Concrete guidance on gay dating while remaining a member in good standing?

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Chum said:

This is like the entire thread in one sentence.

Yes, and so I question how emotionally and mentally health that is in the long-run. Forget about "For the Strength of Frustrated Romantics."

[CV75]

53 minutes ago, california boy said:

I would say it is a LOT better than telling someone they can not have any intimate contact with anyone their entire life just because they are gay.  Lots of people live in sexless messages, yet they still find those relationships to be their most important and wouldn't give them up for anything.  Why can't a gay person at least have the option of that kind of relationship?  When did holding hands, kissing and hugs become a sin?????

I wasn't asking if it was better or wore (than what?), but if that is what he means. @Chumconfirmed that it is, and that is is supposed to support a lifetime of emotional and mental health while honoring the Church covenants.

To your point, a sexless marriage is still a marriage (a covenant between and man and a woman), and we cannot change the covenant.

I think the expectation that marriage is a romantic relationship between any two adults is based on a lack of understanding of the doctrine of marriage, and a lack of experience with marriage, period.

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, SkyRock said:

No. You still don't understand.  Everyone has pain in this life.   Some try to avoid it.  Some try to drown it in sin or entertainment.  Others grow through it, especially with the Grace of the Atonement.  It isn't getting over it, but it is dealing with it instead of wanting everyone else to change so you don't need to deal with your trials.

Joy comes from becoming a disciple of Christ through overcoming the natural man.  The Great Plan of Happiness isn't the Great Plan of Avoiding Struggle.   That was Satan's Plan, if you remember. 

My father was pained by my brother identifying as gay.   It has been a trial for him for 40 years.   He also has other trials, including the pain of losing his own father as a young man (a pain now of over 70 years), declining health in old age, financial setbacks, failed marriage, a dead spouse, insecurities,  etc.  That my brother has grown so much over the last 5 years fills my father with great joy. 

Dealing with struggles builds resilience.  Opposition provides us with growth opportunities.  

We will all fall short of the mark and we all have unique struggles.   It is almost impossible to grow without trials.  God is most concerned with our eternal destination.  

It is pretty narcissistic to believe that this trial is unique or so much more difficult than so many other struggles in life. 

Life has plenty of pain and challenges and trials without having trials and pain that are inflicted on us that are simply made up by self declared mouthpieces for God and made up man made rules parading as God's commandments.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, SkyRock said:

No, it is not. Most people who leave the church slip out the side door because of various sins and the lack of their own conversion. 

Pure and utter horsepucky.  In fact the Church has a study on what is causing so many very devout members that were high earning tithe payors and leaders that it commissioned in 2013 that disputes this. 

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, SkyRock said:

There are some that leave the church after pondering and such, but they are very few.  And those that do leave that way often lack humility and are full of pride.

And I missed this horsepucky as well. I think you have no idea how painful a faith transition can be for someone who fully believed and discovers the LDS Church narrative just does not stand up to scrutiny.  Members that have this view of those who leave for honest reasons are listed in the  Church study I mentioned as part of the problem.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_R28e.pdf

Edited January 12, 2022 by Teancum

[SkyRock]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

And I missed this horsepucky as well. I think you have no idea how painful a faith transition can be for someone who fully believed and discovers the LDS Church narrative just does not stand up to scrutiny.  Members that have this view of those who leave for honest reasons are listed in the  Church study I mentioned as part of the problem.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/documents/faith_crisis_study/Faith_Crisis_R28e.pdf

I disagree. 

That paper has an extremely narrow focus, a faith crisis from finding out church facts on the internet.  That is a very narrow part of those who leave the church. 

And did you see the methodology on selection on that?  Self-selected via social media over a 2 week period from Mormon Stories listeners.    That is a very small subset of those who leave the church 

As a result of the study, the church started releasing the essays on various church history and doctrine, which was a good outcome.  I am sorry, but if anyone had a faith crisis from reading "Rough Stone Rolling", they really didn't know much about church history.  

So, yes, a few might have a "crisis" when exposed to new things that many others already knew and then leave the church.   But many more come up with after the fact reasons.  

