BYU under investigate by US Government

[MacGyver]

13 hours ago, ttribe said:

 

 

I'm trying to understand why you perceive this to be the bridge too far.  Presumably, you've both repeatedly raised your hand to sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve to be "Prophets, Seers, and Revelators."  Presumably, you've also covenanted to give everything to the Church in the Temple. You both say you believe in continuing revelation, but neither say why this is the thing that would put the Church into "open apostasy" or would be God "break[ing] his own rules" or why same-sex relations are "abominable." Why this issue?

Are you familiar with what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah?

If the church embraces same-sex relations and stops calling them an abomination, then we will be ripe for destruction. If that ever happens, I will not go along with it. 

[MacGyver]

24 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

The scriptures don't say that. You are projecting. 

Yes, they do say that. God's eternal laws do not change. 

Read the rest of the verses in the chapters I quoted from, particularly Romans 1. The wage for this sin, and many others, is death. The only escape is repentance and forgiveness through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, ttribe said:

I served my mission in Tennessee and Kentucky and can say without hesitation that it was extremely difficult to convince black Americans that there was anything worth pursuing with regard to the LDS Church. I can also say, without hesitation, that the Church's history of waiting so long to allow equality was a major stumbling block to conversion.

I served my mission in the Eastern United States. I taught a number of African-Americans who joined the Church. The congregation in our headquarters city would have been about 80 per cent African-American members. In two years, I had one person raise concerns with me regarding past priesthood restrictions, and it was a man on the street in my first area, who got the details completely wrong.

I should add that I never tried 'to convince' anyone of anything as a missionary, however. We left the convincing up to God.

The last African-American family whom I taught was in a ward with a man whom we had dubbed the 'ward mission leader from hell'. Our mission president had repeatedly tried to get the stake president to release him, to no avail. He had many faults, but one of the major ones was his ugly racism (and his European-born wife was even worse). In our first lesson with this family, we warned them about the WML. They took it in stride and assured us they had almost certainly faced worse.

Their conversion was sweet, and they became a great strength to the ward.

[Calm]

I do think it likely the policy has had a significant effect on proselytizing in the US at least as if one compares the demographic composition of wards they seem to be less diverse in most places I have lived than the surrounding community, though I have no clue how significant it might be.
 

It would be interesting to see any studies that have been done. I have a few books it might be in, but they would be decades out of date and I am trying to talk myself into adding them to the Purge, so I don’t want to remind myself of their usefulness since I have managed not to reference them for at least a year.  

So if anyone knows of something online, please post. I did a quick Google, but it was just numbers of Saints in the US, not breaking them down at all. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

I did come up with better search terms so did find this. 
 

“6Mormons are relatively young and less diverse when compared with other Christian groups, and they are younger than the U.S. population as a whole. The median age of U.S. Mormons is 43, while the median age of the general population is 46. As a religious group, they also are much less racially and ethnically diverse than the U.S. population as a whole, with fully 85% of U.S. Mormons identifying as non-Hispanic white.”

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/09/30/6-facts-about-u-s-mormons/

Also:  https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/mormon/racial-and-ethnic-composition/#demographic-information

It would need to be adjusted for density of membership to be very useful, imo, given the high number of members located in the Mormon corridor with Colorado, Idaho, Montana, and Utah all being over 80% non-Hispanic white. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

9 hours ago, ttribe said:

I am very familiar with the issue of segregation amongst churches in the American South.  Moreover, I was not the only missionary with this 'struggle;' it was universal. The overwhelming majority of persons of color who discovered that the Church: 1) ever had a prohibition; and 2) that it took them until 1978 to fix it, walked away. They would hear nothing more, and rightfully so; the prohibition was shameful.

There is also the issue of not seeing one’s own culture within the Church apparently. Hopefully this will change and not just be different for special events. Maybe the new hymn book will help. 

https://universe.byu.edu/2018/10/17/church-embracing-diversity-but-members-say-theres-room-for-progress-1/

[Calm]

Interesting 2014 (so comment on growth may or may not be accurate now) article for a variety of reasons:

https://www.deseret.com/2014/6/10/20542851/future-diversity-in-mormonism-is-a-theme-of-history-conference

Quote

Speaking from a non-Mormon scholarly perspective, Saturday morning speaker Jehu J. Hanciles of the Candler School of Theology at Emery University called the church “a movement that takes its worldwide presence very seriously.”

