Politics becoming our religion.

[Rivers]

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

Except that Pilate is largely a fiction created by anti-Semitic Christians writing decades after the death of Jesus who sought to place all blame on Jesus's death on the Jews in order to avoid persecution from the Romans.

That’s one opinion.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

Except that Pilate is largely a fiction created by anti-Semitic Christians writing decades after the death of Jesus who sought to place all blame on Jesus's death on the Jews in order to avoid persecution from the Romans.

It is possible that is true but at that point there is little left to discuss about what Jesus’s message was actually about. If you don’t at least partially trust the text there is nothing to discuss.

[CV75]

On 2/22/2022 at 11:29 AM, smac97 said:

 

 

As regarding "divorcing" my political views from my religious views, I would echo BlueDreams comment about the latter "inform{ing}" the former, and also her comment about difficulty in separating political beliefs from religious beliefs.  So a few thoughts:

1. Never Married, Never Divorced: My politicial beliefs are separate from my religious beliefs.  Thus I don't need to "divorce" them since they aren't "married" to each other.  

2. Subordination: Rather than "divorce" the political from the moral/religious, I deliberately subordinate my political beliefs to my moral/religious beliefs.  That is, the former (my political sentiments) take their cues from the latter (my moral/religious beliefs).  I do not want a political ideology or party platform as the basis for answering or establishing a position on any moral question.

3. Political Philosophy as Intermediary: There is an intermediary between what I would call my religious beliefs/actions and my political beliefs/actions.  That intermediary is what I would call my "political philosophy."  That is, I first seek to ascertain what my religious beliefs are (based on scriptures, modern prophetic counsel, prayer and study, etc.).  Into that basic mix I add my experiential observations, my reading and information, my training in the law, and so on to arrive at a set of basic philosophical precepts pertaining to political considerations.  I then go looking for political parties, concepts, candidates, and so on that approximate these precepts.

4. Political Affinity is Finite: I have nowhere near a sense of affinity with, or a sense of fealty to or trust in, any political group/party as compared to my affinity with and devotion to my faith and family.  Allegiance to a political party is purely a matter of preference for me, to be given or withdrawn, to be increased or decreased, at my sole discretion.  

5. Perspective on Political Leaders v. Perspective on Religious Leaders: I also have a very different perspective on political leaders as compared to religious ones.  Per its own doctrines, the Church disclaims any civil authority:

In contrast, civil authorities are by design supposed to exercise civil authority over society and citizens.  Under the law I am entitled to participate in the political process, to publicly support things I like and oppose things I dislike.  I therefore feel utterly free to publicly disagree with and criticize and oppose any individual politician or political group or subgroup. 

The foregoing is quite different from my perspective on my religious leaders.  On this point I have been strongly influenced by then-Elder Oaks' 1987 Ensign article, "Criticism," in which he explains some concepts that I think are too frequently overlooked these days by members of the Church:

The entire article is worth a read, as he goes on to explain how criticism and disagreement should be handled in the Church.

6. Political Parties/Affiliations as Risky Necessities: I think political parties are both a practical necessity and a risky source of corrupting influences.  We must therefore engage with them (due to the former) while constantly being on guard about them (due to the latter).

Thanks,

-Smac

Interesting comments! I looked back at my formulation and made some adjustments as a result:

Yes, I divorce my politics from my religion, as it relates to partisanship and Church membership. I am a registered voter and vote my conscience even if that involves practical compromise from what I see as the ideal.

I see the difference between politics and partisanship much as I do the difference between spirituality and religion, religion and Church membership, and practice and identity. Fundamental to all of these is agency, which drives all of these. As a result, I cannot divorce politics from my agency, but as these other things change in consequence of my agency, my politics would change.

 

[the narrator]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is possible that is true but at that point there is little left to discuss about what Jesus’s message was actually about. If you don’t at least partially trust the text there is nothing to discuss.

It isn't all or nothing, and there are many reasons to distrust the later gospels' account of Pilate's supposed concern for Jesus--foremost of them being that Pilate was a ruthless and merciless ruler, and the earliest Gospel making it clear that he order Jesus to have a political execution for a political crime.

[CV75]

23 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Wikipedia definition of politics is this:

“Politics (from Greek: Πολιτικά, politiká, 'affairs of the cities') is the method of rulership over a national government[disambiguation needed], state government and local government in groups, or other forms of ruling power relations among individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.”

That would seem not to include the divine, as it pertains to national, state and local government — worldly forms — not to God’s kingdom. 

Here are a couple of other, perhaps arcane definiens (online): "the assumptions or principles relating to or inherent in a sphere, theory, or thing, especially when concerned with power and status in a society." and "the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area..." It could be said that Zion, the Millennial  kingdom of God, the Celestial kingdom's Church of the Firstborn, etc.  -- and any other kingdom of glory since each is governed by its respective laws (D&C 88), and some degrees have lesser status than others , etc. -- operate on divine politics, or systems of government and influence.

