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Brad Wilcox fireside to Alpine youth on Feb 6.


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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

the classic pile-on.

How many have to be critical in order to qualify as a pile-on in your view?

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You haven’t said anything here that has not been repeated ad nauseam on this thread — the classic pile-on. I just think enough is enough and that it’s time to stop. 

The curious thing is that 25 years ago very few members would have even thought twice about Wilcox’s remarks, but the new breed of woke, cancel culture affirming members, who praise abortion and gay marriage as virtues, brazenly act as if they occupy the unassailable moral high ground  

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18 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

(If I gambled) I would bet that there are still some out there today that follow McConkies 1st printing of Mormon Doctrine and say that the Roman Catholic Church is the Great and Abominable Church.

I have no doubt there are members who enjoyed the way he phrased it and backed him all the way. And I know of some who believe the Roman Catholic Church is the GandA. I just don’t believe that only very few members would have been troubled by it 25 years ago.  I remember conversations I had with many about respecting other faiths and I had my first conversation with a missionary around then about remembering to respect the sacrifice he was asking investigators to make by converting, including possibly a loved faith.  50 years ago, my mother and grandmother both criticized derogatory remarks about others’ faith and I have no doubt my dad and one of my grandfathers would have as well if such came up when they were around, not sure if my other two grandparents would have been concerned about it, but if asked if they thought other faiths were playing at church, I am pretty sure they would say it was insulting to say so.

Edited by Calm
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On 4/16/2022 at 12:15 PM, CV75 said:

Whatever happened with Elder Wilcox -- has the tenor his youth presentations changed? Did he have a conversation with BYU students wanting to incite change?

I don't think the meeting ever took place. If it had, I'm sure Nate Byrd and "Black Menaces" would have posted video and tried to agitate more off of their "dialogue" with Wilcox. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-mormons-turn-tiktok-hold-majority-white-school-accountable-race-rcna25366

In hindsight, I think Wilcox handled the disruption of his class video ambush perfectly by suggesting they schedule an appointment. That was the best thing he could have done in that moment with the camera rolling. 

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12 hours ago, rongo said:

I don't think the meeting ever took place. If it had, I'm sure Nate Byrd and "Black Menaces" would have posted video and tried to agitate more off of their "dialogue" with Wilcox. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-mormons-turn-tiktok-hold-majority-white-school-accountable-race-rcna25366

In hindsight, I think Wilcox handled the disruption of his class video ambush perfectly by suggesting they schedule an appointment. That was the best thing he could have done in that moment with the camera rolling. 

I had seen the Black Menace TikToks and didn't pick up any direct tie-in to Wilcox, either. They present as entirely neutral in asking their questions, but certainly have subtly differing (maybe not so) reactions suggesting the "right" and 'wrong" answers, as hard as they may be trying. The non-verbal communication from the respondents is very interesting, too, suggesting various motives and feelings about giving the "right" answer. All in all, though, I think it is a constructive outlet and a helpful exercise, for as long as it lasts.

Maybe the meeting with Wilcox was kept confidential for some reason.

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38 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I had seen the Black Menace TikToks and didn't pick up any direct tie-in to Wilcox, either. They present as entirely neutral in asking their questions, but certainly have subtly differing (maybe not so) reactions suggesting the "right" and 'wrong" answers, as hard as they may be trying. The non-verbal communication from the respondents is very interesting, too, suggesting various motives and feelings about giving the "right" answer. All in all, though, I think it is a constructive outlet and a helpful exercise, for as long as it lasts.

Maybe the meeting with Wilcox was kept confidential for some reason.

I doubt it ever took place. 

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14 hours ago, Calm said:

Mocking other churches by saying they were “playing church”?  I don’t think so.  I know quite a few, including those whose families belonged to other faiths who would have been troubled by his comments.

1995 with what he said about blacks and the priesthood, I am iffy on that one.  I would not be surprised if it had been ignored for the most part.  We didn’t have as much info on how the Ban occurred as we do now and speculation is a major pastime in the Church.  Plus we had fewer black members to educate us on what the implications of the speculations meant to them.  I am glad we are more informed now than we were 25 years ago.

Supposedly” better informed now than we were 25 years ago,” but straining at good Brother Wilcox’s well intentioned  gnats while many here swallow the camels of “modern” woke culture wickedness, pushing for the acceptance of forbidden things that 25 years ago nearly every member clearly understood to be evil … Anybody here in favor of allowing open displays of homosexual affection at Church functions?

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10 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

woke culture wickedness, pushing for the acceptance of forbidden things that 25 years ago nearly every member clearly understood to be evil

Cannabis use is one example.

Edited by Chum
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10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Spring Break? It seemed like the students had a golden opportunity.

I don't think he's pursued the meeting, followed up, or cooperated if the Black Menaces have followed up.

