Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in decline?

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think that's a slightly more effective approach than your last one. Keep practising!

Thank you for continuing to demonstrate my point.

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Who knows? Someday you may succeed in making me feel responsible for your unhappiness.

So you can read my mind?  And through a message board determine my emotional state?  Or are you just being a jerk?  Actually I am happier than have ever been.  Freedom from thought and mind control high demand organizations is a wonderful thing.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We had an Elder serve in our ward about three years ago. After a lesson in my home one night, he commented that he had no real-life experiences to share when teaching because, before his mission, he'd never had a real life. I asked him what he meant, and he said his only memories were of gaming and 'binge-watching' television. Sad. He said he'd gone from thinking he had the best parents in the world to thinking he had the worst.

At least he realised the nature of his situation.

Part of my mission prep class is preparing our future missionaries to 'wake up from the Matrix'. Even the best ones are used to escaping virtually multiple times per day.

Ironically the best way for children and teenagers (particularly males ones) to need less virtual experience is physical exercise of any sort. It doesn’t kill the interest if there is one but it puts it in the hobby category.

I put a lot of the blame for this on education. I don’t know how to fix it but we put kids in an environment in school where they are accomplishing virtually nothing. They are retreading the work of others and your grade is just a matter of ticking off a few boxes. Many video games fall into the same category but it is relaxing by comparison because any setbacks (bad grades) are only temporary.

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, indeed.  Joe Rogan & Ben Shapiro discussed this problem just yesterday:

 

I admit I have a hard time taking Ben Shapiro seriously when he suggests people unplug and get back to reality considering his whole life is informational and largely online and his attempts to show him in reality often end like this:

That is a guy who has no idea what lumber is for or how to make anything out of it.

”I would like a piece of wood and would you please bag that for me?”

It is not just him. It reminds me of other pics of self-declared ‘manly men’ who just aren’t. One that sticks out in my mind is a guy showing his work shed and you could tell just by looking at the impractical setup, the unrealistic cleanliness, and the obvious safety hazards that none of it had ever been used for anything.

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

On this board you likely will get very few answers based on what is actually going on.  All belief  with the exception of anyone who has had a personal visit from God is based on faith.  What is the definition of faith: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  Those faithful believers who have a very black and white faith will follow this scripture.  It doesn't matter what evidence you or anyone else provides, the Church will win in the end.  I have a little different type of faith.  God, not the Church will win in the end.  I believe 95% of general authorities are black and white faithful believers that don't worry as long as those at the top keeps coming out with programs represented as revelation like "Come follow me", ministering, the new youth program and the abundance of online firesides that are billed as opportunities to address the issues that different groups in the Church face.  Remember that currently you have general authorities asserting every chance they can get that these new programs are effective and blessing the lives of every faithful members of the Church.  Thus you see the discussion in this thread that pretty much dismisses anyone who leaves as someone who because of their own actions lost their faith.  Faithful believers including general authorities will almost never accept that many are losing their faith due to the words and actions of those very same leaders.

Now you and I and a few others might have an interesting conversation but I am pretty sure it will be picked apart and dismissed as unfaithful.  I will give it my try to answer your question as a still active believing member in the gospel of Jesus Christ that is contained in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I believe the Church is in danger of going into a rapid period of decline if nothing changes because some major current Church practices and policies are creating huge confusion and pain in many members hearts.  This includes LGTBQ members lack of place in any way in the Church that brings them a life of happiness.  This issue is exacerbated by the joy and happiness that many queer members are finding by following the desires of their hearts and the pain and suffering of those who try to follow current Church guidance.  Next is the position of women in the Church.  No good reason or guidance as to why women can never be the ultimate authority in a ward, stake, area or the general Church has been provided.  All the efforts to appease women such as changes in the temple ceremony and having wives of general authorities speak with them has not addressed the basic concerns of many women about patriarchy.  The Church's treatment of abuse victims by only providing lawyers to guide bishops and the non disclosure efforts of the Church on abuse cases is offensive to many when learned about.  The current efforts of general authorities to rewrite Church history by including things not taught for a hundred years as if they were always taught is just to obvious.  Also the explanation of many of these new/old facts is so shadowed with a slant justifying the facts as faith promoting rather than troubling that many people see right through it when they do their own research and lose trust in leaders.  The statement by general authorities and local leaders that all is well in Zion when many are experiencing just the opposite also creates a loss of trust.

