrites hiding a dark, sometimes sinister, secret. See, for example, Quantico and Big Love. 

Of course, it’s rare to see a Mormon character in any but the tiniest walk-on, again often for humorous intent (Breaking Bad, for example).

I was thinking this is most likely a result of church members not being a particularly visible segment of society. A lot of people around the world think they know what they need to know (polygamy, missionaries) but seldom dig any deeper. 

To me, it’s a sign that we (I consider myself an ethnic Mormon) still have not fully come out from obscurity. We live in many respects in the margins of modern culture. 

It could be that we are still in the margins of modern culture.  But I think the phenomenon that we see with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints in television and movies really has more to do with Hollywood's views of religion in general, than in our culture's views of mormonism specifically.

When members are used as a plot device, it seems it usually goes somewhat similar to how any religion is used when introduced as a plot device.  The character is a caricature of that religion's beliefs which exists solely to move the story forward in either a funny, odd, or sinister way. 

Because if you want a regular person with regular mainstream tendencies whose beliefs don't exist as a vehicle for a plot point, Hollywood just leaves religion out of the story completely.  Religion is a storytelling tool in Hollywood.  So if the story doesn't need "naivety" or "sinister" or "weird" or "laughable", religion (of any denomination) isn't usually portrayed at all.

 

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Obviously we’ve been talking a lot about the Krakauer miniseries, but last night I was watching a series in which a CTR ring made an unexpected appearance as a major plot point. I’m curious where the character will go with her Mormon background. But this got me thinking about how church members are portrayed in mainstream media. 

Most often, church members are portrayed as slightly over-pious and more than a little naive. Often this is played for laughs, making Mormons the punchline. See, for example, Frasier, South Park/Book of Mormon musical, and House, MD. 

Other portrayals have Mormons as hypocrites hiding a dark, sometimes sinister, secret. See, for example, Quantico and Big Love. 

Of course, it’s rare to see a Mormon character in any but the tiniest walk-on, again often for humorous intent (Breaking Bad, for example).

I was thinking this is most likely a result of church members not being a particularly visible segment of society. A lot of people around the world think they know what they need to know (polygamy, missionaries) but seldom dig any deeper. 

To me, it’s a sign that we (I consider myself an ethnic Mormon) still have not fully come out from obscurity. We live in many respects in the margins of modern culture. 

There is The Expanse, which is a nod to our history which is depicted as repeating in the future.  Also Hell on Wheels - which is just messed up. 

We are definitely stuck in obscurity, which is not surprising given our tiny fraction of the population.  Most people know about our eccentric historical leaders and history of polygamy and colonizing the West to some degree, but not much more.  Most people know very little about our beliefs and our culture.  While we live in the margins of American culture, we are about as American as any religion and culture can get.  

I'm ok with being obscure. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

It could be that we are still in the margins of modern culture.  But I think the phenomenon that we see with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints in television and movies really has more to do with Hollywood's views of religion in general, than in our culture's views of mormonism specifically.

When members are used as a plot device, it seems it usually goes somewhat similar to how any religion is used when introduced as a plot device.  The character is a caricature of that religion's beliefs which exists solely to move the story forward in either a funny, odd, or sinister way. 

Because if you want a regular person with regular mainstream tendencies whose beliefs don't exist as a vehicle for a plot point, Hollywood just leaves religion out of the story completely.  Religion is a storytelling tool in Hollywood.  So if the story doesn't need "naivety" or "sinister" or "weird" or "laughable", religion (of any denomination) isn't usually portrayed at all.

 

I don’t know. Many programs and films have had, say,  Catholicism or Judaism as major parts of the storyline without using them as a caricature. 

[Fether]

36 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Obviously we’ve been talking a lot about the Krakauer miniseries, but last night I was watching a series in which a CTR ring made an unexpected appearance as a major plot point. I’m curious where the character will go with her Mormon background. But this got me thinking about how church members are portrayed in mainstream media. 

Most often, church members are portrayed as slightly over-pious and more than a little naive. Often this is played for laughs, making Mormons the punchline. See, for example, Frasier, South Park/Book of Mormon musical, and House, MD. 

Other portrayals have Mormons as hypocrites hiding a dark, sometimes sinister, secret. See, for example, Quantico and Big Love. 

Of course, it’s rare to see a Mormon character in any but the tiniest walk-on, again often for humorous intent (Breaking Bad, for example).

I was thinking this is most likely a result of church members not being a particularly visible segment of society. A lot of people around the world think they know what they need to know (polygamy, missionaries) but seldom dig any deeper. 