They are Tik Tokkers with a stated goal of making the BYU and Church community uncomfortable, and they filmed themselves disrupting his class. We would have heard (in spades) if they had met with him, or if he had requested that it be an off the record "dialogue," as they wanted. I think they would have recorded and posted it, even if they had agreed not to. 

Tik Tokkers need new, constant content, and The Great White Hunted would have eclipsed their "man on the street" videos. With NBC News yesterday, I definitely think we will hear from them soon, one way or another (that the meeting has or has not taken place).

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The "pile on" accusation is rather ironic. Because at least the person making it, and probably more people on this board, did whatever is the inverse of piling on. Whistling past the graveyard? Being a yes man? Blind apologetics? Whatever term you want to use as the inverse of the pile on, in the face of what was clearly inappropriate tone, doctrinal speculation at best, and dismissive comments to many groups (those with doubts, black people, feminists etc.), some people didn't see anything wrong the statements of Wilcox.

In fact, an absurd amount of discussion on this thread had nothing to do with his talk but instead was about the rank of the person giving it. I didn't read about any concern they had for the people that might have been negatively affected by the words of leader in the Lord's chosen church acting in an official capacity. But they come out swinging against a supposed "pile on."   If I seem stuck on this point,  its because I think that attitude shows an utter and astounding lack of empathy and compassion, which was the core problem with Wilcox's speech in the first place. And many on this board seemed okay with that behavior. 

I certainly think that some places did pile on. For example, I used to blog at a place called Wheat and Tares, and I specialize in military history and have written what I think is the most comprehensive statement on the church duty to love our neighbors in Ukraine: https://publicsquaremag.org/politics-law/freedom/loving-neighbors-by-standing-up-to-their-slaughter/

So I noticed how the perma bloggers there spent more time attacking Wilcox than speaking out against the Russian invasion and slaughter of Ukrainians. And when they did talk about Russia one blogger did a three part series on gay people in Eastern Europe! I told them, and got "piled on" for it, that if Putin gave a bad speech about "the blacks" maybe then they would start caring about the innocents he is slaughtering. 

But on this board I don't think it was a pile on. The discussion would have benefitted from a little less of the inverse. More people providing an honest and yes, critical examination of a leader's words that weren't very helpful and compassionate, without the hyperbole found in other places. But the discussion wasn't helped by the one complaining about the pile on the most.  Personally, I'm going to keep showing concern for the "least of these" in and out of the church, which include the groups dismissively discussed by Wilcox. 

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3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Supposedly” better informed now than we were 25 years ago,” but straining at good Brother Wilcox’s well intentioned  gnats while many here swallow the camels of “modern” woke culture wickedness, pushing for the acceptance of forbidden things that 25 years ago nearly every member clearly understood to be evil … Anybody here in favor of allowing open displays of homosexual affection at Church functions?

Sure, why not? We should welcome everyone. I mean what are you going to see some hand-holding or a quick kiss? I don’t think straight or gay people plan to make out at the church potluck. 

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Interestingly, on the Black Mormon Menace group, this article popped up on my newsfeed this morning

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-mormons-turn-tiktok-hold-majority-white-school-accountable-race-rcna25366

Some excerpts:

Quote

The group’s videos have blown up nationwide, prompting parody videos and sparking discourse about the university’s culture and honor code. The account had more than 670,000 followers and nearly 23 million likes as of Thursday. The Menaces ask fellow students questions like whether gay couples should be allowed to openly date on campus, whether reverse racism exists and how many Black friends they have at BYU.

Quote

 

Byrd, a senior and the president of the Black Student Union, said the organization has met with a variety of administrators about the experiences of people of color at BYU. The university’s Committee on Race, Equity & Belonging, formed at the height of the George Floyd protests in June 2020, completed a study in February 2021 as a result of those talks.

The report recommended a variety of reforms, such as making curricular changes to better educate students about race, developing a plan to increase graduation rates for students of color and providing faculty members of color opportunities to serve in senior leadership positions. But Byrd said he hasn’t seen any actionable change since the report was published more than a year ago.

 

Quote

 

The group posted its first video in early February after a church leader, BYU professor Brad Wilcox, remarked that asking about the church’s ban on Black clergy — which wasn’t lifted until 1978 — posed the “wrong” question.

“Maybe instead of asking why the Blacks had to wait until 1978 to get the priesthood,” he said, “we should be asking why did the whites and other races have to wait until 1829.”

Wilcox has apologized. But for Black members of the church, the comment highlights a history of ostracization that complicates their relationship with their faith. Dorsey, a junior who works mostly behind the scenes for the Menaces, said she was shocked to hear those words from someone she respected.

“I was like, how in the world is this possible, honestly? How could this man that has so much power in our church be able to say stuff like this and say it confidently?” Dorsey said. 

But since she started the Menaces’ TikTok account, Dorsey said, she has been pleasantly surprised by the support the group has received from students across the country, especially those who have faced similar experiences at predominantly white institutions. 

