Politics becoming our religion.

[Navidad]

On 2/23/2022 at 3:42 PM, Paloma said:

Then again, the USA still has populations that despise Catholics, Latter Day Saints, POC etc. 

Humanity has inevitably divided itself into groups (tribes, families, clans, all kinds of entities). There have always those who despise those who aren't of their tribe. It is not unique to the USA, religion, or race - but it does manifest itself with generalizing, normalizing, dehumanizing, and ranking - the four core elements that lead to all the various isms we talk about so much. I did mission work among the Borgawa who despised the Fulani, who despised the Yoruba and the Hausa! Despising is a sin as is generalizing, normalizing, dehumanizing, and ranking. In honor of my LDS friends here, I won't say it is a function of our sinful nature. I will simply say it is a function of our tendency to sin!

[SwedishLDS]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Yet another nephew is going for the QAnon conspiracies and posted this on Facebook. They're brothers though. I'm dumbstruck!

https://rumble.com/v10pjkc-dangercovid-19-virus-and-vaccines-bioweapon-is-created-from-royal-king-cobr.html?fbclid=IwAR3Q3gRyA9Yorv9lxqF-FoGBAQCegQ2mp0XH_z2OL-AVX6j_I9RGvQxoJgM

🛑☠️BREAKING NEWS☠️🛑
COVID-19 Virus & Vaccines Bioweapon is created from Royal King Cobra Snake Venom NOT Bats.

-Corona = Crown = Royal = King
-Most Satanic Evil Biblical Christianity Symbol = Reptilians Serpent = Adam and Eve and the Venomous Apple Bites from the serpent in the Garden of Eden.
-Most Evil Dangerous Venomous snake = Royal King Cobra
-Serpent Logo of Health services, ambulances, medical emergency, EMS, WHO World Health Organization
-Virus original definition = Venom
-Black Goo = Venom
-Corona Virus = King Cobra Venom
-Vaccines = Mark of the Beast = Getting bitten by venomous serpent.
-When getting bitten by venomous serpent = Respiratory illness, can't breath, loss of taste and smell, blood cloths, organs failure.
-What did George Floyd "Fake death" said = I Can't Breath. During a respiratory illness plandemic.
-Trump strange story in rallies of the venomous snake who bites and kills was giving us clues.
-What protects against venomous snakes bites = Zinc, hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, Quercetin, N.A.C, Vit. C, Copper, Nicotine, Bentonite Clay, Corticosteroids, Budesonide.
-COVID Venom can be injected and mixed in Municipal Water worldwide. (WATCH THE WATER).
-Transhumanism DNA Gene Editing with reptilian King Cobra.
-Humans are being mixed with reptilians on the surface of earth so they can live out of the inner earth.
-This is why they want less sun, more cold, afraid of global warming, they prefer reptilians environment ecosystem.
-The more vaccines and boosters they take, the more they will transform like the Crispr gene editing. Next generations will be mixed up with reptilians for those who are not dead from venom. Next gen. will be immunize to the venom.
-We are being ruled and controlled by a reptilian satanic cult/race who wants to poison us with venom so that we suffocate and can't breath.
-There's NO coincidence! It is all planned.

indeed its sad. The scriptures warns us that in the latter days even the very elect will be led away. Corona has shown people on the left and right do this.

that said, we do need to watch and pray and look for the signs of the time as we follow the prophet.

[Teancum]

On 2/22/2022 at 1:14 AM, Rivers said:

This thread will probably get closed since it contains  the word “politics.”  I notice that a lot of church members let their political views become their religion.  Or they view their religion through the lens of their political ideology.  I see it on both sides of the spectrum.  Lots of people do it.  I know I sometimes do it.  People on both sides quote Jesus to support their politics. 
 

But the gospel should be apolitical.  Christ said His kingdom is not of this world.  The gospel of Jesus Christ should transcend worldly politics.  
 

Is it possible to truly divorce our politics from our religion?