To me, it’s a sign that we (I consider myself an ethnic Mormon) still have not fully come out from obscurity. We live in many respects in the margins of modern culture. 

My favorite Latter-day Saint portrayal in media is from Psych. BYU won competition to show up as a cameo on the show “psych”. All good right!? Well the cameo was a bunch of college kids walking into a bar wearing BYU shirts.

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

My favorite Latter-day Saint portrayal in media is from Psych. BYU won competition to show up as a cameo on the show “psych”. All good right!? Well the cameo was a bunch of college kids walking into a bar wearing BYU shirts.

I might have to watch that. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

There is The Expanse, which is a nod to our history which is depicted as repeating in the future.

I get a huge kick out of The Expanse, and I don't think there's anything negative in the portrayals of future space Mormons.  We commission the building of the Nauvoo, meant to be a generation ship to take an entire population to their new home.  And the thing gets stolen, then abandoned then salvaged, then turned into a warship. 

Folks in the Krakauer show discussion thread are all wondering how you can show relevant cultural elements without showing sacred temple content.  This.  This is how you do it:

 

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I might have to watch that. 

https://www.ksl.com/article/18526229/byu-students-scene-on-psych-misrepresented

[Okrahomer]

I liked the sensitive portrayal on the Newhart show:

Emily - Howard's brother called.
Bob - Warden Gordon Bordon?
Emily - No... his other brother.  Norman.
Bob - What does he do?
Emily - He's a doorman.  At the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City.
Bob - Don't tell me he's a Mormon.
Emily - That's right.  Norman Borden the Mormon Doorman.  (Laughs hysterically.)
Bob - How long did it take you to come up with that?
Emily - All day.  

Edited April 27, 2022 by Okrahomer
To provide the source

[Vanguard]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It could be that we are still in the margins of modern culture.  But I think the phenomenon that we see with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints in television and movies really has more to do with Hollywood's views of religion in general, than in our culture's views of mormonism specifically.

When members are used as a plot device, it seems it usually goes somewhat similar to how any religion is used when introduced as a plot device.  The character is a caricature of that religion's beliefs which exists solely to move the story forward in either a funny, odd, or sinister way. 

Because if you want a regular person with regular mainstream tendencies whose beliefs don't exist as a vehicle for a plot point, Hollywood just leaves religion out of the story completely.  Religion is a storytelling tool in Hollywood.  So if the story doesn't need "naivety" or "sinister" or "weird" or "laughable", religion (of any denomination) isn't usually portrayed at all.

 

Well said. There has to be something that 'grabs' us if we're to watch it. Other religions go through the same thing. The Jews also have been depicted in numerous ways with one of my favorites being Mel Brooks', History of the World bit on the Inquisition - 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Vanguard

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I get a huge kick out of The Expanse, and I don't think there's anything negative in the portrayals of future space Mormons.  We commission the building of the Nauvoo, meant to be a generation ship to take an entire population to their new home.  And the thing gets stolen, then abandoned then salvaged, then turned into a warship. 

Folks in the Krakauer show discussion thread are all wondering how you can show relevant cultural elements without showing sacred temple content.  This.  This is how you do it:

In the retrofit, did they leave the murals up or not?  Or did they not show that room again?

As to the Banner, at least part of the discussion involves a specific part of the former temple ceremony.  That is different than showing general culture.  And I am trying to think of a comparable situation limiting to what was shown in The Expanse…maybe show an open house or volunteering to clean the temple?  Did they use volunteers back in the 80’s?  I don’t remember.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Calm

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don’t know. Many programs and films have had, say,  Catholicism or Judaism as major parts of the storyline without using them as a caricature. 

I'm sure they do exist.  I just don't think they are the norm.  In my experience (which is not at all complete), most of the time the show/movie is either caricature of them or an 'expose' type of show (like the netflix drama "Unorthodox"). 

The persecuted Jew.  The oppressed Jewish woman.  The oppressive/misogynistic Jewish man.  I do think the Jewish narrative in films has gotten better over time, as our culture as stopped accepting anti semitic portrayals in film and tv.  

We aren't there with Catholic stuff.  We still have a lot of those.  The uptight Catholic. The lapsed Catholic. The Catholic with 10 kids.  The pedophile Catholic priest.  The Catholic that either needs an exorcism or is performing one or some variation of the 'demon' motiff.  The Catholic church as an agent of evil/corruption in the greater world.  Etc.

I have seen one movie where a character's Catholic beliefs were used in a neutral but positive light that stood out to me.  It was "We were soldiers", which is based on a true story (and the main character was practicing catholic).  It also starred a practicing Catholic (Mel Gibson) and was directed by his friend (Randall Wallace) so that probably helped.

