BYU under investigate by US Government

[Duncan]

Just now, T-Shirt said:

Not with members of the same sex.

and that's the problem, why can heterosexual students have affection for each other but gay students can't? why do heterosexuals have to control themselves but apparently homosexual BYU students have zero sexual feelings, it's almost like they are asexual or something

[Danzo]

Just now, Duncan said:

and that's the problem, why can heterosexual students have affection for each other but gay students can't? why do heterosexuals have to control themselves but apparently homosexual BYU students have zero sexual feelings, it's almost like they are asexual or something

Why can't a married person have affection for a non married person?

There are certain sexual behaviors that aren't right.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

equivalent to what? single or involved people do kiss each other

Equivalent in severity?  In LDS belief is there not a difference between homosexual and heterosexual acceptable behaviors?

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I think they should be treated the same but I highly, highly doubt they would be. Mind you I don't see making out with someone something you would see the bishop about anyways, but others may see it differently

Again, are they equivalent in severity?  

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, Danzo said:

You make it sound like sexual attraction is the most important thing in the world.  

That wasn't my intent. It's important, but not the most important thing in the world.  

8 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Liking someone isn't license to do whatever you want. 

I've never said anything close to that. But, where hand-holding, etc. are perfectly okay for straight students, it isn't for gay students (from our point of view). Acknowledging isn't giving license to do whatever they want. 

11 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Many people survive college without dating someone they are attracted to (I Did). 

I don't think it's the same thing to compare that with the fact that we are telling people they can't ever date someone they are attracted to (even after college). 

12 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Part of being an adult is learning how to deal with not getting what you want. 

Of course, but again, we are telling them they will never get what they want. Again, I think we should continue to do this, but I think it helps if we also stop insisting that they aren't being asked to do anything that we aren't asked to do. It's not the same. 

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

What if both happened to married (to other people)? Do still condone the behaviour?

if two people who are married to others at BYU made out with each other? if they were both both heterosexuals than that would problematic for a lot of reasons but I didn't think they allowed gay married BYU students. 

[Duncan]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Equivalent in severity?  In LDS belief is there not a difference between homosexual and heterosexual acceptable behaviors?

Again, are they equivalent in severity?  

that's what I am saying, there is a "difference" in severity in hetero and homosexual behaviours and it is unfair so fix it.

[MiserereNobis]

All I gotta say is... @provoman, for the love of God, can you fix the title of the thread so it says "investigation" !?

I'm sure it's driving @Scott Lloydcrazy, too 😁

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Duncan said:

that's what I am saying, there is a "difference" in severity in hetero and homosexual behaviours and it is unfair so fix it.

And I'm saying that difference in severity is part of LDS belief.  Why should they fix it?

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Why can't a married person have affection for a non married person?

There are certain sexual behaviors that aren't right.

 that's a problem too but none that the government is getting involved in

[Duncan]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

And I'm saying that difference in severity is part of LDS belief.  Why should they fix it?

fairness, isn't God a fair God or isn't he?

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

I don't think it's the same thing to compare that with the fact that we are telling people they can't ever date someone they are attracted to (even after college). 

Except That is exactly what we are talking about. No one is taking away degrees after they are earned for same sex behaviour

 

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

Of course, but again, we are telling them they will never get what they want.

As long as we are only looking to get what we want we will always be disappointed on one thing or another. "Thy will be done, not mine"  is something we all need to learn.

As CS Lewis said (Paraphrasing) In the end there are two choices, either we will say to God "Thy will be done" or God will say to us "Thy will be done"

If we chose the second, we will find out our will doesn't bring happiness.

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if two people who are married to others at BYU made out with each other? if they were both both heterosexuals than that would problematic for a lot of reasons but I didn't think they allowed gay married BYU students. 

Exactly. Its not the act but the intent.

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

fairness, isn't God a fair God or isn't he?

I think God has a different view of Justice than we do. Thankfully

[Danzo]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

 that's a problem too but none that the government is getting involved in

Aren't we having this discussion because the government is getting involved?