 

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

As a result of the study, the church started releasing the essays on various church history and doctrine, which was a good outcome

I highly doubt the impetus to the gospel topics essays was primarily the study.  If only because it was taking six months or more for stuff to be updated on the Church’s website at that time period (according to a private conversation with my nephew who was in charge of LDS.org at that time) as well as it took forever to get stuff drafted, proofed, redrafted etc to be published by the Church (hearing reports of writers for Ensign as well as third hand reports about the essays).  But also there were plenty of other sources including the one I belong to that was recommended for additional research in some of the Essays that could have provided the same info, for example based on questions being submitted to us at FAIR.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

I disagree. 

That paper has an extremely narrow focus, a faith crisis from finding out church facts on the internet.  That is a very narrow part of those who leave the church. 

And did you see the methodology on selection on that?  Self-selected via social media over a 2 week period from Mormon Stories listeners.    That is a very small subset of those who leave the church 

As a result of the study, the church started releasing the essays on various church history and doctrine, which was a good outcome.  I am sorry, but if anyone had a faith crisis from reading "Rough Stone Rolling", they really didn't know much about church history.  

So, yes, a few might have a "crisis" when exposed to new things that many others already knew and then leave the church.   But many more come up with after the fact reasons.  

 

Teancum produced a study done FOR THE CHURCH. You disagree because it doesn't fit your narrative.  

So now the burden is on you.  Show us a study that supports your claims.  Otherwise, we are going to believe in the data presented and not take some guy on the internet's opinion.  Why would we??

Put up or shut up.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Teancum produced a study done FOR THE CHURCH.

It was volunteered to the Church.  The Church did not hire or ask for it (and possibly weren’t the least interested in it and possibly were…we have no knowledge of how it was received beyond accepting it when given to some leaders, one person said he was told it was “reviewed” by some leaders, but specifics are completely lacking) as far as I have been able to find.

Quote

From October 2011 until August 2013, an unpaid team of scholars, strategists, and other volunteers conducted research, synthesized findings, and developed a number of strategic recommendations aimed at helping LDS leaders better understand and more compassionately minister to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in a faith crisis, meaning members experiencing severe emotional turmoil resulting from discovering Church
history facts that do not align with the traditional narrative of the Church. This faith crisis project was self-initiated and completed pro bono, meaning the work was conducted without compensation.
The following pages of this PDF contain a copy of the LDS Personal Faith Crisis report delivered to senior Church leaders in the early summer of 2013. A supplemental report entitled “Faith Crisis Chronicles” was also delivered to senior leaders a few weeks later in August 2013.
A more detailed description of the project’s impetus, estimated outcomes, and a listing of individual collaborators is included at the end of the document.

There was no face to face with Pres. Utchdorf, for example:

Quote

On August 23, 2013 Stratford arrived in Salt Lake for his meeting with Uchtdorf. Upon arriving at the Church Administration Building and clearing security, Stratford learned that Uchtdorf unexpectedly was unable to
meet with him. Stratford left a printed copy of the Faith Crisis Chronicles report, which Uchtdorf later acknowledged receipt via letter to Stratford

There appear to have been some meetings early on and claims were made they were listened to, but whether or not behaviour was actually changed based on the initial or later findings is hard to tell when all we hear about is vague claims from the study’s authors who of course would interpret even civility as positive feedback (which is understandable, but I wouldn’t make claims of change unless I was told specific behaviours were going to be done…otherwise I would be wondering if I had just gotten patted on the head and sent away).

Edited January 13, 2022 by Calm

[kimpearson]

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

Are you saying that a dating-only lifestyle is a sufficient romantic strategy to maintain emotional, mental and spiritual health (let's say for Church members keeping their covenants) for the long-term / a lifetime?

No just what the individuals were looking for in the OP original cite.

[kimpearson]

12 hours ago, SkyRock said:

No, it is not. Most people who leave the church slip out the side door because of various sins and the lack of their own conversion.  My best friend growing up never read scriptures, never prayed much, never cared about becoming and converted, and left the church at 18 as the sex and drinking took over. 