 

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I get a huge kick out of The Expanse, and I don't think there's anything negative in the portrayals of future space Mormons.  We commission the building of the Nauvoo, meant to be a generation ship to take an entire population to their new home.  And the thing gets stolen, then abandoned then salvaged, then turned into a warship. 

Folks in the Krakauer show discussion thread are all wondering how you can show relevant cultural elements without showing sacred temple content.  This.  This is how you do it:

 

There's also a portrayal of a missionary on the Expanse, in the first episode I think.  It made me laugh.

I agree it's not a negative portrayal.  It's more along the lines of "these guys are a bunch of harmless weirdos" bent.  

[Calm]

The most recent Father Brown series (BBC) constantly mocked and misrepresented Catholic doctrine and presented the majority of the clergy as hypocritical or even corrupt or focused on personal advancement.  Father Brown himself is approving of fornication, homosexual relationships, indifferent to adultery…a love is all one needs attitude, and approaches faith as some vague feel good support system, imo.  I find that a betrayal of the creator of the character and the stories themselves as the originals are extremely Catholic, imo, stories (constant references to redemption, for one thing), though I haven’t read many of the stories since I became more familiar with Catholicism, but Chesterton is famous for his apologetics though he wasn’t a Catholic himself in his early writing of the character (was High Anglican before conversion).

Edited April 27, 2022 by Calm

[strappinglad]

38 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

thing gets stolen, then abandoned then salvaged, then turned into a warship. 

The reverse of beating your swords into plowshears . 

[Stormin' Mormon]

I don't really have anything to add to this discussion (yet).  I just wanted to post this screen-cap of my favorite line in the entire Expanse series (be it the TV series or the book series, both of which I have consumed avidly). When my wife and I watched the TV show for the first time, we were waiting for this line with bated breath. 

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I get a huge kick out of The Expanse, and I don't think there's anything negative in the portrayals of future space Mormons.  We commission the building of the Nauvoo, meant to be a generation ship to take an entire population to their new home.  And the thing gets stolen, then abandoned then salvaged, then turned into a warship. 

I thought this was an interesting synopsis of the portrayal of Mormonism in the show:

Quote

What strikes me most about the series’ portrayal of the Latter-day Saints of the future is how similar it is to depictions in the present. In other words, the television series and the books it is based on are fascinating cultural products of our own day. Both seem to require Mormons to be unchanging exponents of a bygone era. And by the 24th century, the halcyon age the Mormon characters keep trying to emulate is — you guessed it — the 19th century of the Utah pioneers.

When the series opens, the Mormons of the future are building a colossal ship they call the L.D.S.S. Nauvoo, which they plan to take into the outer reaches of space as a colonist-hauler. Chafing under birth control restrictions on an overpopulated Earth, they are poised to embark on a massive exodus for their people, escaping not only the limitations of enforced family size but also the escalating tensions between Earth and Mars, Earth’s heavily militarized former colony.communication depends on us.

The state-of-the-art ship the Mormons create is strangely obsessed with the past, with agricultural murals gracing the walls of the bridge. They even outfit the Nauvoo with farm equipment and berths for livestock. The Mormon colonists have every hope of making the desert bloom in their eventual destination several generations hence, a distant outpost planet that may not even be habitable.

It’s a brilliant nod to Mormon history, or at least that history as retold in the popular imagination. In the 1840s, Mormons abandoned their homes in Nauvoo, Illinois, and headed west to practice their religion in a Zion of their own making. (In that case, the family-related collision with government regulations was not over mandatory birth control but the practice of plural marriage.)

On their way to Utah-pia, the Mormons were stopped by U.S. military agents recruiting men to fight in the Mexican War. The hundreds of Mormons who signed on as “volunteers” to the Mormon Battalion didn’t have much choice in the matter. The historical irony is that the Mormons, who were heading to Utah in order to flee the jurisdiction of the United States, wound up having to fight in the very war that made Utah a U.S. territory approximately five minutes after they arrived there.

“The Expanse” recapitulates that history, albeit almost entirely offstage. The plot point never goes anywhere because the Mormons never go anywhere (here is your spoiler alert). Their ship of dreams is commandeered during an intergalactic crisis and never given back to them. “The Mormons are gonna be pissed,” comments one character as the theft goes down. Another Mormon exodus, another case of getting caught in the middle of a war they didn’t ask for.

The Mormons aren’t just pissed; they are litigious. They want their ship back and appeal to the courts to get it, but their quest for justice comes to naught in the chaos of contested interplanetary jurisdiction. It’s a different century, and yet “your cause is just but I can do nothing for you” is still the primary message the Mormons receive when they seek compensation from the government.