[poptart]

2 hours ago, the narrator said:

Except that Pilate is largely a fiction created by anti-Semitic Christians writing decades after the death of Jesus who sought to place all blame on Jesus's death on the Jews in order to avoid persecution from the Romans.

Mmmm, I dunno....

Tacitus on Jesus - Wikipedia

Tacitus on the Christians - Livius

 

[the narrator]

31 minutes ago, poptart said:

Mmmm, I dunno....

Tacitus on Jesus - Wikipedia

Tacitus on the Christians - Livius

 

My phrasing was not clear. I'm not saying that Pilate was a fiction. Rather that "that Pilate"--the compassionate for Jesus guy portrayed in later Gospels--is a fiction.

[poptart]

31 minutes ago, the narrator said:

My phrasing was not clear. I'm not saying that Pilate was a fiction. Rather that "that Pilate"--the compassionate for Jesus guy portrayed in later Gospels--is a fiction.

Oh, ok then thanks for clearing that up.  I thought I'd post what I wanted to and wait for a reply vs. sticking my foot in my mouth, again lol.  

I look at it this way, it was a lousy time to be alive period, the Romans weren't exactly nice, neither were the Jewish elites.  People forget, it wasn't one group of people totally responsible, it was a lot of people.  

I posted this here, sums up how I feel about the whole Romans vs. Jews thing you still see to this day.  It's disgusting, it was a long time ago, wish people would knock it off and focus on what Jesus taught.  Then again, the USA still has populations that despise Catholics, Latter Day Saints, POC etc.  Guess all we can do is sit back and hope for the best while living the best lives we can.  If I lived close to Fr. Casey I would likely end up a regular at his parish, he is one of my favorite priests.  

 

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, the narrator said:

My phrasing was not clear. I'm not saying that Pilate was a fiction. Rather that "that Pilate"--the compassionate for Jesus guy portrayed in later Gospels--is a fiction.

By that you mean you see a political reason to portray him that way. To be fair though it could have just happened in a way that made him sympathetic or he was trying to snub the Sanhedrin and Pilate did have trouble with the local government. He may have taken a liking to Jesus and wanted to embarrass the Sanhedrin. Or that that angle was there and was later exaggerated.

Pilate was an equite, a “knight” of Rome. Basically meant he came from the merchant class, the plebeians. The nice governorships (relatively stable and lucrative) went to the Senatorial families (patricians) and equites generally only got the stinkers like Judea. This suggests Pilate may have had some political ambitions or maybe he just wanted to try his hand at making money in the provinces.

Pilate lasted about ten years as governor of one of the least desirable governorships in the Empire so he was probably not incompetent. He was recalled for an investigation into his actions with the Samaritans later on but the Emperor died before he got back so he probably got home and retired from public life. In the Coptic Church it is believed Pilate became a Christian but stories of various figures from the Bible being converted later are all over the place and are poorly supported.

[mfbukowski]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:14 PM, Rivers said:

This thread will probably get closed since it contains  the word “politics.”  I notice that a lot of church members let their political views become their religion.  Or they view their religion through the lens of their political ideology.  I see it on both sides of the spectrum.  Lots of people do it.  I know I sometimes do it.  People on both sides quote Jesus to support their politics. 
 

But the gospel should be apolitical.  Christ said His kingdom is not of this world.  The gospel of Jesus Christ should transcend worldly politics.  
 

Is it possible to truly divorce our politics from our religion?

I define "religion" as what gives meaning to our lives.  A Purpose.  A Goal.  What we strive to achieve.  Hope for things unseen.  Stuff I would like to see happen in "reality".

In that sense, politics has always BEEN part of religion- they must go hand in hand.   

If you believe we all have "human rights" the question becomes how do we maintain those?  Through unhindered freedom for everyone to do what they want?  Where did these rights come from?  From God?  From utilitarian social convenience?

From a central givernment of wise elite people who know what's best for everyone else, or a combination of both?

Wise people are in short supply lately it seems!

So yes, they are inseparable, and for those who have not had spiritual experiences, all that is left is politics.  People need to learn that following the "stil small voice"  IS the purpose of life and it's  meaning.

But most importantly, they need to know that for some there could be nothing more important than stopping global warming and for others there could be nothing more important than reaching the Celestial Kingdom, but all of them are based on a "HOPE FOR THINGS UNSEEN" and then by definition there can be no empirical answer to which is "right" because both sides are faith and value-based.

So to me, "no politics" on a board dedicated to finding one's meaning in life is a little unrealistic in today's world.  You might as well just say "Theists Only".

