Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in decline?

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Please provide this data for why members leave the LDS Church not other churches from the last 10 years.

In my experience people leave when they don't want to "conform"  to the organizations rules and standards.

That's the real reason nondenominational "Christian" Churches are increasing.  They want to believe but they don't want to be required to follow any rules whatsoever.
The whole I can believe in Christ but I don't have to live a certain way makes no sense to me.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

Strange that so many claim to have not known of ex Mormons decades ago, when the phenomenon started at the very beginning of the church.   

Even as a child decades ago I knew of people in my circles that had left the church.   My bishop's brother was a former Mormon in the mid seventies.   My best friend's uncle was a former Mormon.  One of my friend's father was excommunicated while I was a young child, then rebaptized when I was a teen, then excommunicated again a decade later. 

My brother was an ex Mormon atheist 40 years ago while our father was stake president.  Half of the active youth in my ward growing up ended up out of the church before the age of 25.

The Church has long had a history of people leaving.  A few claim special status as dissenters who leave for a cause, who seem to want to be unique or special.   Sorry, that just isn't so.   

People who want to leave will justify it however they wish.   

Are you asserting that people only leave because they want to?

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

In my experience people leave when they don't want to "conform"  to the organizations rules and standards.

That's the real reason nondenominational "Christian" Churches are increasing.  They want to believe but they don't want to be required to follow any rules whatsoever.
The whole I can believe in Christ but I don't have to live a certain way makes no sense to me.

Really?  That's the only reason you acknowledge?

[MrShorty]

I was a bit rushed in my previous reply. On further reflection, @kimpearson's #3 might map onto NMS's #1 if you focus on the "inability to reconcile" part, or NMS's #8 if you think kim's data point is mostly about not being given a testimony of conformity. Or maybe it even maps onto #5 where not receiving a testimony probably leads to drifting away.

Kim's #4 might map onto NMS's #8, again if you see Kim's peoples' attitudes as primarily about conformity, or maybe NMS's #4 if you get focused on the judgementalism aspect. In either case, though, the hypocrisy that Kim's people mentioned seems absent from the NMS's top 10. I cannot remember if hypocrisy of members shows up further down the NMS list of questions.

[T-Shirt]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

How about four or five thousand personal stories related to me about why they left.

1st most common reason - Loss of trust in leaders because of historical facts they had never heard of before.

2nd most common reason - Church's treatment of LGTBQ members.

3rd most common reason - Never really believed but tried to do everything they were promised would bring a testimony.  Prayers for years, mission service, studying the scriptures and temple attendance with no response from God through the Holy Ghost.

4th most common reason - Attitude of members being better than nonmembers but yet these same members committed horrible actions such as dishonesty in business, spouse and child abuse or secret vices such as pornography.

 

You actually kept a tally each time you talked to each of these four or five thousand?  Sorry, still not buying it.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Are you asserting that people only leave because they want to?

Really?  That's the only reason you acknowledge?

Not the only.  But a primary one.

Edited January 20, 2022 by JLHPROF

[mrmarklin]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

I wish I could refer directly to Jana Riess and Ben Knowles Next Mormons Survey, but I am limited to whatever I can find online (I read it as an audiobook checked out from the library, so difficult to go back and refer to directly). With that disclaimer, one source claims these were Riess and Knowle's NMS top ten reasons for leaving:

1. “I could no longer reconcile my personal values and priorities with those of the Church” (38%)
2. “I stopped believing there was one true church” (36.5%)
3. “I did not trust the Church leadership to tell the truth surrounding controversial or historical issues” (31%)
4. “I felt judged or misunderstood” (30%)
5. “I drifted away from Mormonism” (26%)
6. “I engaged in behaviors that the Church views as sinful” (23%)
7. “The Church’s positions on LGBT issues” (23%)
8. “The Church’s emphasis on conformity and obedience” (21%)
9. “Lack of historical evidence for the Book of Mormon and/or Book of Abraham” (21%)
10. “The role of women in the Church” (18%)

Comparing the two, and it would seem that @kimpearson's 1 is NMS's 3, kim's 2 is NMS's 7, and kim's 3 and 4 don't seem to readily map onto NMS's top 10 as reported here. Kim's data might be suspect for a variety of reasons, but there does seem to be some overlap with other published data.