If themes of 19th-century Mormon persecution are alive and well in this imagined world of the 24th century, the Mormons themselves seem stuck firmly in the 1950s. Every Latter-day Saint who gets screentime in “The Expanse” is white, which is particularly notable given the multiracial future depicted there. Earth, Mars, and “the Belt” — the violent no-man’s-land that is oppressed by both planets — have every race and ethnicity under the rainbow, and such diversity is simply unremarkable. Race and gender have ceased to be sources of division (believe me, there are plenty enough class struggles to make up for it — this is far from a utopian society). Women are taken in stride as ship captains and chief engineers and presidents of planets.

And in this mix are the Mormons, uniformly and predictably white. The few Mormons who have speaking parts are male, who stand out because of their full suits, crisp white shirts and neckties. We assume women exist (because birth control), but they are never heard. They appear in one micro-scene of a crowd shot, sporting modest skirts and French braids, but don’t blink or you will miss them. These Mormon women are not leaders. They do not interface with the public, and “the brethren” are still referred to as making decisions for the Mormon people.

It’s a shame that in this carefully imagined world of the future, Mormons are unchanging and flat. Some continuity is recognizable and comforting: They are still conducting missionary work, for example. One possible change — or is it a mistake on the part of the writers? — is that their “temple” now appears to be open to the public. Even Miller, the hard-nosed agnostic detective, gets into the temple. But otherwise, the Mormons have not been permitted to grow or evolve beyond a stereotyped, monochromatic nostalgia for their own distant past.

https://religionnews.com/2020/02/07/frozen-in-time-mormons-in-the-24th-century-as-seen-in-the-expanse/

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

My favorite Latter-day Saint portrayal in media is from Psych. BYU won competition to show up as a cameo on the show “psych”. All good right!? Well the cameo was a bunch of college kids walking into a bar wearing BYU shirts.

I'm partial to:

[LoudmouthMormon]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

In the retrofit, did they leave the murals up or not?  Or did they not show that room again?

Heh - that room became the command center.  We see the murals with a bunch of cables strewn across them, with a hastily spray painted logo of the belters across some of them. 

Quite cool.  Someone actually bothered to know enough about us, to give a decently realistic portrayal of space mormons and their ark/temple.

[JustAnAustralian]

I always think of Starship Troopers when I think of media portrayals 

https://starshiptroopers.fandom.com/wiki/Port_Joe_Smith

Edited April 28, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[cinepro]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:14 AM, jkwilliams said:

To me, it’s a sign that we (I consider myself an ethnic Mormon) still have not fully come out from obscurity. We live in many respects in the margins of modern culture. 

I was going to note that in 2022, no group has truly arrived until they are represented by a headlining superhero in their own film.

But then I remembered that Trey Parker and Matt Stone covered that for us in 1997.

[Saint Bonaventure]

I know of the Osmonds, Orrin Hatch, Steve Young, missionaries wear white shirts and bike helmets.....

On the down-low, though, a little piece of LDS culture that has crossed over for some Catholics is the Temple Choir. I've known several Catholics over the years who owned cassettes or CDs of the Temple Choir, and particularly of it singing Ave Maria. 

[why me]

I think that it was different in the past, in the later 20th century. It seems that there was much respect of LDS values and the LDS wholesome lifestyle. But since the value structure has changed in the opposite direction to what the LDS believe, the portrayal will be more negative. It comes with the turf. Dare to be different in moral values and then be prepared for the mocking.

[Meadowchik]

49 minutes ago, why me said:

I think that it was different in the past, in the later 20th century. It seems that there was much respect of LDS values and the LDS wholesome lifestyle. But since the value structure has changed in the opposite direction to what the LDS believe, the portrayal will be more negative. It comes with the turf. Dare to be different in moral values and then be prepared for the mocking.

The crisp, white-shirt-and-tie, clean-shaven image was indeed a 20th century change LDS adopted after discontinuing polygamy. It was a shift toward similar mainstream values as opposed to daring to be different.

[why me]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

The crisp, white-shirt-and-tie, clean-shaven image was indeed a 20th century change LDS adopted after discontinuing polygamy. It was a shift toward similar mainstream values as opposed to daring to be different.

I think that it was also what the church was teaching morally. It was rather mainstream. I am reminded of the TV shows like Hazel, Leave it to Beaver, I love Lucy, Father knows best. All of these shows and much more were very mormon. The lds were not out of sync with mainstream values. The lds had a wholesome image.

Edited May 1, 2022 by why me