If you and I are correct about the coming decline, I believe the Church has a history of changing when it realizes its very existence is in danger as evidenced by polygamy and the priesthood ban.  I believe all of the above will lead the Church to a point where its existence is threatened and changes will be made that will allow the Church to continue.  I believe this is how God works and why He wins in the end.  There is enough honesty, revelation and charity in the souls of Church leaders to make the needed changes when there is no longer any options.  Church leaders will come to realized that God has given them all the evidence they need by the effects of their teachings and doctrinal interpretations that lack some elements of eternal truths.

I have no idea how long this will take but I do have faith that it will happen.  I hope it is in the next 20 years so I can see it in my lifetime.

Now let the attacks and slicing and deicing begin along with tangential arguments to get us off topic. 

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

[kimpearson]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi. I liked the insights in your post. Thank you. I have a very simple question regarding this section of your post. What are these "things not taught for a hundred years" that are now being taught?  Would you mind providing some examples of them for this outside insider who simply isn't sure to what you are referring? Thanks again.

• 4 versions of Joseph Smith 1st vision.
• Joseph Smith using a seer stone and putting it into a hat then putting his head in the hat to see words that represented what was written on the gold plates.
• Early Church leaders such as Brigham Young teaching things as doctrine that have been changed.
• Joseph Smith had 20 to 30 wives.
• Joseph married a girl who was 14.
• Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham was not a translation in the sense of Joseph looking at characters and interpreting those characters as translation occurs today.

Have you read the gospel topic essays?  These are many of the topics I am referring too.   Here is the link.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays?lang=eng

Many members of the Church have never read these essays or even realize they exist.  They are hard to find on the Church website.  I was born in 1961 and my parents in 1913 and 1918.  We all come from LDS pioneer stock.   I never heard any of these things taught openly by leaders until the last 10 years.  My parents never had heard of them when I asked them about these issues toward the end of their lives.  My mom lived to be 100 years old and died in 2018 and still insisted these points were not true as she had never heard them.  I have brothers and sisters who still to this day tell me I am badly misinformed when I bring some of these topics up.

[kimpearson]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Throughout the Book of Mormon, the Church experiences setbacks and disruptions, followed in most cases by periods of great prosperity. I get the impression sometimes that our critics have never really read the book all that carefully ...

Please reflect on what the setbacks and disruptions to the Church were.   Mormon pointed them out over and over again and it wasn't the members who left the Church.  It was pride, expensive clothes and ignoring the poor going on among the active members of the Church.  Please study the following from Alma 4 and tell me what caused the Church's decline and what caused the Church to prosper again.  Hint, its all about the active members of the Church and not those who left or questioned the Church.

6 And it came to pass in the eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding ^ariches, and their ^bfine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their ^cindustry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly ^dapparel.

7 Now this was the cause of much affliction to Alma, yea, and to many of the people whom Alma had consecrated to be ^ateachers, and ^bpriests, and ^celders over the church; yea, many of them were sorely grieved for the wickedness which they saw had begun to be among their people.

8 For they saw and beheld with great sorrow that the people of the church began to be lifted up in the pride of their eyes, and to set their ^ahearts upon riches and upon the vain things of the world, that they began to be scornful, one towards another, and they began to persecute those that did ^bnot believe according to their own will and pleasure.

9 And thus, in this eighth year of the reign of the judges, there began to be great ^acontentions among the people of the church; yea, there were ^benvyings, and ^cstrife, and malice, and persecutions, and pride, even to exceed the pride of those who did not belong to the church of God.

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

"Historical and doctrinal concerns" play no substantial role in causing LDS people to leave the Church, except for a very small group of angry malcontents.  What is noteworthy to me is how poorly informed that group is.

YOu simply are wrong here and out of touch.  And typically arrogant and dismissive.  I had thought that you might have more empathy based on your last post.  But your use of calling such malcontents and poorly informed is enlightening and demonstrates part of the problem.  My experience with those who are leaving over historical and doctrinal concerns is their knowledge of such issues run the spectrum from some that are not well informed to others who are highly informed.  I would guess my interaction with such is much higher and better informed about this than yours.  But as I mentioned to others, continue to blithely dismiss the impact of the disaffections over the LDS truth claims and continue to bleed good members.  It is a losing battle though pretty much either way. A medium examination of the LDS truth claims it all it takes for them to crumble for most people that are able to use critical skills.

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Which is exactly the point:  The Methodist Church is in full collapse, as are many mainline churches.  Sociologists have found that the reasons have nothing to do with historical and doctrinal controversies of any kind. 