“But friends, Mormonism remains a predominately American phenomenon,” he added. “The LDS Church lags behind virtually every other major branch of Christianity in the area of inculturation.”

Giving Africa as an example, he said Christianity is growing there faster than anywhere else, now accounting for 24 percent of the world’s Christian population. “Mormonism in its recent history grew spontaneously on the African continent,” he observed. “Yet … the growth of Mormonism in Africa … has been quite modest, and compared to other traditions, disappointing.”

The main reason for this is the church’s lack of accommodation to African cultures and worship styles, he said.

Calling for more cultural inclusiveness, and alluding to Moses’ statement in the Bible, “Would that all God’s people were prophets,” Hanciles concluded, “In a church where members speak approximately 170 different languages as their first language, only God knows the number of his prophets.”

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

It would need to be adjusted for density of membership to be very useful, imo, given the high number of members located in the Mormon corridor with Colorado, Idaho, Montana, and Utah all being over 80% non-Hispanic white. 

I have lived in parts of America where our congregations are more diverse than the surrounding population. I have also lived in parts of America (such as the 'Mormon Corridor') where our congregations are far less diverse than the surrounding population.

The Caribbean branch that I belonged to was, as far as I could discern, the only congregation on the island that wasn't at least unofficially segregated by race. (Most people lived in 'cultural' enclaves that effectively created racial divides in worship.)

In my current location, my ward and stake would both be far, far more diverse than the surrounding population. I would estimate that fully half of the members who attend my ward regularly are migrants. Some, like me, were members when they migrated. Others, like both of my current housemates, converted here. 

On previous threads, I have quoted my West Africa-born housemate's opinion of these kinds of discussions. Needless to say, he's never been impressed.

[Duncan]

8 hours ago, MacGyver said:

I quoted from both the New and Old Testaments. God no longer requires that men who engage homosexual relations be put to death, but the eternal punishment that awaits those who are guilty of this abomination and do not repent is the same. 

The Book of Mormon was written for our day, why is there no mention whatsoever about homosexuality? Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, none of those verses come from the four gospels. Those verses you quoted can be interpreted different ways you know.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, Duncan said:

The Book of Mormon was written for our day,

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10102577067672550&id=2905861
 

Quote

Latter-day Saints are very practical. We tend to be interested in what scripture means for our beliefs and our actions. But sometimes, we jump the gun and end up misreading or misunderstanding scripture because we want to get there so quickly! We fail, in effect, to gather the necessary data before interpreting it. Part of that impulse might be the idea that "scripture was written for our day"... except it wasn't. (And that's a reductionist reading of the Book of Mormon too, but that's for another post.)

Great timing in your comment, Duncan. I just read this FB post of Ben’s today and this is the push I need to ask him to make a post of why “scripture was written for our day” is a reductionist reading of the BoM.  Can’t guarantee he will,  but maybe he will point me in the right direction and then I will post about it for you and anyone else who might be interested. 

Added:  I did find this on his website as a starter…

Quote

One might jump to the conclusion that he is writing with his latter-day readers in mind, thanks to the theme that “the Book of Mormon was written for our day.” But rather, the Book of Mormon was edited for our day by Mormon and Moroni, 1000 years after the events of 1 Nephi. By contrast, Nephi himself does not know why he has been commanded to write (1Ne 9:5), and says that he wrote for his own people.

https://benspackman.com/2020/01/bom-gospel-doctrine-lesson-2-1-nephi-1-7/

Edited January 22, 2022 by Calm

[Stormin' Mormon]

36 minutes ago, Duncan said:

The Book of Mormon was written for our day, why is there no mention whatsoever about homosexuality? Jesus said nothing about homosexuality, none of those verses come from the four gospels. Those verses you quoted can be interpreted different ways you know.

Classic case of goal post moving. The original request (from Kim) was for revelation declaring the wrongness of homosexual behaviors.

But once those scriptures were provided, they didn't count because they were from the Old Testament. And now the rest don't count because they aren't from the four gospels or the Book of Mormon.