I work for a cultural Mormon.  In many conversations with him, it is clear he never was converted even though he grew up in the church, served a mission, went to BYU, and served in a bishopric.  After he had an affair and was excommunicated and started drinking, he suddenly started having questions about the church.  He is still a BYU fan, so there is that,  I guess. 

There are some that leave the church after pondering and such, but they are very few.  And those that do leave that way often lack humility and are full of pride.

Believing "the Church is Harmful to family members" is the opposite of obedience and humility.  It is the pride of putting our will and thoughts above God's will.   

Please provide the evidence that most people leave the church slip out the side door because of various sins and the lack of their own conversion.  I have personally talked to thousands who left the church and none left because of sin and a lack of conversion.  Most left because of lack of trust in church leaders due to the actions of those leaders, problems with church history, polygamy, patriarchy and yes LGTBQ issues.  Many members of a liberal mindset have left activity as they feel absolutely no acceptance of open thought and questioning.  Now again this my experience with several thousand who have left the Church.  One other point, almost everyone of these individuals experienced incredible pain upon the decision to leave the Church as they formerly had a testimony that they thought would never be shaken.  Please consider doing some research, listen to some podcasts, visit some online groups and just listen to peoples stories.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Please consider doing some research, listen to some podcasts, visit some online groups and just listen to peoples stories.

Listening to podcasts, visiting online groups, and listening to people's stories is the antithesis of doing research.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Listening to podcasts, visiting online groups, and listening to people's stories is the antithesis of doing research.

How to do your own research:

[why me]

I think that the Proclamation of the Family states it quite well. I believe that that proclamation was ahead of its time when it was published in 1995. If that proclamation is changed to fit the gay and lesbian community, I that that there would be a mass exodus of church members.

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, why me said:

I think that the Proclamation of the Family states it quite well. I believe that that proclamation was ahead of its time when it was published in 1995. If that proclamation is changed to fit the gay and lesbian community, I that that there would be a mass exodus of church members.

That is a bad reason to not change it even if it is true. Would you want our leadership to compare the numbers on how many people would leave if we did or did not change it and make a decision based on the results? Jesus might have had more followers and not had to ask “Will you also go away,” if he were inclined to alter the gospel to suit the audience.

[Mike Drop]

17 hours ago, SkyRock said:

There are some that leave the church after pondering and such, but they are very few.  And those that do leave that way often lack humility and are full of pride.

No! Let me say that again. No! Just the opposite actually. Most people that leave the church realize while they were living a Mormon lifestyle, they were full of pride and never realized how judgemental they were until leaving the church. We Mormons are a very good at flipping on a dime once we hear someone has left the church. 
 

As far as concrete guidance for gay church members, they need to follow their heart and not the advice of any man. We’re not here to follow a mortal man. 
 

 

[Teancum]

11 hours ago, SkyRock said:

I disagree. 

Really?  You disagree with a study sponsored and approved by a top LDS leader and performed by experts on such things.

 

 

11 hours ago, SkyRock said:

That paper has an extremely narrow focus, a faith crisis from finding out church facts on the internet.  That is a very narrow part of those who leave the church. 

The paper points out that the numbers are very large.  Do you have statistics to dispute them?  CFR for you to back up your position.  Anecdotes don't count.

11 hours ago, SkyRock said:

And did you see the methodology on selection on that?  Self-selected via social media over a 2 week period from Mormon Stories listeners.    That is a very small subset of those who leave the church 

I read the entire paper.  Did you?

11 hours ago, SkyRock said:

As a result of the study, the church started releasing the essays on various church history and doctrine, which was a good outcome.  I am sorry, but if anyone had a faith crisis from reading "Rough Stone Rolling", they really didn't know much about church history.  

I don't think you seem sorry at all. And where do you get the idea that one book causes someone to leave?

11 hours ago, SkyRock said:

So, yes, a few might have a "crisis" when exposed to new things that many others already knew and then leave the church.   But many more come up with after the fact reasons.  

 

Much more than a few, but I don't disagree that people leave the church all the time for a variety of reasons.  It has been happening for a long time.  Activity rates world wide are dismal.  I would guess the church may have 6 million active members are best and much less than that for endowed members.  