As I noted your comparison with main stream Christian sects and the LDS Church is flawed mainly because of the fantastic and claims made by the LDS Church a number which are easily falsifiable. Of course I think any serious look at early Christianity will result in a lot of holes as well.

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

The loss of interest in religion and religious observance is generic in Western culture, having nothing to do with the imaginary causes you have enumerated for the LDS Church.  The LDS Church is suffering from much the same problems all churches suffer from, and for the same reasons.  This is a concomitant of modernism, and it is indeed a drag on LDS growth.  There is no magic formula which can turn that tendency around.

The LDS church is not immune from these things.  And the loss of membership for it is aggravated evenfurther by its truth and doctrinal claims that can easily be refuted. Whether you want to believe it or not, tens of thousands per year leave over these issues.  Here is something from the Church to back this up:

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_R28e.pdf

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

More to the point, even when the woke mainstream Christian Churches make every effort to be accommodating to politically and culturally correct demands, they fall apart even faster than they had been collapsing.  Get woke, go broke.  It has been precisely the more conservative and fundamentalist Christian Churches which have managed to survive far longer than their mainstream sisters.

It is, but it is deserving of far more serious engagement with sociological analysis and conclusions, which I have frequently cited on this board in the past.

 

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

What were you saying about confirmation bias?

We all sniffer from it to one degree or another.  Difference between you and me is when confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance caused me to shrink from challenging what I held and though was true for 52 year of my life, I was willing to plow through. You may have done the same and reached a different conclusion however.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

It seems that there could be something in between these two.

I’m genuinely interested in what you mean by this 

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Your examples are extreme black and white thinking really.

I agree. My comment wasn’t intended to be an exhaustive list. If I spent more then 30 seconds thinking about it, I’m sure I could come up with better things. My point was that changes the church should make are based on what mindset and presupposed beliefs one has.

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Fether

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Ironically the best way for children and teenagers (particularly males ones) to need less virtual experience is physical exercise of any sort. It doesn’t kill the interest if there is one but it puts it in the hobby category.

I put a lot of the blame for this on education. I don’t know how to fix it but we put kids in an environment in school where they are accomplishing virtually nothing. They are retreading the work of others and your grade is just a matter of ticking off a few boxes. Many video games fall into the same category but it is relaxing by comparison because any setbacks (bad grades) are only temporary.

I admit I have a hard time taking Ben Shapiro seriously when he suggests people unplug and get back to reality considering his whole life is informational and largely online and his attempts to show him in reality often end like this:

That is a guy who has no idea what lumber is for or how to make anything out of it.

”I would like a piece of wood and would you please bag that for me?”

It is not just him. It reminds me of other pics of self-declared ‘manly men’ who just aren’t. One that sticks out in my mind is a guy showing his work shed and you could tell just by looking at the impractical setup, the unrealistic cleanliness, and the obvious safety hazards that none of it had ever been used for anything.

So you could beat up Ben Shapiro…

 

Could you beat up Joe Rogan though? 👀

[ttribe]

14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

"Historical and doctrinal concerns" play no substantial role in causing LDS people to leave the Church, except for a very small group of angry malcontents.  What is noteworthy to me is how poorly informed that group is.

Well, good gosh golly, Robert!  I'm so glad you are here to inform those of us who thought we might have left because of "Historical and doctrinal concerns" what we really left for! Or, if not, that I'm just part of a "very small group of angry malcontents" who are "poorly informed!" Without you, I am utterly lost.

Please, Robert, tell me all about why I really left. Surely, you know better than I do.

Edited January 18, 2022 by ttribe

[SteveO]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We had an Elder serve in our ward about three years ago. After a lesson in my home one night, he commented that he had no real-life experiences to share when teaching because, before his mission, he'd never had a real life. I asked him what he meant, and he said his only memories were of gaming and 'binge-watching' television. Sad. He said he'd gone from thinking he had the best parents in the world to thinking he had the worst.

At least he realised the nature of his situation.

Part of my mission prep class is preparing our future missionaries to 'wake up from the Matrix'. Even the best ones are used to escaping virtually multiple times per day.

What I’m getting at is that I fear the metaverse, and other forms of virtual reality will give people a form of satisfaction and fulfillment that can be found within the realm of active religious participation.  
 