It is problematic.  We see it in conservative christianity and in other conservative religions like our church. I don't see it near as much in the liberal side. At least not in as noisy as a way.  For LDS I get the appeal of conservative issues but it has been strange for me to watch Latter day Saints so willingly support a man like the former president and double down on the pandemic issues and vaccines inspire of what church leaders encouraged. It showed me that even those who think they are the most faithful Latter day Saints have thing they will break with the LDS leaders on.  It is not just liberal LDS people that will break  away from leaders on political issues.

[Teancum]

On 2/23/2022 at 4:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

So yes, they are inseparable, and for those who have not had spiritual experiences, all that is left is politics. 

Hardly. Many humans find meaning in life beyond politics without "spiritual experiences."  Maybe you need to get out more.  Expand your circle beyond Latter day Saints a bit.

On 2/23/2022 at 4:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

 

People need to learn that following the "stil small voice"  IS the purpose of life and it's  meaning.

No it is not.  In fact it can be very unreliable as we have discussed ad nauseum.

 

On 2/23/2022 at 4:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

But most importantly, they need to know that for some there could be nothing more important than stopping global warming

Yes some actually are concerned about the well being of our planet and the ability to keep it in such a way to sustain human and other life. I know most millenial end  of the world religionists mostly don't care much about that cause Jesus is a coming.

 

On 2/23/2022 at 4:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

 

and for others there could be nothing more important than reaching the Celestial Kingdom, but all of them are based on a "HOPE FOR THINGS UNSEEN" and then by definition there can be no empirical answer to which is "right" because both sides are faith and value-based.

I agree a hope for the celestial kingdom is a hope for something  unseen.  Work on climate and other such issues are empirical based.  Big difference.

[mfbukowski]

53 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Hardly. Many humans find meaning in life beyond politics without "spiritual experiences."  Maybe you need to get out more.  Expand your circle beyond Latter day Saints a bit.

No it is not.  In fact it can be very unreliable as we have discussed ad nauseum.

 

Yes some actually are concerned about the well being of our planet and the ability to keep it in such a way to sustain human and other life. I know most millenial end  of the world religionists mostly don't care much about that cause Jesus is a coming.

 

I agree a hope for the celestial kingdom is a hope for something  unseen.  Work on climate and other such issues are empirical based.  Big difference.

Google empirical theology.

Read my siggy until you understand it. 

Google "positivism is dead"

After all these years you still have no idea of what my position is and how it is empirical. Please don't bother me until you have something to say.  Then please say it

But I do wish you well, I just don't want to waste more time repeating what we have repeated for years

https://www.religion-online.org/article/empirical-theology-a-revisable-tradition/

Edited April 15, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Google empirical theology.

Read my siggy until you understand it. 

Google "positivism is dead"

After all these years you still have no idea of what my position is and how it is empirical. Please don't bother me until you have something to say.  Then please say it

But I do wish you well, I just don't want to waste more time repeating what we have repeated for years

https://www.religion-online.org/article/empirical-theology-a-revisable-tradition/

Here is something I would like to quote from the site above which is one of the many devastating arguments against the use of  positivism in religion:

""1. Terms and Priorities

 

For empirical theology, as for most other theology, method is an outcome of content, not the other way around. Empirical theology begins with a particular speculative view of life, which in turn leads to the adoption of an empirical method. While empirical method contributes in turn to the continual justification, correction, and revision of the speculative content, that method is not the deepest source of empirical theology. An empirical theologian interprets the world and its God to be one thing rather than another; "empirical method" refers to how that interpretation is made plausible or revised.

 

To run it the other way, from method to content, would introduce a methodologism false to empirical theology. Such a procedure may be modem, in that it attends first to modernity’s primary concern with intellectual justification. But it leads to a consuming interest in procedures, which stanches the religious springs of theological inquiry.""

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Maybe you need to get out more.  Expand your circle beyond Latter day Saints a bit.

