Danzo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Duncan said: can gay students have "romantic affection" without "sexual behaviour"? because heterosexual students can Isn't romantic affection a type of sexual behavior?
Duncan Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Danzo said: Isn't romantic affection a type of sexual behavior? i'd think so but with it's banned for one and not the other at BYU and also apparently it's the same as "alcohol consumption" 1
smac97 Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 10 minutes ago, Duncan said: can gay students have "romantic affection" without "sexual behaviour"? because heterosexual students can The distinction between thought/emotion/feeling and action/behavior is relevant here. As is the Church's position that having same-sex feelings is materially distinguishable from acting on them. Thanks, -Smac
Danzo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 Just now, Duncan said: i'd think so but with it's banned for one and not the other at BYU and also apparently it's the same as "alcohol consumption" I would say dating without marriage as the goal generally leads to trouble for all involved. BYU's rules are pretty well known from the outset. There are plenty of places to go to school that don't have those rules. having different schools with different rules is a good thing. It allows people a real choice on where they want to go to school. Having a general expectation (although not a universal application) of moral principles is one of the reasons people choose to go to BYU. Why would you want to deprive someone of that opportunity? 1
smac97 Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 14 minutes ago, Duncan said: it's true if you get too close to the fire you can get burned but also true if you move too far back you can freeze to death. Even God said it isn't good for man to be alone God also put constraints on sexual behavior. And emphasized them. 14 minutes ago, Duncan said: would a heterosexual student want to same sex date? I doubt it. I doubt it, too. That's my point. Disparate impact, but not disparate treatment. Thanks, -Smac
rongo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 Just now, Danzo said: This is a weird hypothetical. IF you can't touch someone now or ever, then you probably wouldn't date them. A guess you can call anything you want a marriage these days, but if you can't touch someone, it would be a strange marriage. I agree. I was trying to put myself in their shoes. I don't think I would date and get married if I wasn't able to or allowed to hold hand, hug, and kiss. Or if we weren't able to ever get married, or if we would have had to live celibately after marriage. It would have changed the whole dynamic. I'm the world champion "slow mover" (my wife was my first kiss). I dated, and am good with people (and was with girls), but I was so scared of being rejected (what do you do if she pulls away? I still don't know how you handle something that awkward) or presuming or imposing that . . . I was a slow mover as far as the displays of affection stuff. Yes, the companionship and friendship is very important, but would I have dated if I didn't have the end to the means? Dating under such conditions would seem like self-torture to me --- which is why I think encouraging gay dating in the Church is a non-starter. Unfortunately, for gay people to overcome and be exalted, they are going to have to carry that particular cross. But, caving on this issue doesn't help or save them,. It complicates or makes it harder.
JLHPROF Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 1 hour ago, ttribe said: Ahhhh, there it is. The defenders' inevitable comparison of homosexuality to recognized diseases and the downplaying of the biological disposition towards sexual orientation. I think it's wrong to compare it to a disease or disorder and I don't accept that. I am completely willing to accept it as an inherent disposition. But does that mean it should be embraced in our actions? There are many biological dispositions that we work to overcome and many that we embrace. Optimism, a bad temper, anxiety, empathy, addictions, thrill seeking, gambling, high or low self esteem, the list is endless. The idea that just because something is innate in our being that means it should be accepted doesn't hold water for me. I'm working too hard to overcome many of my own mortal dispositions, biological, emotional, etc. 1
Duncan Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, smac97 said: The distinction between thought/emotion/feeling and action/behavior is relevant here. As is the Church's position that having same-sex feelings is materially distinguishable from acting on them. Thanks, -Smac and again therein lies the problem, heterosexual students can act and gay students can't act on feelings
rongo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, Danzo said: I would say dating without marriage as the goal generally leads to trouble for all involved. BYU's rules are pretty well known from the outset. There are plenty of places to go to school that don't have those rules. having different schools with different rules is a good thing. It allows people a real choice on where they want to go to school. Having a general expectation (although not a universal application) of moral principles is one of the reasons people choose to go to BYU. Why would you want to deprive someone of that opportunity? I think there are also gay students who don't decide they are gay or who come to terms with themselves being gay until they are already in the middle of college (sometimes not until after a mission. Some not until after marriage and children). I empathize with someone like that --- they didn't go to BYU under false pretenses; they were trying to do what they could. Yes, they could have chosen a different school, but the issue wasn't an issue or didn't have the same magnitude when they decided to go there. 2
smac97 Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 18 minutes ago, rongo said: Quote I dated my now wife for several months before we were engaged, and we were engaged for six months before getting married. During this time I knew that fornication was an extremely serious sin. I loved my wife, but I knew that I was constrained from expressing that love via sexual behavior until after we were married. How would your dating/courtship have been different if you had known that you would never be able to have sex? I was on the dating scene as a preparatory effort to find a wife, with the expectation that we would do what most couples do. 18 minutes ago, rongo said: Would you still have done it and gotten married? If I had proposed to my wife and she had said "Just so you know, I will marry you, but I will never have sex with you," I think that would have affected things. I either would have accepted the constraint or else broken off the relationship (likely the latter, as I wanted to have a family). 18 minutes ago, rongo said: What if during your upwards of one year dating and courtship, you also couldn't hold hands, hug, or kiss? That seems to happen in some cultures. I'm glad it didn't happen in mine. Meanwhile, however, while we dated and were engaged there were still constraints on our behavior. I could not date or be affectionate with other girls. No sex or inappropriate touching. Etc. 18 minutes ago, rongo said: No, what is required of gays in the Church is different than what is required of straights. No. The requirement is the same. The impact of that requirement is different. In legal parlance, there is disparate impact, but not disparate treatment. 18 minutes ago, rongo said: And I say that as someone who doesn't want change in doctrine and policy on this. We can still empathize with and understand the concern and the reasons. I quite agree. I have never suggested that we not empathize or understand the concern. Thanks, -Smac