Edited February 23, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, the narrator said:

Except that Pilate is largely a fiction created by anti-Semitic Christians writing decades after the death of Jesus who sought to place all blame on Jesus's death on the Jews in order to avoid persecution from the Romans.

After a thousand years or two, the of the motives of "real people" become more like looking at the role the character plays in a morality story than what "really happened".

Today it often takes just a few days for the "news cycle" to carve into stone a great story into "what really happened".  

There's a lot of money to be made in the truth creation business!

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Here are a couple of other, perhaps arcane definiens (online): "the assumptions or principles relating to or inherent in a sphere, theory, or thing, especially when concerned with power and status in a society." and "the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area..." It could be said that Zion, the Millennial  kingdom of God, the Celestial kingdom's Church of the Firstborn, etc.  -- and any other kingdom of glory since each is governed by its respective laws (D&C 88), and some degrees have lesser status than others , etc. -- operate on divine politics, or systems of government and influence.

Those are great macro definitions, but then we have the micro beliefs of each individual which become projected into society.   Whatever party you choose, you will always choose who you see as the "good guys" and the others as hoplessly lost, if not downright evil, at best!  

That's why we lump politics and religion into the category of things to be avoided in personal conversation, because in these cases deciding who is "right" is impossible.

Of course I personally always choose the "RIGHT" in both contexts.  🤕 

 

[bsjkki]

I do not believe members are replacing their faith with their politics. How does this work for those who have no faith? Do their politics become a de facto faith system? A religion of sorts in their lives? 

With members, I have heard both sides profess the other not compatible with our faith. Moral superiority based on personal political choices should be avoided...especially at church. 

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Oh, ok then thanks for clearing that up.  I thought I'd post what I wanted to and wait for a reply vs. sticking my foot in my mouth, again lol.  

I look at it this way, it was a lousy time to be alive period, the Romans weren't exactly nice, neither were the Jewish elites.  People forget, it wasn't one group of people totally responsible, it was a lot of people.  

I posted this here, sums up how I feel about the whole Romans vs. Jews thing you still see to this day.  It's disgusting, it was a long time ago, wish people would knock it off and focus on what Jesus taught.  Then again, the USA still has populations that despise Catholics, Latter Day Saints, POC etc.  Guess all we can do is sit back and hope for the best while living the best lives we can.  If I lived close to Fr. Casey I would likely end up a regular at his parish, he is one of my favorite priests.  

 

Poptart, this is so good!  I see why you like this priest!!

[poptart]

10 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Poptart, this is so good!  I see why you like this priest!!

Thanks!  If more parishes would do something about their politics and do more about family dysfunction, income inequality and all the other thing Pope Francis keeps reminding the privileged here of I'd likely be a practicing Catholic.  

Here's another good one.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PwQYefFrki0

 

[Jaydes]

I think it is important to be involved in and care about politics. The Doctrine and Covenants, Modern Prophets, and the Council of Fifty make this clear.

But the issue i see is people go beyond politics and instead do in fact make it their new religion. So many people nowadays I see willing to disobey and attack messages by our Prophet just because it contradicts their political beliefs and the political pundits that have been made their new prophets.

[Jaydes]

It will be impossible to divorce our religion from politics unless you will decanonize the D&C, say the Council of Fifty was invalid, and invalidate the many prophets that have been political leaders and influencers even by the command of God.

[CV75]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Those are great macro definitions, but then we have the micro beliefs of each individual which become projected into society.   Whatever party you choose, you will always choose who you see as the "good guys" and the others as hoplessly lost, if not downright evil, at best!  

That's why we lump politics and religion into the category of things to be avoided in personal conversation, because in these cases deciding who is "right" is impossible.

Of course I personally always choose the "RIGHT" in both contexts.  🤕 

 

I recommend this book: The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion(2012), by Jonathan Haidt

I vote, but I consider myself as a non-partisan (no matter who I vote for!), just doing my best.

[Megalodon]

19 hours ago, poptart said:

Oh, ok then thanks for clearing that up.  I thought I'd post what I wanted to and wait for a reply vs. sticking my foot in my mouth, again lol.  

I look at it this way, it was a lousy time to be alive period, the Romans weren't exactly nice, neither were the Jewish elites.  People forget, it wasn't one group of people totally responsible, it was a lot of people.  

I posted this here, sums up how I feel about the whole Romans vs. Jews thing you still see to this day.  It's disgusting, it was a long time ago, wish people would knock it off and focus on what Jesus taught.  Then again, the USA still has populations that despise Catholics, Latter Day Saints, POC etc.  Guess all we can do is sit back and hope for the best while living the best lives we can.  If I lived close to Fr. Casey I would likely end up a regular at his parish, he is one of my favorite priests.  