This gave me a great laugh, thanks I needed it

I started Catholic,became agnostic, then athiest, then card carrying Communist, then Zen Buddhist, played around with Zoroastrianism, hung out in Hindu ashrams, got into Mindfulness, all while working on my masters in philosophy in a secular universities, UCLA and CUNY, where I worked with major William James scholars.

I thought about Mormonism, but what good could come out of those hicks in UTAH? Gimme a break!

Of course I have told you this all many times over.

No thanks but I have been around the block quite enough.

I know pure gold when I see it.

This paradigm puts ALL of it into a coherent whole, if you only listen and see it as I do.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I started Catholic,became agnostic, then athiest, then card carrying Communist, then Zen Buddhist, played around with Zoroastrianism, hung out in Hindu ashrams, got into Mindfulness, all while working on my masters in philosophy in a secular universities, UCLA and CUNY, where I worked with major William James scholars.

Mate, you clearly need to get out more ... 

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Google empirical theology.

Read my siggy until you understand it. 

Google "positivism is dead"

After all these years you still have no idea of what my position is and how it is empirical. Please don't bother me until you have something to say.  Then please say it

But I do wish you well, I just don't want to waste more time repeating what we have repeated for years

https://www.religion-online.org/article/empirical-theology-a-revisable-tradition/

I am always open to learning but I at least at this point I reject your world view.  Just does not work for me and I think for most humans. It really comes across as a lot of moving the target and mumbo jumbo.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Teancum

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mate, you clearly need to get out more ... 

🤪

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I am always open to learning but I at least at this point I reject your world view.  Just does not work for me and I think for most humans. It really comes across as a lot of moving the target and mumbo jumbo.

I suppose your brain told you that,right? Totally subjective 

Where's your empirical evidence for your own position?

In your brain.  You really need to get out more.  You want to think like everyone else, right? 200 year old pap?

Mumbo jumbo?

I see cutting edge theology  capable of changing humanity, not repeating 300 year old Enlightenment views of science and religion.

You really need to get out more! 

🙄

Edited April 16, 2022 by mfbukowski

[carbon dioxide]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:14 PM, Rivers said:

But the gospel should be apolitical.  Christ said His kingdom is not of this world.  The gospel of Jesus Christ should transcend worldly politics. 

Is it possible to truly divorce our politics from our religion?

All politics are temporal and all the political issues of the day will pass.  Nobody cares about tax rates, immigration, wars, ect in the spirit world and beyond.  Even in our mortal world, issues come and go.  What is important today may not be that important 10 years from now.  Nothing wrong with being involved in politics but we need to keep perspective.  It is not as important as we often make it.

[Peacefully]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:13 PM, Tacenda said:

Yet another nephew is going for the QAnon conspiracies and posted this on Facebook. They're brothers though. I'm dumbstruck!

https://rumble.com/v10pjkc-dangercovid-19-virus-and-vaccines-bioweapon-is-created-from-royal-king-cobr.html?fbclid=IwAR3Q3gRyA9Yorv9lxqF-FoGBAQCegQ2mp0XH_z2OL-AVX6j_I9RGvQxoJgM

🛑☠️BREAKING NEWS☠️🛑
COVID-19 Virus & Vaccines Bioweapon is created from Royal King Cobra Snake Venom NOT Bats.

