Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in decline?

[Navidad]

20 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Best line of the day, right there!  You heard it here first, folks!   Me?  I do my best to try to ease as much sniffering as I can!  

I prefer Joseph Smith's line in a letter to his wife from the Liberty jail. He wasn't apparently a big fan of wimbling. I wonder how wimbling relates to sniffering?

[ttribe]

13 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes, you have to follow your own path. 

So, just to be clear, you would tell each one of my hypothetical people that they should NOT trust their research and should trust their faith tradition's guidance on spirituality, instead?  And you would do that even though you don't agree with those faith traditions?  Do I have that correct?

[Navidad]

On 1/18/2022 at 9:25 AM, pogi said:

Can you show me that membership in our church is declining any faster than organized Christian religion in general?

Hi my friend. I would simply offer that the Methodist church is not "bleeding" members. It is currently dividing itself into a mainstream branch and a "restorational" branch. In its history Methodism has done this on a number of previous occasions. That is why there are so many Methodist groups, as there are many Mormon groups. You and others on this forum may be confusing Methodism with the United Methodist Church. That is like confusing Mormonism with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Methodism is just fine. The United Methodist Church will come out of this smaller, but that is irrelevant. Methodism in its many variations is alive and well.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

15 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Our job is the proclaim the gospel and even if the people reject, it is a win because our testimony does work towards the condemnation of the world.

I don't understand what this means? Would you expand a bit please? How does a testimony of a Latter-day Saint condemn the world? And if it does, why is that a good thing?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Navidad

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Why would it give you comfort to know you may have declining growth even though other sects do?

I don't know what you are talking about.  I am simply suggesting that our decline is more likely due to larger changes we are seeing in society and do not reflect as much the unique "sticky issues" of the church the "easily falsifiable" truth claims of the church. 

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

No I can't.  But why does that matter? If my neighbor's house is on fire should I be ok if mine is as well?

Once again, I don't know why you think I am ok with anything.  If you are seriously asking why it matters to assess and understand the source of hemorrhage before we try and fix the problem, then you are clearly here to just mess with us.  Why would it not matter? 

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

I think your logic is flawed.  

How so?

You seem to only care about the historical issues and easily falsifiable truth claims.  That is mostly all you really talk about and point out in this thread.  It seems to me that your biased opinion is not helpful and your bleeding desire to see us fall over these issues is palpable bias on your part.  You can't see clearly to assess what is happening here - most importantly, you don't give a crap about the church so don't pretend like you are here to help us understand the problem so that we can save the church.  You are here to stir up discontent and point out the many flaws of history and truth claims - you don't care about the bigger picture.  See below for evidence of this:

On 1/17/2022 at 11:16 AM, Teancum said:

I also think long term they are fighting a losing  battle.  The historical issues and truth claims are easily researched and the plethora of problems so readily obvious it is easy for an investigator to do some homework and readily run away from the idea of joining the church. And we already see the church is bleeding many devote, committed, smart and economically well off member because of the almost impossible task of defending the sticky issues. 

On 1/17/2022 at 1:08 PM, Teancum said:

IWho could have known how damaging free access to information would be to the church.

On 1/17/2022 at 1:39 PM, Teancum said:

Or maybe there is a problem with the product.

On 1/17/2022 at 5:24 PM, Teancum said:

the Church narrative is under heavy scrutiny and the the defenders so a poor job dealing with historical and doctrinal concerns.

Of course it does not have to do with those things for the Methodist Church.  They have none of those difficult issues to deal with. This seems pretty obvious.

On 1/17/2022 at 5:25 PM, Teancum said:

I think the market has changed and I think you have a major problem with the product. Hard to sell something that is so clearly patently false with all the  info out there.

On 1/18/2022 at 8:13 AM, Teancum said:

It is a losing battle though pretty much either way. A medium examination of the LDS truth claims it all it takes for them to crumble for most people that are able to use critical skills.

As I noted your comparison with main stream Christian sects and the LDS Church is flawed mainly because of the fantastic and claims made by the LDS Church a number which are easily falsifiable. 