 

My favorite Catholic priest, too.

[Tacenda]

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/10/29/21540402/news-sen-mike-lee-compares-donald-trump-to-captain-moroni-from-book-of-mormon

Yep, politics becoming religion.

[poptart]

50 minutes ago, Megalodon said:

My favorite Catholic priest, too.

This board never ceases to amaze me, outside of my discords, reddits etc this place is one of the few more public places that knows of things beyond their own world. 

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/10/29/21540402/news-sen-mike-lee-compares-donald-trump-to-captain-moroni-from-book-of-mormon

Yep, politics becoming religion.

I wonder if these people ever stop to consider their enemies save screen caps of that stuff along with anything they can find on their social media.  This is a midterm year, 2024 is right around the corner.  It's so easy to just use a VPN and public WiFi to spam screen caps on Twitter etc. And make their whole side look bad.  Suburbs aren't these fortresses these people think they are. Considering these people love to flaunt their families and privilege I'd think they would think twice, guess not lol.  That's why I posted that Douglass county story, both sides do it and never consider what may happen, it's getting ugly here.

https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/education/2020/06/04/cheerleader-who-used-racial-slur-will-not-attend-university-of-tennessee/3147231001/

[Tacenda]

Yet another nephew is going for the QAnon conspiracies and posted this on Facebook. They're brothers though. I'm dumbstruck!

https://rumble.com/v10pjkc-dangercovid-19-virus-and-vaccines-bioweapon-is-created-from-royal-king-cobr.html?fbclid=IwAR3Q3gRyA9Yorv9lxqF-FoGBAQCegQ2mp0XH_z2OL-AVX6j_I9RGvQxoJgM

🛑☠️BREAKING NEWS☠️🛑
COVID-19 Virus & Vaccines Bioweapon is created from Royal King Cobra Snake Venom NOT Bats.

-Corona = Crown = Royal = King
-Most Satanic Evil Biblical Christianity Symbol = Reptilians Serpent = Adam and Eve and the Venomous Apple Bites from the serpent in the Garden of Eden.
-Most Evil Dangerous Venomous snake = Royal King Cobra
-Serpent Logo of Health services, ambulances, medical emergency, EMS, WHO World Health Organization
-Virus original definition = Venom
-Black Goo = Venom
-Corona Virus = King Cobra Venom
-Vaccines = Mark of the Beast = Getting bitten by venomous serpent.
-When getting bitten by venomous serpent = Respiratory illness, can't breath, loss of taste and smell, blood cloths, organs failure.
-What did George Floyd "Fake death" said = I Can't Breath. During a respiratory illness plandemic.
-Trump strange story in rallies of the venomous snake who bites and kills was giving us clues.
-What protects against venomous snakes bites = Zinc, hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, Quercetin, N.A.C, Vit. C, Copper, Nicotine, Bentonite Clay, Corticosteroids, Budesonide.
-COVID Venom can be injected and mixed in Municipal Water worldwide. (WATCH THE WATER).
-Transhumanism DNA Gene Editing with reptilian King Cobra.
-Humans are being mixed with reptilians on the surface of earth so they can live out of the inner earth.
-This is why they want less sun, more cold, afraid of global warming, they prefer reptilians environment ecosystem.
-The more vaccines and boosters they take, the more they will transform like the Crispr gene editing. Next generations will be mixed up with reptilians for those who are not dead from venom. Next gen. will be immunize to the venom.
-We are being ruled and controlled by a reptilian satanic cult/race who wants to poison us with venom so that we suffocate and can't breath.
-There's NO coincidence! It is all planned.

[2BizE]

I don’t think members can separate politics from church because the church can’t separate itself from the state…especially in Utah.

[Bane]

On 2/21/2022 at 11:14 PM, Rivers said:

Is it possible to truly divorce our politics from our religion?

I don't think so, no.

[bsjkki]

On 2/23/2022 at 2:34 PM, mfbukowski said:

Those are great macro definitions, but then we have the micro beliefs of each individual which become projected into society.   Whatever party you choose, you will always choose who you see as the "good guys" and the others as hoplessly lost, if not downright evil, at best!  

That's why we lump politics and religion into the category of things to be avoided in personal conversation, because in these cases deciding who is "right" is impossible.

Of course I personally always choose the "RIGHT" in both contexts.  🤕 

 

I recently heard someone say standards /policies in the macro and love in the micro.

My politics informs my policy decisions. 
 

My religion requires I love those before me. 
 

I may think our current border policies are unwise. But, I will donate and give time and money helping those in need and aide ward members whose parents are arrested by ICE.  (True story)
 

I would ‘bake the cake’. But also, defend the right of someone not to. I would attend a gay wedding. I will go to baby showers for unwed teen mother’s. (Very controversial in my ward. SMH)