I can more or less “buy” this. But it has always been true. Recall my experience in 1967 being told by a GA that of a group of missionaries, 60% would go inactive.   Or leave the Church. AFAIK, that’s probably true today. Reasons are all the above.  Has this increased?  I doubt it. I’ve never lived in a Ward in this church that had more than 30% activity rate. Most were less. 
I agree that growth is slowing. That’s what the study said. It’s probably worse with this pandemic.  It’s something that should be addressed very strongly. My observations of missionary actions and their general supervision are negative. A lot could be done to improve results in the field.  I’m not particularly concerned as I feel the Lord will provide the leadership required for reform. 
 

Lets not be chicken littles. One unverified and untested study should not contribute to the frenzy I see on this forum. 

[ttribe]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not the only.  But a primary one.

Umm, no.

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Umm, no.

Sure.  If it wasn't so there wouldn't be such a hurry to break rules as soon as they leave.  Look at me, I'm drinking coffee!

[rodheadlee]

11 hours ago, ttribe said:

So, just to be clear, you would tell each one of my hypothetical people that they should NOT trust their research and should trust their faith tradition's guidance on spirituality, instead?  And you would do that even though you don't agree with those faith traditions?  Do I have that correct?

No. Follow your heart. There's nothing wrong with research. But ultimately you need a confirmation from the Holy Spirit that what you're researching is true.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Sure.  If it wasn't so there wouldn't be such a hurry to break rules as soon as they leave.  Look at me, I'm drinking coffee!

You're conflating outcomes with motivation, which is exactly backwards. 

[Tacenda]

@JLHPROF

Well, make me the exception...I still wear my g's, don't drink coffee or alcohol. Same as before..

Edited January 20, 2022 by Tacenda

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

@JLHPROF

Well, make me the exception...I still wear my g's, don't drink coffee or alcohol. Same as before..

Have you really left then?

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Have you really left then?

Well, my belief isn't what it was. And I'm inactive physically but still watch church on zoom. And it helps because when my MIL asks how church was I can tell her.

[SkyRock]

55 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, my belief isn't what it was. And I'm inactive physically but still watch church on zoom. And it helps because when my MIL asks how church was I can tell her.

If you watch weekly you are active physically, no matter any protests to the contrary. Many members go through periods of spiritual turmoil.  Many get angry at the church or God.  

During such times returning to the basics is the best: prayer, fasting, scripture reading, service, etc.  May you find peace in your soul. 

[Raingirl]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, my belief isn't what it was. And I'm inactive physically but still watch church on zoom. And it helps because when my MIL asks how church was I can tell her.

Do you have to ask for permission each week?

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Do you have to ask for permission each week?

No, I get an email that is sent to all the ward members and it automatically connects. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

No, I get an email that is sent to all the ward members and it automatically connects. 

Again, I don't think you've left.  You may have doubts and question things.  You may have even limited your activity.  That's not the same as leaving.
And I think there are reasons for you continuing to participate in meetings, keep your covenants, and continue to participate in gospel discussion here.

[Raingirl]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No, I get an email that is sent to all the ward members and it automatically connects. 

Interesting. 
 

A few months ago, they took away the zoom link, and now you have to specifically request access each time you want to use it, and apparently you have to have Covid to be approved to use it.  I guess those of us who have other medical problems or want to avoid exposure to Covid (masks not required, no social distancing, etc.), are not considered worthy to have access. 

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Sure.  If it wasn't so there wouldn't be such a hurry to break rules as soon as they leave.  Look at me, I'm drinking coffee!

Ummm no.

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Have you really left then?

Actually someone can leave and still not choose certain behavior.  All I added to my indulgences was tea.  And that a number of years after. 

[Teancum]

Well I must say this has been an interesting thread and very enlightening.  I want to also apologize for being strident in some of my posting on the thread.  I have an unexpected health challenge and have been a bit cranky about it.  No excuse though.  Thanks for all the commentary.

