BYU under investigate by US Government

[sunstoned]

7 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

who knows.   Brigham Young would spend a day endowing hundreds of saints, one at a time.

Agreed.  There has been many time saving changes to the endowment.  

[ttribe]

36 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

Which ones?

Why are you asking me? I simply pointed out that your response to him made no sense.

[Duncan]

18 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

My question was about creating laws that are equally fair to everyone.  I don't see the connection.

other universities, not BYU, don't care one whit the sexuality of the student, BYU does and prohibits certain activities that other universities wouldn't think twice about. Guess who is getting into heat with your Government, not other universities. Maybe BYU will listen to the Government

[ttribe]

50 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

BYU does have some stupid rules like guys not being able to have beards but other universities are not concerned about getting their students to live lives so they can pass the judgement bar of God.   BYU has a more long term outlook for the students that extend beyond death.  Other universities are just looking to get the students money and push the out the door.

That's a pretty cynical outlook. I have reason to believe that many (most?) universities have goals other than being diploma mills. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[kimpearson]

I keep waiting for someone to share the revelation from God declaring homosexual actions and gay marriage to be wrong.  Right now all we have are opinions of the men who are in charge of the Church.  They have put forth it is wrong because God never talked about it and only talked about marriage between a man and a woman.  No prophet dead or alive as ever proclaimed a revelation where God told them homosexual actions and gay marriage are wrong.  President Nielsen tried to with the November 2015 policy but then he had to walk that back.  God still remains silent on the subject yet many of you proclaim God is against homosexual actions and gay marriage.  You have no evidence of that.  Once again no prophet has declared thus saith the Lord, homosexual actions and gay marriage are wrong.  What you do have is the doctrinal interpretations by church leaders starting in the 1960's that being homosexual itself was a sin worthy of excommunication.  Prior to the 1960's known homosexuals in the Church were not excommunicated.  Church leaders have now changed their doctrinal interpretations to that of its not a sin to be homosexual but it is a sin to act upon it.  No one can take a stance that God has spoken with finality on this issue.  That is just not true and Church leaders have not said God has given a definitive answer.  Currently all we have is the opinion of Church leaders.

What is God's position, we simply don't know.  Leaders have attempted to arrive at an answer by using other scriptures to come up with an answer.  My answer to my prayers is that we still haven't got God's answer on this issue.  What the Church is currently doing towards queer individuals only hurts, causes intense emotional suffering and destroys the lives of queer folk.  That is all the evidence I need to indicate that what we are doing now is wrong.

 

Attached is a much more in depth discussion of this issue.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/dialjmormthou.50.2.0001#metadata_info_tab_contents

[T-Shirt]

39 minutes ago, Duncan said:

other universities, not BYU, don't care one whit the sexuality of the student, BYU does and prohibits certain activities that other universities wouldn't think twice about. Guess who is getting into heat with your Government, not other universities. Maybe BYU will listen to the Government

I said it is impossible to make laws or rules that seem fair to everyone.  You said others have done it.  Name one who has done so and name the rule or law you are referring to.

[T-Shirt]

42 minutes ago, Duncan said:

other universities, not BYU, don't care one whit the sexuality of the student, BYU does and prohibits certain activities that other universities wouldn't think twice about. Guess who is getting into heat with your Government, not other universities. Maybe BYU will listen to the Government

This still has nothing to do with my question.

Edited January 21, 2022 by T-Shirt

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

nothing, but it isn't the same to homosexuals and heterosexuals

Homosexual and Heterosexual is just an arbitrary concept created by people to justify doing what they want. People don't have to follow rules because they don't have "the Disposition" to follow the rule.

I get it, Hedonism is a thing for everyone today, Everyone wants what everyone wants.

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

ah, I never went to BYU and  more LDS students didn't either- We had Church attendance help us with that and institute or seminary or family

I never went to BYU Either. Part of the reason I didn't go there was because I thought some of the rules were silly.  I still respected those rules, otherwise I would have gone and just ignored them.  

These people want to go to BYU even though they know the rules and then want to ignore them because they are "Special"

[ttribe]

8 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Homosexual and Heterosexual is just an arbitrary concept created by people to justify doing what they want. People don't have to follow rules because they don't have "the Disposition" to follow the rule.

I get it, Hedonism is a thing for everyone today, Everyone wants what everyone wants.

This is the most backward, thoughtless, ignorant post I've seen on the Internet today.  Congratulations.

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, ttribe said:

This is the most backward, thoughtless, ignorant post I've seen on the Internet today.  Congratulations.

Glad to have made you day.

[ttribe]

Just now, Danzo said:

Glad to have made you day.