smac97 Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Duncan said: and again therein lies the problem, heterosexual students can act and gay students can't act on feelings There is no disparate treatment of feelings, though. The Honor Code does not prohibit feelings, only behavior. And the constaint on behavior applies to everyone. Thanks, -Smac
Duncan Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, smac97 said: God also put constraints on sexual behavior. And emphasized them. the bridle (Alma 38:12) doesn't kill the horse though 7 minutes ago, smac97 said: God also put constraints on sexual behavior. And emphasized them. I doubt it, too. That's my point. Disparate impact, but not disparate treatment. Thanks, -Smac you honestly think if a heterosexual students came and confessed to their bishop that he/she made out with another heterosexual they would be treated the same as a homosexual student? For my friend Ricky, he didn't have to come in, others did it for him and he was out. Even if other students didn't tell the Bishop I can only imagine what would happen if a homosexual student confessed to that as opposed to a heterosexual student
Danzo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, rongo said: I agree. I was trying to put myself in their shoes. I think a better comparison is when one falls in love with or is attracted to someone they shouldn't be with (as happens to many of us) Could be because the person is already married, you are already married, the person is under age, is the same sex, Is just a bad person, or has too many problems (drug addict, mental problems, financial problems, etc) Dating and snuggling, and hand holding in that situation will always lead to more harm than good. In those situation it's probably for everyone's good that romantic relationships be avoided. 1
Duncan Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 1 minute ago, smac97 said: There is no disparate treatment of feelings, though. The Honor Code does not prohibit feelings, only behavior. And the constaint on behavior applies to everyone. Thanks, -Smac tell me what you think would happen to a lesbian BYU student who made out with another girl she was involved with vs. a heterosexual man making out with someone he also was involved in? you honestly think they would be treated the same? 1
Danzo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, rongo said: I think there are also gay students who don't decide they are gay or who come to terms with themselves being gay until they are already in the middle of college (sometimes not until after a mission. Some not until after marriage and children). I empathize with someone like that --- they didn't go to BYU under false pretenses; they were trying to do what they could. Yes, they could have chosen a different school, but the issue wasn't an issue or didn't have the same magnitude when they decided to go there. You make it sound like sexual attraction is the most important thing in the world. Liking someone isn't license to do whatever you want. Many people survive college without dating someone they are attracted to (I Did). Part of being an adult is learning how to deal with not getting what you want. Edited January 21, 2022 by Danzo 1
JLHPROF Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Duncan said: tell me what you think would happen to a lesbian BYU student who made out with another girl she was involved with vs. a heterosexual man making out with someone he also was involved in? you honestly think they would be treated the same? No. Do you believe the violation based on LDS belief is equivalent?
Danzo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 9 minutes ago, Duncan said: and again therein lies the problem, heterosexual students can act and gay students can't act on feelings Must of us must learn not to act on feelings. Its part of being an adult.
Duncan Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: No. Do you believe the violation based on LDS belief is equivalent? equivalent to what? single or involved people do kiss each other
Danzo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, Duncan said: tell me what you think would happen to a lesbian BYU student who made out with another girl she was involved with vs. a heterosexual man making out with someone he also was involved in? you honestly think they would be treated the same? Do you think they should be treated the same?
Duncan Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Danzo said: Must of us must learn not to act on feelings. Its part of being an adult. so homosexuals aren't adults then? I don't think homosexuals are any more sexually wanton than heterosexuals, I would even say less so
Duncan Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Danzo said: Do you think they should be treated the same? I think they should be treated the same but I highly, highly doubt they would be. Mind you I don't see making out with someone something you would see the bishop about anyways, but others may see it differently
T-Shirt Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 33 minutes ago, Duncan said: can gay students have "romantic affection" without "sexual behaviour"? because heterosexual students can Not with members of the same sex.
Danzo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 Just now, Duncan said: so homosexuals aren't adults then? I don't think homosexuals are any more sexually wanton than heterosexuals, I would even say less so You are the one saying they can't control themselves, not me. Sexual control is a part of life, a part of the gospel, no matter how choose to see yourself.
Danzo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 Just now, Duncan said: I think they should be treated the same but I highly, highly doubt they would be. Mind you I don't see making out with someone something you would see the bishop about anyways, but others may see it differently You don't think intent ever matters? You aren't in favor of the law of chastity?
Danzo Posted January 21, 2022 Posted January 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Duncan said: I think they should be treated the same but I highly, highly doubt they would be. Mind you I don't see making out with someone something you would see the bishop about anyways, but others may see it differently What if both happened to married (to other people)? Do still condone the behaviour?
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