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Duncan said:

fairness, isn't God a fair God or isn't he?

Very.  I think you see these as variations on the same act.  I don't think that aligns with LDS belief. 

Recognizing that kissing is hardly a mortal sin, acts of homosexual behavior will always be considered more severe sins than acts of heterosexual behavior based off our teachings.  There are differences.

[T-Shirt]

7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

and that's the problem, why can heterosexual students have affection for each other but gay students can't? why do heterosexuals have to control themselves but apparently homosexual BYU students have zero sexual feelings, it's almost like they are asexual or something

I understand you think it is a problem, nevertheless, the rule is the same for everyone.  It is no different.  i understand that it would be very hard for someone who is gay to attend BYU, especially if they want to act on their feelings.  There are many feelings and desires beyond homosexuality that people have that, if acted upon, would be contrary to the BYU honor code.  Since they agreed, in advance, to the honor code, there is no justification for acting on those feelings or desires, no matter how strong or socially acceptable they are.

[Duncan]

Just now, Danzo said:

Aren't we having this discussion because the government is getting involved?

it reminds me of when Canada legislated SSM in the mid 2000's and the Church said nothing, like ten ? or so years later it came to the US and you'd think the world was coming to an end. All of this because of the Government yet i'm throwing it out there but there have been gay LDS students in other campuses all over the world for decades and what was said then?

[Duncan]

Just now, T-Shirt said:

I understand you think it is a problem, nevertheless, the rule is the same for everyone.  It is no different.  i understand that it would be very hard for someone who is gay to attend BYU, especially if they want to act on their feelings.  There are many feelings and desires beyond homosexuality that people have that, if acted upon, would be contrary to the BYU honor code.  Since they agreed, in advance, to the honor code, there is no justification for acting on those feelings or desires, no matter how strong or socially acceptable they are.

I guess the Government is looking at what the "rule" is and if it is fair to everyone

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Very.  I think you see these as variations on the same act.  I don't think that aligns with LDS belief. 

Recognizing that kissing is hardly a mortal sin, acts of homosexual behavior will always be considered more severe sins than acts of heterosexual behavior based off our teachings.  There are differences.

how do you see "variations" and "differences" as being different?

[T-Shirt]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

Of course, but again, we are telling them they will never get what they want. Again, I think we should continue to do this, but I think it helps if we also stop insisting that they aren't being asked to do anything that we aren't asked to do. It's not the same. 

I acknowledge hat keeping the honor code is much more difficult , in this regard, for someone who is gay.  That does not change the fact that the rules are the same for everyone.  That, I think, is the point Smac has been trying to make by using alcohol as an example.  He is not comparing alcoholism to homosexuality, he is simply pointing out that though the rules are the same for everyone, they are not equally simple to follow for everyone.

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

All I gotta say is... @provoman, for the love of God, can you fix the title of the thread so it says "investigation" !?

I'm sure it's driving @Scott Lloydcrazy, too 😁

I’d change it to read, “BYU under Investigation by Biden Administration”. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

 

 

4 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

I acknowledge hat keeping the honor code is much more difficult , in this regard, for someone who is gay.  That does not change the fact that the rules are the same for everyone.  That, I think, is the point Smac has been trying to make by using alcohol as an example.  He is not comparing alcoholism to homosexuality, he is simply pointing out that though the rules are the same for everyone, they are not equally simple to follow for everyone.

They aren't the same for everyone

[T-Shirt]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I guess the Government is looking at what the "rule" is and if it is fair to everyone

It is impossible to make rules or laws that are fair to everyone.  You can make them the same for everyone, but not fair for everyone.

[Duncan]

Just now, T-Shirt said:

It is impossible to make rules or laws that are fair to everyone.  You can make them the same for everyone, but not fair for everyone.

hmm, other universities have it figured out. Maybe BYU is just stupid then

[T-Shirt]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

 

 

They aren't the same for everyone

Of course they are, notwithstanding your reluctance to recognize it.