Actually, you've just further reduced my faith in humanity.

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Actually, you've just further reduced my faith in humanity.

Anything to help

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’d change it to read, “BYU under Investigation by Biden Administration”. 

Uh oh, am I going to have to use this in my bias lesson?  

[Duncan]

52 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

I said it is impossible to make laws or rules that seem fair to everyone.  You said others have done it.  Name one who has done so and name the rule or law you are referring to.

here's a good one from my local University,

"6. Choose to not attend classes or write exams on holy days of your religion

• Notify your instructor at least two weeks in advance to find an alternative due date or exam date without penalty.
• The ... Senate has a list of religious holidays in the student handbook that are included within school policy."

some more

Definitions: 1. Discrimination 1.1 For the purposes of the application of the Policy, discrimination shall be as defined in the ... Human Rights Code as follows: (a) differential treatment of an individual on the basis of the individual's actual or presumed membership in or association with some class or group of persons, rather than on the basis of personal merit; or (b) differential treatment of an individual or group on the basis of any Applicable Characteristic referred to in subsection 1.2; or (c) differential treatment of an individual or group on the basis of the individual's or group's actual or presumed association with another individual or group whose identity or membership is determined by any Applicable Characteristic referred to in subsection 1.2; or (d) failure to make reasonable accommodation for the special needs of any individual or group, if those special needs are based upon any Applicable Characteristic referred to in subsection 1.2. 1.2 Applicable Characteristics The Applicable Characteristics for the purposes of clauses 1.1(b) to (d) above are: (a) ancestry, including colour and perceived race; (b) nationality or national origin; (c) ethnic background or origin; (d) religion or creed, or religious belief, religious association or religious activity; (e) age;(f) sex, including sex-determined characteristics or circumstances, such as pregnancy, the possibility of pregnancy, or circumstances related to pregnancy; (g) gender identity; (h) sexual orientation; (i) marital or family status; (j) source of income; (k) political belief, political association or political activity; (l) physical or mental disability or related characteristics or circumstances, including reliance on a service animal, a wheelchair, or any other remedial appliance or device; (m) social disadvantage."

this is from 2013

Edited January 21, 2022 by Duncan

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

who knows.   Brigham Young would spend a day endowing hundreds of saints, one at a time.

So no 15 min endowment. That's what I thought.

When Brigham arranged it the duration was basically the same.

Wednesday 4 I spent the day in the upper part of the Store (I.E.) in my private office (so called, because in that room I kept my sacred writings, translated ancient records, and received revelations) and in my general business office or Lodge Room (I.E. where the Masonic fraternity met occasionally for want of a better place) in Council with General James Adams, of Springfield, Patriarch Hyrum Smith, Bishops Newel K. Whitney and George Miller,—— —— and Presidents [HC 5:1] Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards, instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds. In this Council was instituted the Ancient order of things for the first time in these last days. And the communications I made to this Council were of things Spiritual, and to be received only by the Spiritual minded: and there was nothing made known to these men, but what will be made known to all <the> Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive, and a proper place is prepared to communicate them, even to the weakest of the Saints;

 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

I keep waiting for someone to share the revelation from God declaring homosexual actions and gay marriage to be wrong.  

Does there need to be one?

We have revelation detailing God's plan and ordinances pertaining to marriage.  Is he required to ban every possible counterfeit specifically?

[Peacefully]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Sometimes I think that God doesn't make changes because of the hardness of our hearts and that we are losing out on blessings because He knows we won't receive the further light and knowledge He wants to give us. 

I reject the idea that it's only through unauthorized changes that we move further away from God.  Refusing to accept or consider authorized changes produces the same effect.

Just like the poor, our biases are always with us.  We like to pretend that they don't get in the way of our relationship with God but of course they do.  There is not one person among us who isn't receiving less blessings than God wants to give because of the hardness of our hearts and our weaknesses.

Thank goodness for the Atonement.

As President Uchtdorf said “Don’t judge me because I sin differently from you.” 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

The entire body of canonized scripture is full of broken, changed and ignored rules.  I have already posted on the modified law of chastity.  A couple from the NT that we seemed to have forgotten about are "a bishop should be husband of one wife" and "women should remain silent in the churches".  And then we have the biggie, the new and everlasting covenant was shot down by the united states government.  Maybe there is a different definition for everlasting that I am not aware of.  None of us have a crystal ball so we don't know. From what I can tell there is no limits and we shouldn't assume anything.

The gospel does not require us to suppose something to be the case without spiritual proof. If someone has spiritual proof that contradicts the Brethren's position, they still have covenants to keep and an order to maintain. The Lord will befriend them, which is a far greater blessing than getting one's own way, if they are so inclined. He will bring people together to build His kingdom in His time.