[kimpearson]

19 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I wish I could refer directly to Jana Riess and Ben Knowles Next Mormons Survey, but I am limited to whatever I can find online (I read it as an audiobook checked out from the library, so difficult to go back and refer to directly). With that disclaimer, one source claims these were Riess and Knowle's NMS top ten reasons for leaving:

1. “I could no longer reconcile my personal values and priorities with those of the Church” (38%)
2. “I stopped believing there was one true church” (36.5%)
3. “I did not trust the Church leadership to tell the truth surrounding controversial or historical issues” (31%)
4. “I felt judged or misunderstood” (30%)
5. “I drifted away from Mormonism” (26%)
6. “I engaged in behaviors that the Church views as sinful” (23%)
7. “The Church’s positions on LGBT issues” (23%)
8. “The Church’s emphasis on conformity and obedience” (21%)
9. “Lack of historical evidence for the Book of Mormon and/or Book of Abraham” (21%)
10. “The role of women in the Church” (18%)

Comparing the two, and it would seem that @kimpearson's 1 is NMS's 3, kim's 2 is NMS's 7, and kim's 3 and 4 don't seem to readily map onto NMS's top 10 as reported here. Kim's data might be suspect for a variety of reasons, but there does seem to be some overlap with other published data.

Sorry I am not a professional surveyor so I came up with the best descriptions I could.  I would put my number 4 under 4 and 6.  My number 3 is number 2 above.  Most of the people who have talked to me believed because of their parents, missionaries or other members but eventually after much effort realized they had no belief of their own.  I will share that 9 and 10 were the major reasons those I spoke to had lost their trust.

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I wish I could refer directly to Jana Riess and Ben Knowles Next Mormons Survey, but I am limited to whatever I can find online (I read it as an audiobook checked out from the library, so difficult to go back and refer to directly). With that disclaimer, one source claims these were Riess and Knowle's NMS top ten reasons for leaving:

1. “I could no longer reconcile my personal values and priorities with those of the Church” (38%)
2. “I stopped believing there was one true church” (36.5%)
3. “I did not trust the Church leadership to tell the truth surrounding controversial or historical issues” (31%)
4. “I felt judged or misunderstood” (30%)
5. “I drifted away from Mormonism” (26%)
6. “I engaged in behaviors that the Church views as sinful” (23%)
7. “The Church’s positions on LGBT issues” (23%)
8. “The Church’s emphasis on conformity and obedience” (21%)
9. “Lack of historical evidence for the Book of Mormon and/or Book of Abraham” (21%)
10. “The role of women in the Church” (18%)

Comparing the two, and it would seem that @kimpearson's 1 is NMS's 3, kim's 2 is NMS's 7, and kim's 3 and 4 don't seem to readily map onto NMS's top 10 as reported here. Kim's data might be suspect for a variety of reasons, but there does seem to be some overlap with other published data.

In the whatever it is worth department (not much, I know) I would like to opine on another angle - that of why people don't join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the first place. The focus here seems to be on why people leave - I am more interested in why they don't join when they get to know the church and simply say "No thanks." I will use the same 10 reasons. Of course my response to this question is highly correlated to my own experience, so take that into consideration!

My number one reason on this list is #2 - with the amendment that I have never believed there was one true church. Then #8 - I am more a pietist - I believe in "being" as a sign of spirituality and righteousness more than is "doing." I see much too much stress on those, especially the women who doing all they can to do all they can to do all they can to be worthy. I am pretty convinced I will never be worthy, that is what the atonement is all about. Last, I guess would be #9 - although I like the Book of Mormon, I really have problems with the D&C and the POGP as scriptures. I do not believe the Book of Mormon is any longer the foundational document of the LDS church. The D&C has taken over as the primary source of doctrine; doctrines that were never contemplated in the Book of Mormon. The vast amount of that which is heterodox to the larger Christian community is found in D&C, not in the Book of Mormon.

Ok. There you have it! Not that anyone asked! Ha!

[kimpearson]

18 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

You actually kept a tally each time you talked to each of these four or five thousand?  Sorry, still not buying it.

Nope just sharing my best estimate as to what I have listened to over the last 9 years hoping that it gives some additional perspective to the discussion.

[T-Shirt]

3 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Nope just sharing my best estimate as to what I have listened to over the last 9 years hoping that it gives some additional perspective to the discussion.

Funny how earlier you said that 2000 plus people all told you the same thing.  Now the number is much higher, and they didn't all tell you the same thing.