I suspect that even if the 15 issued a proclamation on this topic, you would move the goal post yet again. Wait a minute, they have and you will.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Stormin' Mormon

[bsjkki]

7 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Are you familiar with what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah?

If the church embraces same-sex relations and stops calling them an abomination, then we will be ripe for destruction. If that ever happens, I will not go along with it. 

In my research from the Book of Mormon there are two distinct things that happen when you know you are ripe for destruction. That is not one I found. 

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Classic case of goal post moving. The original request (from Kim) was for revelation declaring the wrongness of homosexual behaviors.

But once those scriptures were provided, they didn't count because they were from the Old Testament. And now the rest don't count because they aren't from the four gospels or the Book of Mormon.

I suspect that even if the 15 issued a proclamation on this topic, you would move the goal post yet again. Wait a minute, they have and you will.

classic case of unable to come up with an answer. 

"they didn't count because they were from the Old Testament"

to which I replied that those verses have multiple meanings, not having anything to do with homosexuality

and you can't provide any from the Book of Mormon or any modern scripture-which were written for our day

please let me know about the Proclamation on Homosexuality, what conference did it come out in? That's right, they haven't and you don't know what you're talking about. Love Thy neighbour, even thy gay neighbour

[kimpearson]

9 hours ago, MacGyver said:

Here you go:

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (Leviticus 18)

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (Leviticus 20)

17 ¶ There shall be no... sodomite of the sons of Israel. (Deuteronomy 23)

 

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (Romans 1)

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (1 Corinthians 6)

 

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; (1 Timothy 1)

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. (Jude 1)

Read these scriptures in their context.  Are they revelations from God? no.  Were they written by prophets claiming to receive revelation? Nope.  They are guidance from church leaders at the time nothing more.  The bible is full of such guidance from church leaders that is their opinion.  They never claimed it was revelation from God.   Did Christ speak these words?  Nope.  Did any prophet in the Book of Mormon receive revelation on the subject?  Did Adam, Noah, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah or Elijah receive revelation on the subject? Nope.  Did Joseph Smith or any modern prophet receive revelation?  Nope.  Does our doctrine claim there is a lot of error in the Bible? Yep and you both just pointed some of it out.  Show me the conference talk that quotes any of these scriptures.  You might find one or two many years ago but nothing recently.

I still maintain there is no revelation on this subject and no one can state they know God thinks its wrong.  The best you can do is based on other scriptures and making your own very broad and loose interpretations conclude you believe it to be wrong.

[MacGyver]

39 minutes ago, Duncan said:

The Book of Mormon was written for our day, why is there no mention whatsoever about homosexuality?

The Book of Mormon confirms the truthfulness of the Bible, which does repeatedly mention homosexuality.

We are also only currently in possession of the lesser 1/3 of the record. The greater 2/3 was held back specifically to try our faith. So we can't say that there is no mention whatsoever about homosexuality in the Book of Mormon. 

42 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Jesus said nothing about homosexuality

He sure did. The Book of Mormon and New Testament both say that Jesus is the one who gave the law in Old Testament times, which included the commandment forbidding homosexuality relations. The updates to the law he made in the New Testament and Book of Mormon concerning morality and chastity were all stricter or higher than they were under the old law. Jesus now requires greater moral and sexual cleanliness, not less. 

48 minutes ago, Duncan said:

none of those verses come from the four gospels.

That doesn't matter. 

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. (D&C 1)

51 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Those verses you quoted can be interpreted different ways you know

How else can they be interpreted? They are as plain as day.

[Stormin' Mormon]

14 minutes ago, Duncan said:

 That's right, they haven't and you don't know what you're talking about. Love Thy neighbour, even thy gay neighbour

Pretty much the reply I expected, thanks.

But I wanted to highlight the quote above because it is a wild misrepresentation of the positions espoused by every Latter-day Saint I know. 

When we discussed this topic in Sunday school last month, there was such an outpouring of love and empathy for our LGBT brothers and sister, both in and out of the church. And at the same time, a full embrace of the Proclamation which places those behaviors outside of God's plan for His children.