19 hours ago, Teancum said:

We left or other reason than our painful research caused us to question that which we had loved and were so devoted to.  Whatever.  I am quite fine with seeing how the TBMs approach this. It is enlightening. If their view is the majority then we can watch Mormonism crumble.

I'm sorry, but I don't see it that way.  There are much larger societal issues at play here but all you care to do is highlight the scratch on the leg and ignore the bleeding artery.  This is not a problem that our church alone can fix because we are only a tiny and not significantly influential fraction of society.  If the problem was primarily from within the church, we could have more influence there and potentially fix the bleed, but the problem is bigger than the church.  The decline and fall that you should be concerned about is the fall of society which is happening before our eyes.  Our church may decline in numbers but we will weather the storm.  Society, on the other hand, is without foundation when they abandon their God.  So it would be unwise of you to pretend like this is our problem alone, and not yours.  No, this is your problem too. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

44 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi my friend. I would simply offer that the Methodist church is not "bleeding" members. It is currently dividing itself into a mainstream branch and a "restorational" branch. In its history Methodism has done this on a number or previous occasions. That is why there are so many Methodist groups, as there are many Mormon groups. You and others on this forum may be confusing Methodism with the United Methodist Church. That is like confusing the The Mormonism with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Methodism is just fine. The United Methodist Church will come out of this smaller, but that is irrelevant. Methodism in its many variations is alive and well.

Hi Navidad, you may be confusing me for someone else.  I am not singling out the Methodist religion, I am suggesting that all of organized religion in Christianity is shrinking.   I don't doubt that Methodism is alive and well, as is our church, but I don't think either church is immune from trends that we are seeing in society. 

Quote

 

The share of Americans who describe themselves as Mormons has held steady at 2% over the past decade.

In Pew Research Center telephone surveys conducted in 2018 and 2019, 65% of American adults describe themselves as Christians when asked about their religion, down 12 percentage points over the past decade.  Meanwhile, the religiously unaffiliated share of the population, consisting of people who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular,” now stands at 26%, up from 17% in 2009.

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/

 

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I don't know what you are talking about.  I am simply suggesting that our decline is more likely due to larger changes we are seeing in society and do not reflect as much the unique "sticky issues" of the church the "easily falsifiable" truth claims of the church. 

Ok.  Sure there are other issues. It is not all the church claims. There are social issue, etc.  But the church historical issues are also part of the problem don't you think?

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Once again, I don't know why you think I am ok with anything.  If you are seriously asking why it matters to assess and understand the source of hemorrhage before we try and fix the problem, then you are clearly here to just mess with us.  Why would it not matter? 

I am just here to mess with you all?  Oh please.

 

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

How so?

You seem to only care about the historical issues and easily falsifiable truth claims.  That is mostly all you really talk about and point out in this thread.

Yes I do. THe LDS Church stands or falls on these issues.  

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

t seems to me that your biased opinion is not helpful and your bleeding desire to see us fall over these issues is palpable bias on your part. 

My biased opinions? Hmm ok. Really if you guys don't think this is a problem then A ok.  Maybe I am all wet.  

Are you biased at all?

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

 

You can't see clearly to assess what is happening here - most importantly, you don't give a crap about the church so don't pretend like you are here to help us understand the problem so that we can save the church.  You are here to stir up discontent and point out the many flaws of history and truth claims - you don't care about the bigger picture. 

Ahh am I hurting your feelings today?  But no you really do not know what I care about and don't in my life outside this silly message board.  Do you want an echo chamber here Pogi? 

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

 

See below for evidence of this:

 

Well yea.  I think the claims of Mormonism have so many large holes, big enough to drive a truck through, that it is amazing that anyone who seriously explores them still believes them. Like one poster here said, it has to be based on revelation from the HG, not based on intellect.  And that is pretty telling to me. 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I'm sorry, but I don't see it that way.  There are much larger societal issues at play here but all you care to do is highlight the scratch on the leg and ignore the bleeding artery.  This is not a problem that our church alone can fix because we are only a tiny and not significantly influential fraction of society.  If the problem was primarily from within the church, we could have more influence there and potentially fix the bleed, but the problem is bigger than the church.  The decline and fall that you should be concerned about is the fall of society which is happening before our eyes.  Our church may decline in numbers but we will weather the storm.  Society, on the other hand, is without foundation when they abandon their God.  So it would be unwise of you to pretend like this is our problem alone, and not yours.  No, this is your problem too. 