My wife is in a few LDS women’s groups on Facebook or whatever platform, and there’s more than a few (small majority?) of just complaining about how their husbands are just not motivated to be active or engaged in much of anything, to say nothing of the church.  Videogames are usually mentioned in every post.  I suspect porn is another one that nobody likes to admit.  It seems like the “historical reasons” cited for people leaving the church and other groups, is playing a small part compared to the immense distractions that are available.

I think it’s why politics is so toxic as well.  People find “saviors” in politicians (on both sides).  There’s just other outlets now as opposed to religion, except the alternatives aren’t good for the body or mind…mass psychosis.

[pogi]

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

Of course it does not have to do with those things for the Methodist Church.  They have none of those difficult issues to deal with. This seems pretty obvious.

Can you show me that membership in our church is declining any faster than organized Christian religion in general?

If the Church's decline was predominantly attributed to these "difficult' issues that you suggest, then we would expect the same fall-out that we are seeing in organized religion in general plus a substantially greater fall-out on top of that from these uniquely "difficult" issues facing the church. 

If the decline is pretty much on-par with the rest of organized religion in Christianity however, then how can you attribute the decline in our church to these uniquely "difficult" issues that our church is facing and not to what the rest of organized religion is dealing with described below:

5 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I think generally in the West people do not want religion because they are convinced that they are spiritual, and that is enough. They especially don't want religion that makes any demands of them or upholds Biblical Christian principles. They don't want anything to restrict their behaviour which is essentially self centred... People in the West don't like the concept of obedience, which has always been a principle of the Christian church.

 

[ttribe]

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

Can you show me that membership in our church is declining any faster than organized Christian religion in general?

If the Church's decline was predominantly attributed to these "difficult' issues that you suggest, then we would expect the same fall-out that we are seeing in organized religion in general plus a substantially greater fall-out on top of that from these uniquely "difficult" issues facing the church. 

If the decline is pretty much on-par with the rest of organized religion in Christianity however, then how can you attribute the decline in our church to these uniquely "difficult" issues that our church is facing and not to what the rest of organized religion is dealing with described below:

 

One, membership in the church isn't 'declining.' Its rate of growth is declining. There's a world of difference.

Two, if you look at the blog linked in the OP, you'll see that the predicted decline is an extrapolation and is the direct result of the difference between the declining growth rate and an estimate for the resignation rate from the church.

Three, the comparison you are suggesting could only be done if the record-keeping between the LDS Church and other "organized Christian religion[s]" was substantially similar.

Those three obstacles have to be overcome if you actually want to have an intellectually honest discussion about a comparison of growth (and decline) factors affecting the different religious organizations. In the meantime, you can certainly attack the blog calculation's assumptions, but everything else is supposition.

Edited January 18, 2022 by ttribe

[rodheadlee]

13 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Never mind. 

I get a down vote for saying never mind? 

That's cool give me another one Teancum.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

So you could beat up Ben Shapiro…

 

Could you beat up Joe Rogan though? 👀

No idea. Does he know how to fight?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

One, membership in the church isn't 'declining.' It's rate of growth is declining. There's a world of difference.

Two, if you look at the blog linked in the OP, you'll see that the predicted decline is an extrapolation and is the direct result of the difference between the declining growth rate and an estimate for the resignation rate from the church.

Three, the comparison you are suggesting could only be done if the record-keeping between the LDS Church and other "organized Christian religion[s]" was substantially similar.

Those three obstacles have to be overcome if you actually want to have an intellectually honest discussion about a comparison of growth (and decline) factors affecting the different religious organizations. In the meantime, you can certainly attack the blog calculation's assumptions, but everything else is supposition.

Why can't we compare one estimate to another?  It is not like the blog is based on anything but "extrapolations" and "estimates" anyway...so, why the insistence of precise and exact comparisons?

How about we base the comparison on on Pew research, does that seem fair?   The LDS church seems to be declining at a much slower rate than other organized Christian religions.  How can we then conclude that the decline we are seeing in our Church isn't related to the general loss of interest in religion that we see in society at large, especially among the younger generations.

Quote

The share of Americans who describe themselves as Mormons has held steady at 2% over the past decade.

In Pew Research Center telephone surveys conducted in 2018 and 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians when asked about their religion, down 12 percentage points over the past decade.  Meanwhile, the religiously unaffiliated share of the population, consisting of people who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009.