Now we do have some proof that the Church handles social issues better than society. For example, it seems that American society is not functioning well in terms of the Black experience, given the persistent contention on the subject. But the Church seems to have gotten much further ahead on that point, and moved much faster in instituting and implementing lasting change (priesthood equality, if that's a proper term). So, in hindsight, it seems the Church’s approach was better after all. From this, I think we can extrapolate that the Church has greater proof on handling current the ordination and marriage issues.

[ttribe]

Just now, CV75 said:

The gospel does not require us to suppose something to be the case without spiritual proof. If someone has spiritual proof that contradicts the Brethren's position, they still have covenants to keep and an order to maintain. The Lord will befriend them, which is a far greater blessing than getting one's own way, if they are so inclined. He will bring people together to build His kingdom in His time.

Now we do have some proof that the Church handles social issues better than society. For example, it seems that American society is not functioning well in terms of the Black experience, given the persistent contention on the subject. But the Church seems to have gotten much further ahead on that point, and moved much faster in instituting and implementing lasting change (priesthood equality, if that's a proper term). So, in hindsight, it seems the Church’s approach was better after all. From this, I think we can extrapolate that the Church has greater proof on handling current the ordination and marriage issues.

Are you SERIOUS?! Have you lived in the U.S. South and tried to convert black Americans to Mormonism?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Uh oh, am I going to have to use this in my bias lesson?  

Saying “the government” is investigating BYU when it’s more precise to say that Biden’s Department of Education is doing it? Yeah, that does seem a bit biased. 
 

Added later: Joking aside, when referring to “the government,” don’t you think it’s important to clarify and distinguish between whether one is referring to the lasting, foundational institution of government and the regime or politically partisan administration  that is temporarily in power at any given time? They’re not perfectly synonymous. Seriously, that could be a stimulating and thought-provoking question to take up in your unit on bias. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Are you SERIOUS?! Have you lived in the U.S. South and tried to convert black Americans to Mormonism?

I've learned that people that write things in CAPS aren't seriously engaged in a dialog.

The Church's missionary success in the American South has nothing to do with the rapid, transformational change that took place in June 1978. Your comment rather highlights on the continuing racial problem in American society, not a problem with the Church's missionary efforts or "current (as of 1978)" priesthood policies.

Have you ever lived in Nigeria, Ghana, DR Congo or Cote d'Ivoire? Brazil, which was first?

Edited January 22, 2022 by CV75

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I've learned that people that write things in CAPS aren't seriously engaged in a dialog.

The Church's missionary success in the American South has nothing to do with the rapid, transformational change that took place in June 1978. Your comment rather highlights on the continuing racial problem in American society, not a problem with the Church's missionary efforts or "current (as of 1978)" priesthood policies.

Have you ever lived in Nigeria, Ghana, DR Congo or Cote d'Ivoire? Brazil, which was first?

Okay, nice dismissive.  I served my mission in Tennessee and Kentucky and can say without hesitation that it was extremely difficult to convince black Americans that there was anything worth pursuing with regard to the LDS Church. I can also say, without hesitation, that the Church's history of waiting so long to allow equality was a major stumbling block to conversion.

No, I've lived none of the places you stated.

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

I keep waiting for someone to share the revelation from God declaring homosexual actions and gay marriage to be wrong. 

 

Is there any scripture that suggest that homosexual actions and gay marriage are right?   I can make a good case for polygamy that there are times it is right.   One can use this argument for a variety of things.   What about this man who built a robot and married it? 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/04/chinese-man-marries-robot-built-himself

Look at the happy couple.  Perhaps a revelation from God will come that says this is ok and we can start sealings in the temple soon of man with robots.  I am sure that you might think the idea of marrying a robot is absurd.  No more absurd that gay marriage was in the minds of most Americans 30 years ago.  Who knows what society will accept 30 years from now. 

The reality is the whole idea that God might be accepting of same sex marriage is based on wishful thinking.  A hope that God has a revelation out there that its ok.  

 

[T-Shirt]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

here's a good one from my local University,

"6. Choose to not attend classes or write exams on holy days of your religion

You think that an athiest activist will think that rule is fair?  Are you as willing to go to bat for the athiest activist simply on the grounds that he thinks the rule is unfair?  You want fairness, yet fairness is such a subjective term, it would be impossible to write any kind of law or rule that everyone will think is fair.  Policies, rules and laws are not about fairness, as much as we might try to make them so, they are about what any given entity determines to be right for itself.  BYU's policy on dating may not seem fair to everyone, but it is the same for everyone.