 

But if you really think that the people leaving over the fact that the LDS Church's truth claims has so many holes in them that you can drive a truck through them, that the LDS apologists are horrible at answering the questions and that the top leadership does not address the issues other than a few obscure essays, then continue to lose some of the best members.  Honestly thought, it is a tough situation. Defending the indefensible is hard work.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, kimpearson said:

No just what the individuals were looking for in the OP original cite.

For the most part, I think answers for their specific situation need to be individually addressed (both by the member and whoever may be counseling them), since the general guidance applies to all. Honor Code and similar standards set for specific environments where "in loco parentis" or other organizational responsibilities apply, are not those set for Church membership, where "teach them correct principles..." applies. Dating practices and behaviors differ from place to place. Romantic dating and courtship that cannot lead to marriage aren't for every Church member (hence "teach them correct principles"), but I can see some members doing that comfortably and in good faith vis-à-vis the covenants. Since ideally no member lives in a vacuum, we need to be sensitive to those around us, whether we are the dating couple or the members who rub shoulders with them -- balancing/navigating individual and social interests is ultimately an individual responsibility.

[T-Shirt]

6 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

Most people that leave the church realize while they were living a Mormon lifestyle, they were full of pride and never realized how judgemental they were until leaving the church.

Most?  You can't possibly know this. 

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

No! Let me say that again. No! Just the opposite actually. Most people that leave the church realize while they were living a Mormon lifestyle, they were full of pride and never realized how judgemental they were until leaving the church. We Mormons are a very good at flipping on a dime once we hear someone has left the church. 

“You’re prideful!”

”No, you’re prideful!”

[Calm]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

“You’re prideful!”

”No, you’re prideful!”

In my experience, the few I know both before and after leaving their faith long enough for me to feel comfortable making a judgment who were vocally judgmental before leaving the faith were as judgmental or more so after leaving it, the target was just different. (Due to my health and my kids no longer school age, I have very limited social interaction outside of extended family and church related stuff, so I don’t have these days casual friends who have left the Church, so most of my current experiences are with family or online contacts…both of which have their own conditions that may increase the appearance of someone’s level of judgmentalism imo).
 

Otoh, there were a number who became vocally judgmental after leaving where they weren’t before, but that may be they simply didn’t vocalize their judgments as those they were judging weren’t around to hear or some other reason. 

I do know a lot of judgmental Saints (both grandmothers were doozies in my memory, but perhaps I was over sensitive as a teen and young adult, though my siblings and cousins have shared they made them squirm as well many times, but we could be just remembering it as happening more than it did).  Still I have yet to find anyone religious or not who is not judgmental in some fashion if you talk to them long enough (comes up very quickly if talking politics usually, for example).

Edited January 13, 2022 by Calm

[sunstoned]

On 1/13/2022 at 5:00 AM, why me said:

I think that the Proclamation of the Family states it quite well. I believe that that proclamation was ahead of its time when it was published in 1995. If that proclamation is changed to fit the gay and lesbian community, I that that there would be a mass exodus of church members.

There have been many policy changes in the church.  The latest being the walking back of the POX.  And that one was supposedly a revelation.  The church survived just fine.

[Tacenda]

I wonder if it's been clarified on this board why exactly the church hasn't been stating the statistics of membership any longer in conference. 

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if it's been clarified on this board why exactly the church hasn't been stating the statistics of membership any longer in conference. 

Probably to avoid taking time. They still publish it during conference. Some people love those numbers but most people’s eyes probably glaze over.

[rongo]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Probably to avoid taking time. They still publish it during conference. Some people love those numbers but most people’s eyes probably glaze over.

They still have the guy get up to announce that the Church passed its audit (whew! On the edge of our seat, on pins and needles). I don't think it was because of that. It coincided perfectly with when the rate of growth slowed to near zero. And, convert baptisms were dropping (I think we only had 90,000 last year) from the steady 300,000 or so every time they announced it.

I think it was because they didn't want to announce numbers audibly. Like the gospel topics essays, they are eventually published, and you can find them, but they aren't showcased and emphasized.

Edited January 15, 2022 by rongo