I think moving beyond what religion thinks is truth may ultimately be better for society than relying on ancient "scripture" and self proclaimed prophets that say God is telling them to tell us what to do.  We don't need a god to find out way.  And in fact "gods" have causes lots of grief for humans for thousands of years. If you need a god to be moral that reflect poorly on you.

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

I was making a joke

I'm kind of slow.  Forgive me.

[Craig Speechly]

The proof is in the pudding:  I just celebrated the 29th anniversary of my 39th birthday.  I'm old enough to remember a time when I hadn't heard of nor knew a single person who had left the church, let alone entire families.  Now I am aware of dozens and dozens who are no longer affiliated with the church. 

I am not aware of anything that Salt Lake could do to curb this trend. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yes I do. THe LDS Church stands or falls on these issues.  

I agree.  That is why we will weather the storm.  We are built on a solid foundation.

You seem to readily admit here that you are just trying to tear us down.  Keep hacking away.

The fundamental truth claims are not easily "falsifiable" as you claim.  Why do you think that science backs away from faith claims?  Because they can't prove or disprove them.  They are matters of "faith".  Hacking away at these issues is never going to fall the tree.  We will not fall because of our foundational truth claims are proven false.  If our church is in decline, it is more a reflection of society than a reflection of the church.

Do you disagree that the church can't change what is coming, because it is systemically happening throughout society and not just the church?

I think you are right that something is going to fall...but it is not the church.  

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Do you want an echo chamber here Pogi? 

No, but I'd prefer a fair assessment.

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I am just here to mess with you all?  Oh please.

If you are not here to mess with us, then answer the question.   Why wouldn't my question matter?  How could it not be relevant?

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I agree.  That is why we will weather the storm.  We are built on a solid foundation.

If you say so....

1 hour ago, pogi said:

You seem to readily admit here that you are just trying to tear us down.  Keep hacking away.

No not really. I am here to discuss Mormonism.  From a critical view. If this board does not want critics I will be happy to depart.

 

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

The fundamental truth claims are not easily "falsifiable" as you claim. 

I think a number of them are.  BoM history, BoA, JS and others prophecies, polygamy, priesthood ban, lamanites and DNA.  

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

 

Why do you think that science backs away from faith claims?  Because they can't prove or disprove them.  They are matters of "faith".  Hacking away at these issues is never going to fall the tree.  We will not fall because of our foundational truth claims are proven false.  If our church is in decline, it is more a reflection of society than a reflection of the church.

Faith is not a trump card.  It is a crouch that religion uses when it cannot provide any evidence for fantastic claims.  It is not the end all of end all.  Faith is a weak argument.  It is not the most noble attribute that some think it is.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Do you disagree that the church can't change what is coming, because it is systemically happening throughout society and not just the church?

Not sure I follow.

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I think you are right that something is going to fall...but it is not the church.

 

I do not think the LDS Church is going away. But I think its influence is small and will become smaller.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

 

No, but I'd prefer a fair assessment.

If you are not here to mess with us, then answer the question.   Why wouldn't my question matter?  How could it not be relevant?

Sorry but in the back and forth I am not sure which question you want me to answer.

[kimpearson]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:18 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

You'll find no argument from me that those things did serious damage to the ancient Church! Add to that list wars and political strifes, too, sometimes caused (or worsened) by dissenters from the faith.

Show me one place in the Book of Mormon where wars, political strife and dissenters caused a decline in the Church.  Government structure yes Church no.  In fact events like political strife, wars and dissenters are mentioned numerous times as leading to the Church growing and prospering.

[kimpearson]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:20 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Scholars have been looking at this phenomenon for decades and have come to some secure conclusions based on hard data.  We have discussed this repeatedly on this board with full citations.  Malcontents have little stomach for that and so dismiss it out of hand, as you do.  I have noticed also that such malcontents greatly fear substantive discussion of the actual issues, preferring instead to condemn and have done with it.

Please provide this data for why members leave the LDS Church not other churches from the last 10 years.