-Corona = Crown = Royal = King
-Most Satanic Evil Biblical Christianity Symbol = Reptilians Serpent = Adam and Eve and the Venomous Apple Bites from the serpent in the Garden of Eden.
-Most Evil Dangerous Venomous snake = Royal King Cobra
-Serpent Logo of Health services, ambulances, medical emergency, EMS, WHO World Health Organization
-Virus original definition = Venom
-Black Goo = Venom
-Corona Virus = King Cobra Venom
-Vaccines = Mark of the Beast = Getting bitten by venomous serpent.
-When getting bitten by venomous serpent = Respiratory illness, can't breath, loss of taste and smell, blood cloths, organs failure.
-What did George Floyd "Fake death" said = I Can't Breath. During a respiratory illness plandemic.
-Trump strange story in rallies of the venomous snake who bites and kills was giving us clues.
-What protects against venomous snakes bites = Zinc, hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, Quercetin, N.A.C, Vit. C, Copper, Nicotine, Bentonite Clay, Corticosteroids, Budesonide.
-COVID Venom can be injected and mixed in Municipal Water worldwide. (WATCH THE WATER).
-Transhumanism DNA Gene Editing with reptilian King Cobra.
-Humans are being mixed with reptilians on the surface of earth so they can live out of the inner earth.
-This is why they want less sun, more cold, afraid of global warming, they prefer reptilians environment ecosystem.
-The more vaccines and boosters they take, the more they will transform like the Crispr gene editing. Next generations will be mixed up with reptilians for those who are not dead from venom. Next gen. will be immunize to the venom.
-We are being ruled and controlled by a reptilian satanic cult/race who wants to poison us with venom so that we suffocate and can't breath.
-There's NO coincidence! It is all planned.

Wow, this is really out there. How do you react when they say this stuff? I have a nephew who is out there in other ways and we usually just kind of humor him. Not sure confronting him would help because he seems almost delusional. 

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I suppose your brain told you that,right?

That is all we have really.

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

Totally subjective 

Sure.

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Where's your empirical evidence for your own position?

Which position specifically?

 

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

In your brain. 

EVery thought and emotion is in our brian. YOurs as well.  Not outside our brain.  Not from some other unseen being as well.

 

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

You really need to get out more. 

As I have asked you before, how many member of the church operate and express their truth claims the way you think we should or the way you  think we gain such things.

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

You want to think like everyone else, right? 200 year old pap?

200 year old pap?

 

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Mumbo jumbo?

Sorry.that was rude.

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

 

I see cutting edge theology  capable of changing humanity, not repeating 300 year old Enlightenment views of science and religion.

Ok

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You really need to get out more! 

🙄

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

Wow, this is really out there. How do you react when they say this stuff? I have a nephew who is out there in other ways and we usually just kind of humor him. Not sure confronting him would help because he seems almost delusional. 

Wanted to comment, but held back. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

Wow, this is really out there. How do you react when they say this stuff? I have a nephew who is out there in other ways and we usually just kind of humor him. Not sure confronting him would help because he seems almost delusional. 

QAnon fills a need like all cults. Participants choose to abandon reason to have that need filled. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

QAnon fills a need like all cults. Participants choose to abandon reason to have that need filled. 

And unfortunately even if another figures out the need being filled, the other may have altered their thinking and feelings so much that only the cult can fill that need at that point.  For example, a need for security and belonging…if they have trained themselves to see these are filled by attention from other cult members, they may not be able to see they can get feel safe in or part of any other community.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Calm

[sunstoned]

On 4/17/2022 at 8:23 AM, Peacefully said:

Wow, this is really out there. How do you react when they say this stuff? I have a nephew who is out there in other ways and we usually just kind of humor him. Not sure confronting him would help because he seems almost delusional. 

but  after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 4.

[Ragerunner]

On 4/15/2022 at 3:29 PM, Teancum said:

It is problematic.  We see it in conservative christianity and in other conservative religions like our church. I don't see it near as much in the liberal side. At least not in as noisy as a way.  For LDS I get the appeal of conservative issues but it has been strange for me to watch Latter day Saints so willingly support a man like the former president and double down on the pandemic issues and vaccines inspire of what church leaders encouraged. It showed me that even those who think they are the most faithful Latter day Saints have thing they will break with the LDS leaders on.  It is not just liberal LDS people that will break  away from leaders on political issues.

Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in this statement. 

[provoman]

Have not read the whole thread. 

I agree the Gospel is apolitical. The Church has even published as such with respect to polarization of “parties”.

So called “moral issues”, in my opinion, still are political issues.