I can believe that certain behaviors will keep one from achieving their full potential as a child of God and at the same time love the people who engage in those behaviors. I do it all the time, every day, constantly. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Stormin' Mormon

[MacGyver]

12 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

In my research from the Book of Mormon there are two distinct things that happen when you know you are ripe for destruction. That is not one I found. 

The Book of Mormon tells us to dillegently search the words of Isaiah, and frequently quotes from him. 

Isaiah 1 says the following about the Lord's people who have rebelled against him and are ripe for destruction:

4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.    
5 ¶ Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.           

10 ¶ Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

Then in Isaiah 3, which is quoted in 2 Nephi 13, the Lord says:

8 For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the Lord, to provoke the eyes of his glory.
9 ¶ The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.
10 Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.
11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

If we tell those who practice the abomination of homosexual relations, like the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah did, that there is no sin in this and that it will be well with them, we would most certainly be in open rebellion against God and ripe for destruction. 

[Bob Crockett]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So no 15 min endowment. That's what I thought.

You thought wrong.

[MacGyver]

21 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Did ...Moses [or] Isaiah... receive revelation on the subject?

Yes they sure did. See the verses I quoted from Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Isaiah. Each one is a direct quote from the Lord as delivered to his prophet. 

As for the other statements by the prophets, they are the word of God, too.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. (D&C 68)

[Duncan]

36 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

The Book of Mormon confirms the truthfulness of the Bible, which does repeatedly mention homosexuality.

I think you means the truths of the Book of Mormon confirm the truths of the Bible, except homosexuality, which isn't "repeatedly" mentioned. Sounds to like you are manipulating scripture to fit your own worldview.

 

38 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

We are also only currently in possession of the lesser 1/3 of the record. The greater 2/3 was held back specifically to try our faith. So we can't say that there is no mention whatsoever about homosexuality in the Book of Mormon. 

You can't say it's in there either though

 

41 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

He sure did. The Book of Mormon and New Testament both say that Jesus is the one who gave the law in Old Testament times, which included the commandment forbidding homosexuality relations. The updates to the law he made in the New Testament and Book of Mormon concerning morality and chastity were all stricter or higher than they were under the old law. Jesus now requires greater moral and sexual cleanliness, not less. 

He fulfilled the law in OT, said nothing about homosexuality in the NT, it was Paul and most likely added later by other writers one interpretation about homosexuality, but Jesus said nothing. Not there and not in the Gospels, Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants. 

 

44 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. (D&C 1)

I can say the same about people wanting to put their own interpretations on the scriptures. You can't point one scripture that has Jesus saying he denounces homosexuality, because it doesn't exist, as much as you want it to to justify your ridiculous assertions.

 

46 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

How else can they be interpreted? They are as plain as day.

oh really? "plain as day" do you know that the sun of Sodom and Gomorrah may have been lack of charity to poor people? Ezekiel 16:49-50

Do you study scriptures at all much? or think they can be interpreted only one way?

[Duncan]

46 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Pretty much the reply I expected, thanks.

But I wanted to highlight the quote above because it is a wild misrepresentation of the positions espoused by every Latter-day Saint I know. 

When we discussed this in topic in Sunday school last month, there was such an outpouring of love and empathy for our LGBT brothers and sister, both in and out of the church. And at the same time, a full embrace of the Proclamation which places those behaviors outside of God's plan for His children.

I can believe that certain behaviors will keep one from achieving their full potential as a child of God and at the same time love the people who engage in those behaviors. I do it all the time, every day, constantly. 

I am sure the gay community appreciates your support

[Duncan]

22 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

Yes they sure did. See the verses I quoted from Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Isaiah. Each one is a direct quote from the Lord as delivered to his prophet. 

As for the other statements by the prophets, they are the word of God, too.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. (D&C 68)

and you are going to make sure they are only talking about homosexuality! Not about what they were really talking about. By the way Lev. 18 excludes lesbianism

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Some, like me, were members when they migrated.

Thank you for saying “like me” instead of “like myself.”

[Stormin' Mormon]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I am sure the gay community appreciates your support

More goal post moving.

First it was "love thy gay neighbor," now it's "support the gay community."

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

More goal post moving.

First it was "love thy gay neighbor," now it's "support the gay community."

so love means nothing in action, got it