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Show me one place in the Book of Mormon where wars, political strife and dissenters caused a decline in the Church.  Government structure yes Church no.  In fact events like political strife, wars and dissenters are mentioned numerous times as leading to the Church growing and prospering.

Maybe you forgot how the Book of Mormon ended. 

[kimpearson]

19 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course you will, and you have a right to do so.  However, anecdotal evidence is not real evidence.

How about four or five thousand personal stories related to me about why they left.

1st most common reason - Loss of trust in leaders because of historical facts they had never heard of before.

2nd most common reason - Church's treatment of LGTBQ members.

3rd most common reason - Never really believed but tried to do everything they were promised would bring a testimony.  Prayers for years, mission service, studying the scriptures and temple attendance with no response from God through the Holy Ghost.

4th most common reason - Attitude of members being better than nonmembers but yet these same members committed horrible actions such as dishonesty in business, spouse and child abuse or secret vices such as pornography.

 

[kimpearson]

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve not seen the video, but I doubt it was intended to be taken seriously. It works for me as satire. I, for one, chuckled when I read about it on here. 

I would invite you sit down with any transgender person and share your laughter and the video with them.  Do you laugh at the Tik Tok videos of people jumping into water with their temple robes on?

Edited January 19, 2022 by kimpearson

[kimpearson]

27 minutes ago, pogi said:

Maybe you forgot how the Book of Mormon ended. 

There is very little mention of the demise of the Church at the end of the Book of Mormon.  Everybody had pretty much left.  The demise was of the Nephite nation not the Church.  Go back earlier to read 4th Nephi and what caused the demise of the Church.

24 And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in ^apride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.

25 And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more ^acommon among them.

26 And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up ^achurches unto themselves to get ^bgain, and began to deny the true church of Christ.

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

The proof is in the pudding:  I just celebrated the 29th anniversary of my 39th birthday.  I'm old enough to remember a time when I hadn't heard of nor knew a single person who had left the church, let alone entire families.  Now I am aware of dozens and dozens who are no longer affiliated with the church. 

I am not aware of anything that Salt Lake could do to curb this trend. 

I have the same experience.  I knew people who were less active, but no one who could be called a ex-mormon by today's standard.  I was home from my mission for about a year when I heard of a RM who had left the church and had become agnostic.  This was the first time I had heard of such a thing, and it shocked me.  Times have changed.

[Vanguard]

1 minute ago, sunstoned said:

I have the same experience.  I knew people who were less active, but no one who could be called a ex-mormon by today's standard.  I was home from my mission for about a year when I heard of a RM who had left the church and had become agnostic.  This was the first time I had heard of such a thing, and it shocked me.  Times have changed.

Indeed they have. I too have experienced so many departures from within my own circle of friends over the years. For me, it is disconcerting though everyone needs to forge their own path. I do not, however, conclude therefore the church is in demise and will become irrelevant. It is not based on numbers for me.

[SkyRock]

Strange that so many claim to have not known of ex Mormons decades ago, when the phenomenon started at the very beginning of the church.   

Even as a child decades ago I knew of people in my circles that had left the church.   My bishop's brother was a former Mormon in the mid seventies.   My best friend's uncle was a former Mormon.  One of my friend's father was excommunicated while I was a young child, then rebaptized when I was a teen, then excommunicated again a decade later. 

My brother was an ex Mormon atheist 40 years ago while our father was stake president.  Half of the active youth in my ward growing up ended up out of the church before the age of 25.

The Church has long had a history of people leaving.  A few claim special status as dissenters who leave for a cause, who seem to want to be unique or special.   Sorry, that just isn't so.   

People who want to leave will justify it however they wish.   

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

The proof is in the pudding:  I just celebrated the 29th anniversary of my 39th birthday.  I'm old enough to remember a time when I hadn't heard of nor knew a single person who had left the church, let alone entire families.  Now I am aware of dozens and dozens who are no longer affiliated with the church. 

I am not aware of anything that Salt Lake could do to curb this trend. 

They were just less public and less vocal.  No internet.

There has been apostasy since the beginning.  In Kirtland the numbers were huge.
In the 40s and 50s you probably wouldn't have known many people who left.  Now they publicly post online that they had their names removed or they wear their excommunication like a badge of honor.