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/

Hmmm...it seems that this blog is not taking in the big picture of what is happening in Christianity and organized religion in general and makes it seem like our decline is not attributed to what we are seeing in society at large but must be primarily about our history.  Why? That seems like a critical error.  Again, our declines seem to be relatively moderate comparatively speaking - our modest growth rate can't account for a steady 2% self-reported affiliation over a decade while the rest of Christianity is dropping like flies at 12% lower rates. 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by pogi

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Well, good gosh golly, Robert!  I'm so glad you are here to inform those of us who thought we might have left because of "Historical and doctrinal concerns" what we really left for! Or, if not, that I'm just part of a "very small group of angry malcontents" who are "poorly informed!" Without you, I am utterly lost.

Please, Robert, tell me all about why I really left. Surely, you know better than I do.

You might try carefully reading what I actually wrote, ttribe, rather than elevating yourself to the be all and end all of judgment.  It would help a lot if you could avail yourself of independent sociological analysis of those who leave religion in general and also specifically the LDS Church.  If you could step away, even momentarily, from your emotional responses, and make a calm judgment about why people in fact leave.  I repeat:  There is indeed a small group of very poorly informed malcontents who do leave the LDS faith for doctrinal or historical reasons, and this is also true of non-LDS groups.  Dr Bart Ehrman, who is well-informed (love that guy), left evangelicalism for just those reasons.  I have no problem with such thoughtful judgments.  I do have a problem with the phony baloney nonsense of the Jeremy Runnells of the world.  Often there is very little difference between the facts known to the faithful Mormon and his anti-Mormon counterpart.  Sunday school simply cannot prepare us for real discussion of the doctrinal and historical questions.  Everyone needs to acknowledge that up front.

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

We all sniffer from it [sic] to one degree or another. ...

Best line of the day, right there!  You heard it here first, folks!   Me?  I do my best to try to ease as much sniffering as I can!  

Edited January 18, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

I get a down vote for saying never mind? 

That's cool give me another one Teancum.

Oh, Teancum's just like that mon Capitain.  I take his downvotes as badges of honor.  Look, see, here comes one now ...  (To be fair, is it possible you were editing the post as he was downvoting the original?)

Edited January 18, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

YOu simply are wrong here and out of touch.  And typically arrogant and dismissive.  I had thought that you might have more empathy based on your last post.  But your use of calling such malcontents and poorly informed is enlightening and demonstrates part of the problem.  My experience with those who are leaving over historical and doctrinal concerns is their knowledge of such issues run the spectrum from some that are not well informed to others who are highly informed.  I would guess my interaction with such is much higher and better informed about this than yours.  But as I mentioned to others, continue to blithely dismiss the impact of the disaffections over the LDS truth claims and continue to bleed good members.  It is a losing battle though pretty much either way. A medium examination of the LDS truth claims it all it takes for them to crumble for most people that are able to use critical skills.

Yet it is precisely the critical skills of a scholar which are needed to make judgments in this controversial area.  I have been studying anti-Mormon literature and speaking with anit-Mormons for the past 60 years.  Some have been close friends.  They often make precipitate judgments not justified by the facts or logic, which it is their right to do -- even if unwise.  Still, the average person leaving religion in general and the LDS Church in particular has nothing to do with doctrinal and/or historical issues.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

As I noted your comparison with main stream Christian sects and the LDS Church is flawed mainly because of the fantastic and claims made by the LDS Church a number which are easily falsifiable. Of course I think any serious look at early Christianity will result in a lot of holes as well.

The LDS church is not immune from these things.  And the loss of membership for it is aggravated evenfurther by its truth and doctrinal claims that can easily be refuted. Whether you want to believe it or not, tens of thousands per year leave over these issues.

My point was precisely that "the LDS church is not immune from these things."  You seem to have missed the point that other churches are bleeding members even faster than the LDS Church, yet are not bedeviled by the kind of "fantastic" doctrinal & historical issues which are front and center for you.  You have an intellectual disconnect here which is very telling.  You have created an imaginary scenario not backed by sociological analysis.  Direct comparison with other churches shows the deep flaw in your case.

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

  Here is something from the Church to back this up:

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_R28e.pdf

I too can prepare a recommendation to one of the Brethren.  That does not give it any sort of official sanction or status.  It is merely my opinion, hopefully backed by substantive data and analysis.  In any case, this is not an LDS Church document.

[Robert F. Smith]

15 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Best line of the day, right there!  You heard it here first, folks!   Me?  I do my best to try to ease as much sniffering as I can!  

Are we talking Omicron?