[smac97]

On 4/15/2022 at 7:44 AM, Navidad said:

Humanity has inevitably divided itself into groups (tribes, families, clans, all kinds of entities).

Interesting, though, that so much of Christianity is evangelical in nature, that we go about inviting people to join our "tribe."  That seems more inclusionary than exclusionary.

As pertaining to the Church, our greatest collective failure is the Priesthood Ban and its attendant exclusionary and divisive sentiments and prejudices.  

On 4/15/2022 at 7:44 AM, Navidad said:

There have always those who despise those who aren't of their tribe. It is not unique to the USA, religion, or race - but it does manifest itself with generalizing, normalizing, dehumanizing, and ranking - the four core elements that lead to all the various isms we talk about so much. I did mission work among the Borgawa who despised the Fulani, who despised the Yoruba and the Hausa! Despising is a sin as is generalizing, normalizing, dehumanizing, and ranking. In honor of my LDS friends here, I won't say it is a function of our sinful nature. I will simply say it is a function of our tendency to sin!

There is something beautiful in the Great Commission.  The universality of brotherhood and sisterhood is perhaps best encapsulated in 2 Nephi 26:33:

Quote

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

We have the template.  We have the instructions.  And I think the Church is working hard to improve and apply the foregoing sentiments. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

Interesting, though, that so much of Christianity is evangelical in nature, that we go about inviting people to join our "tribe."  That seems more inclusionary than exclusionary.

As pertaining to the Church, our greatest collective failure is the Priesthood Ban and its attendant exclusionary and divisive sentiments and prejudices.  

There is something beautiful in the Great Commission.  The universality of brotherhood and sisterhood is perhaps best encapsulated in 2 Nephi 26:33:

We have the template.  We have the instructions.  And I think the Church is working hard to improve and apply the foregoing sentiments. 

Thanks,

-Smac

Great reply. Thanks so much. Well written. I just would hope that you are able to extend that "we" beyond the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is a wonderful, interesting, and tremendously faithful community of believers in that broader "we."

I know you won't agree with me, but after the past years of my intricate and deeply involved sojourn in and around the LDS community, I would suggest that possibly its "greatest collective failure" (to use your term) is its failure to realize the rich and sacred extent of the "we" in the broader Christian family. Best wishes to you.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Navidad

[The Nehor]

20 hours ago, provoman said:

Have not read the whole thread. 

I agree the Gospel is apolitical. The Church has even published as such with respect to polarization of “parties”.

So called “moral issues”, in my opinion, still are political issues.

I don’t think the gospel is invariably apolitical. We have in our history political governments set up that verge on theocracy. I am talking about the history of the world in general with Enoch, Melchizedek, the Nephites, ancient Israel, etc.

I doubt we will see overt political action until the King returns. Presumably once some short people drop a ring into a fiery chasm or two prophets die in Jerusalem or whatever the signs say will happen the King can come and set up a benevolent theocracy with a combination of resurrected and semi-mortal people running it.

[The Nehor]

On 4/19/2022 at 10:08 AM, sunstoned said:

but  after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 4.

And the fallout is bad. It comes complete with its own prophecies of the end and impending victory.

Destroying marriages, lives, and relationships in the hope that “god” will return and vindicate them.

[provoman]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think the gospel is invariably apolitical. We have in our history political governments set up that verge on theocracy. I am talking about the history of the world in general with Enoch, Melchizedek, the Nephites, ancient Israel, etc.

I doubt we will see overt political action until the King returns. Presumably once some short people drop a ring into a fiery chasm or two prophets die in Jerusalem or whatever the signs say will happen the King can come and set up a benevolent theocracy with a combination of resurrected and semi-mortal people running it.

In it current application on earth, the Gospel is apolitical.

When Jesus returns, that will change, so I think I am in agreement with jist of your post.
Until Jesus returns, it is my opinion that Religion and Government must be separate by a WALL to the greatest extent that neither interferes with the other - except, in the USA, to the extent that the US Supreme Court permits the Government involvement with religion.