I was in a ward in the 90s where an excommunicated couple moved in and wanted to attend and the Bishop got up and warned the ward that apostates had moved into the ward.  That was one of my first experiences with the situation.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

How about four or five thousand personal stories related to me about why they left.

1st most common reason - Loss of trust in leaders because of historical facts they had never heard of before.

2nd most common reason - Church's treatment of LGTBQ members.

3rd most common reason - Never really believed but tried to do everything they were promised would bring a testimony.  Prayers for years, mission service, studying the scriptures and temple attendance with no response from God through the Holy Ghost.

4th most common reason - Attitude of members being better than nonmembers but yet these same members committed horrible actions such as dishonesty in business, spouse and child abuse or secret vices such as pornography.

Just adding up lots of personal, anecdotal experiences is not the same as doing a scientific sampling of the target population.  Professional pollsters attempt to remove emotion and prejudice from the surveys they do by careful wording of questions.  Sociologists cross-check their work with other scholars both in real time and historically, so as to get the most assured results.  The trends can be very interesting and informative, but they seldom play into apriori assumptions.

The Enlightenment has had far-reaching effects, which are still reverberating in Western culture.  We haven't seen the end of it.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Please provide this data for why members leave the LDS Church not other churches from the last 10 years.

I don't have the energy just now to regurgitate the data I have previously supplied here, with full documentation.  In any case, looking at just the last decade will not give us any sort of legitimate trends.  I always urge that we use charts which go back at least to 1950, when there were only a million Mormons, and most of those in the USA.

Moreover, the LDS Church is not really different than other religious organizations in all respects.  The similarities far outweigh the differences.  Died in the wool Mormons have a hard time accepting that reality.  They don't want to think of themselves as just another denomination.

[MrShorty]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

How about four or five thousand personal stories related to me about why they left.

1st most common reason - Loss of trust in leaders because of historical facts they had never heard of before.

2nd most common reason - Church's treatment of LGTBQ members.

3rd most common reason - Never really believed but tried to do everything they were promised would bring a testimony.  Prayers for years, mission service, studying the scriptures and temple attendance with no response from God through the Holy Ghost.

4th most common reason - Attitude of members being better than nonmembers but yet these same members committed horrible actions such as dishonesty in business, spouse and child abuse or secret vices such as pornography.

 

I wish I could refer directly to Jana Riess and Ben Knowles Next Mormons Survey, but I am limited to whatever I can find online (I read it as an audiobook checked out from the library, so difficult to go back and refer to directly). With that disclaimer, one source claims these were Riess and Knowle's NMS top ten reasons for leaving:

1. “I could no longer reconcile my personal values and priorities with those of the Church” (38%)
2. “I stopped believing there was one true church” (36.5%)
3. “I did not trust the Church leadership to tell the truth surrounding controversial or historical issues” (31%)
4. “I felt judged or misunderstood” (30%)
5. “I drifted away from Mormonism” (26%)
6. “I engaged in behaviors that the Church views as sinful” (23%)
7. “The Church’s positions on LGBT issues” (23%)
8. “The Church’s emphasis on conformity and obedience” (21%)
9. “Lack of historical evidence for the Book of Mormon and/or Book of Abraham” (21%)
10. “The role of women in the Church” (18%)

Comparing the two, and it would seem that @kimpearson's 1 is NMS's 3, kim's 2 is NMS's 7, and kim's 3 and 4 don't seem to readily map onto NMS's top 10 as reported here. Kim's data might be suspect for a variety of reasons, but there does seem to be some overlap with other published data.

Edited January 20, 2022 by MrShorty

[Peacefully]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.allsides.com/news/2022-01-16-0835/teacher-alleges-she-was-fired-not-meowing-back-student-who-identifies-cat

If accurate, it appears she mocks the child so he is upset and leaves, mocks him while he is leaving so the whole class laughs after him.  She is a substitute teacher.  I wouldn’t fire her for not going along with the meow, I would fire her for humiliating the child in front of his peers.

And she thinks there is no problem when the kid leaves the classroom without permission and that it is great she got the class laughing at the kid as he runs away in embarrassment.

I watched it and had the same thoughts.