[why me]

The original post is a blast from the past. It brought back memories of the good old days on this board. We have seen many posts about the decline of the lds church on this board from critics. The original post also writes about the hidden history and its impact on members who are bound to discover it. Amazing memories flowed back to me of countless posts from the past about hidden church history. , which really wasn't that hidden if one read books published by the church publisher. 

I just want to say thank you for the past memories I have experienced from the original poster and the comments that followed.

[SteveO]

26 minutes ago, why me said:

The original post is a blast from the past. It brought back memories of the good old days on this board. We have seen many posts about the decline of the lds church on this board from critics. The original post also writes about the hidden history and its impact on members who are bound to discover it. Amazing memories flowed back to me of countless posts from the past about hidden church history. , which really wasn't that hidden if one read books published by the church publisher. 

I just want to say thank you for the past memories I have experienced from the original poster and the comments that followed.

This.  Been hearing it since I was a wee lad just getting his start on this board…20 years ago.

Any day now the church will crumble into oblivion…any day now.

[T-Shirt]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

 But as I mentioned to others, continue to blithely dismiss the impact of the disaffections over the LDS truth claims and continue to bleed good members. 

I don't think anyone dismisses this, it is cause for concern.  However it is not out of concern that the Church might collapse, but concern for those leaving.  While I agree that more can be done to help those who are struggling with historical issues, I think it is naïve to think that most who leave the Church are leaving for these reasons.  I believe that if you were to take the Ward list from any random Ward, identified those who do not come to Church and polled them on these historical issues, you would find that 90% or more will have never heard of them.  Those whom I have talked to, who have left the Church over these things, have been badly misinformed.

Quote

A medium examination of the LDS truth claims it all it takes for them to crumble for most people that are able to use critical skills.

This is a common attack from those who have left the Church, claim that the faithful members have no critical thinking skills.  I see it the exact opposite.  In my experience those who have left have been badly deceived and mislead and did not know how to deal with the conflicting information.  I think sharp critical thinking skills have a lot to do with why people, who face these issues, stay in the Church.

Quote

As I noted your comparison with main stream Christian sects and the LDS Church is flawed mainly because of the fantastic and claims made by the LDS Church a number which are easily falsifiable.

Classic confirmation bias and vastly overstated.

Quote

The LDS church is not immune from these things.

Of course they're not.

Quote

  And the loss of membership for it is aggravated evenfurther by its truth and doctrinal claims that can easily be refuted.

More confirmation bias?

Quote

 

Whether you want to believe it or not, tens of thousands per year leave over these issues.  Here is something from the Church to back this up:

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_R28e.pdf

 

This is not from the Church.

Edited January 18, 2022 by T-Shirt

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You might try carefully reading what I actually wrote, ttribe, rather than elevating yourself to the be all and end all of judgment.  It would help a lot if you could avail yourself of independent sociological analysis of those who leave religion in general and also specifically the LDS Church.  If you could step away, even momentarily, from your emotional responses, and make a calm judgment about why people in fact leave.  I repeat:  There is indeed a small group of very poorly informed malcontents who do leave the LDS faith for doctrinal or historical reasons, and this is also true of non-LDS groups.  Dr Bart Ehrman, who is well-informed (love that guy), left evangelicalism for just those reasons.  I have no problem with such thoughtful judgments.  I do have a problem with the phony baloney nonsense of the Jeremy Runnells of the world.  Often there is very little difference between the facts known to the faithful Mormon and his anti-Mormon counterpart.  Sunday school simply cannot prepare us for real discussion of the doctrinal and historical questions.  Everyone needs to acknowledge that up front.

Oh, good grief, spare me your intellectual superiority act.  I did no such elevating of myself to the level you suggested, nor was my response born from emotionalism. That's just you engaging in your standard dismissiveness.

If all you are saying is that more people 'leave' the church for the exact same reasons they leave other churches (e.g. don't want to go to church, don't want to live the tenants, fall out of the habit, etc.), then you are saying nothing interesting. For those of us who served missions, married in the temple, held numerous callings, gave freely of our time, talents, money, etc. and who left for reasons other than the same ol' religious drifting endemic to any large society, then there is a great deal of interest in what we perceive as an increase in the number of people in our wards, neighborhoods, towns, etc. who are also leaving (at least partly) due to doctrinal and historical issues, anecdotal as it may be.  The fact is there is little to no hard data to measure the 'leaving' variable in such a way as to tease out the matter. Nevertheless, your dehumanizing, hand-waving, dismissive approach does a disservice to you, LDS apologetics and the church in general.  In short, you help no one with such condescension.