 

There is no mention of having asked Wilcox for an interview in this piece, and so no mention of whether or not one ever took place.

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6 hours ago, Chum said:

Cannabis use is one example.

Not the medical kind, imo. My daughter had two huge lymph nodes on her neck for going on three weeks and I had her rub my cannabis oil on them for a few days and they are gone now. 

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25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Not the medical kind, imo. My daughter had two huge lymph nodes on her neck for going on three weeks and I had her rub my cannabis oil on them for a few days and they are gone now. 

That makes sense. Cannabis was sinful, now it improves lives.

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1 hour ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Does Byrd think there is a magic wand to make those things happen quickly?

 

It’s been over a year I think, so he’s probably expecting something to be happening.

Hopefully it is but just not visible yet. 

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It’s been over a year I think, so he’s probably expecting something to be happening.

Hopefully it is but just not visible yet. 

"Church leadership has responded to the particular conditions of our modern moment with an enormously increased attention to the varieties of woundedness about us. A simple General Conference word search, for instance, reveals that the word “heal” is occurring with almost 500% greater frequency than in any previous decade in the nineteenth or twentieth century. “Wounded” has also been occurring with greater frequency since 2010 than at any previous period in history. After this past April conference, that statistic will need to be revised upward even more dramatically, because the conference witnessed an unprecedented, explicit recognition of the extent of human woundedness and the scope of Christ’s healing concerns. "

There is a lot of things going on, a lot of hurt and woundedness. At some level, the Church is paying attention (and with this particular issue, forging significant relationship with the NAACP is one of the efforts). But, don't expect anything like the preacher described at the beginning of Givens's article. https://publicsquaremag.org/faith/gospel-fare/the-urgent-need-to-console-the-wounded/

 

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

It’s been over a year I think, so he’s probably expecting something to be happening.

Hopefully it is but just not visible yet

Assuming the report was also released in Feb 2021:

Quote

such as making curricular changes to better educate students about race

I doubt you'd be able to completely restructure course content in 6 months ready for a September start, and they're not going to change things mid semester.

Quote

developing a plan to increase graduation rates for students of color

You won't see this until the newly commenced students reach graduation times. Students that are several years into their degree will unlikely be affected by any changes (if they haven't dropped out yet they probably won't).

Quote

providing faculty members of color opportunities to serve in senior leadership positions.

Not sure how the leadership works at BYU, but at the university here, I only see positions change when 1) someone retires or 2) there is a faculty restructure. The first of these can't be controlled, and the second takes planning, and is unlikely to  give running planning progress updates to a tiktok group. Ultimately this will take time because you get to get faculty members of color into positions where they would be in contention for the position when it is made available.

Edited by JustAnAustralian
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1 hour ago, JustAnAustralian said:

doubt you'd be able to completely restructure course content in 6 months ready for a September start, and they're not going to change things mid semester.

My husband told me awhile back it is a massive effort these days to get anything changed in curriculum. He probably wouldn’t have become a professor if just starting today.  So many repetitive meetings.  Too many hoops to jump through.

He said he would predict minimum 6 months, but up to a year.  University wide would depend on what was being done.

However, state universities might have more rules than a private university. 

Edited by Calm
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I would assume a plan for increasing graduation rates might include scholarships or subsidies for those who work so they don’t have to work as many hours and go to school at the same time and providing mentors, possibly tutors early on if gaps in education for their chosen field in comparison to other students (I was poorly prepared for a degree in engineering as I was unfamiliar with anything electronic and the professors assumed a basic knowledge I am guessing because many high schools had workshop programs that covered it for boys.  I probably wouldn’t have changed my major if provided with some tutoring for the basics.)

Not sure how long a scholarship program would take to get in place, if funding could be diverted from something else or they had to go asking for some to cover any new programs. Mentoring and tutoring might be offered on an individual level if a professor saw a student struggling, but I would assume it would be announced so students could request help because it can take too long for a prof to notice. I would assume such were already in place though.  They put in mentoring for women in the engineering dept the semester after I quit (there were only four of us…three without me, so it wasn’t a major deal), I assume mentoring programs are pretty widespread these days.

The faculty positions…there is some rotation (so many years in a position, then someone else gets it), but I agree with JAA’s points at needing to get POC into positions that then feed into senior leadership, so my guess is that won’t be noticeable for awhile unless professors share conversations they have been having with their bosses about the future and my guess is that is unlikely to happen. 

I think it would be wise to have university leaders meet with the POC student leaders at least once a semester to keep them apprised of progress.  If I was an older student, I would want to be sure change was happening before I left so I knew my efforts weren’t in vain and the ball dropped as the advocates cycled out of the university due to graduating.  I might get vocal if I couldn’t see it happening and the admin wasn’t communicating. 

Edited by Calm
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