What To Do When Your Friend Turns Anti-Mormon?

[Fether]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

You really aren't serious are you? If you are, could you please fill me in on some of the fine points of "Protestant cultures as you know them to be?" I am a Baptist preacher; someone you just maligned. Tell me a bit more about my culture. What do your biases teach you that it means to be to be "full on Baptist/Pentecostal preacher?" Oh and I should tell you I just had the local Pentecostal pastor in my home yesterday. She was a delightful Godly lady, just like the President of the ward's Women's Relief Society, who was also in our home just a week or so ago. I wonder if you didn't know either of them if you could have determined who was which?
 

I would love to talk about this more in depth, but the tone of your message suggests you don’t really want to discuss it. Seems you have already decided what I believe and are ready to tell me I’m wrong regardless of what I say.

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This thread is about a Latter-day Saint who is offended that her friend is now anti-Mormon and saying offensive things like Latter-day Saints aren’t Christian. 

The thing is saying Latter Day Saints is not Christian is not offensive just as saying cats are not mammals is not offensive to cats.  Its a statement of ignorance not offense.  By definition, LDS are Christian because the base definition of Christian is someone who believes in the teachings of Jesus.  Sure we don't believe the same things about Jesus and what he taught as other Christians but other Christians do not agree on a lot of stuff between themselves.  That is have true for a long time.   It is no different than when people just spew out words like "homophobia" or "transphobia" In the vast majority of cases, no clinical phobia is present in the people or group they are using it against.  I am not offended if a person says I am "transphobic".  I laugh at them because they are the ones misusing the word.

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Raingirl said:

It is mind boggling to me why the OP and other church members are so threatened and judgmental when someone chooses to join another church.  There is no love shown for the person, just judgementalism and shunning. 

Be honest.  If I was your neighbor and my basic interaction with you was that you suck, I criticize everything you do, how your hair looks, ect, would you find that a great thing and want to be my friend?  Or would you engage in a little bit of shunning and offering judgement against me because you don't like it when try to drag you down into the mud? 

We don't have to agree with our neighbors on what they believe whether religion or politics or anything else.  We should respect their right to believe whatever they want without attacking or bashing them.  Now if all parties want to get in the ring and have the debate, that is great.   This "Jane" person does not seem to want to respect boundaries.  This Jane person should ask the person first if they want to debate or fight and not just initiate it on her own.

Edited January 9, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[Chum]

12 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

my basic interaction with you was that you suck, I criticize everything you do

Well, she was married to me for 25 years so all that interaction must have been something. Or something else.

[Olmec Donald]

8 hours ago, GingerRed said:

This all makes me SOO sad! Right now, I want nothing more to do with her and she is not welcome at my home for the time being. She is going down a dark path, and I don't want those bad vibes in my house. I don't care about her being in another religion, more power to her if that's what makes her happy. BUT...to turn around and attack my faith that I hold dear...that's crossing the line! If you insult my faith you insult me.

At one time I shared some ideas which were critical of the church with a friend, and did not make the connection that an insult of the LDS church was an insult to them personally.  In retrospect that probably should have been obvious to me, but it wasn't.  Anyway maybe Jane simply doesn't realize that her criticisms of the LDS church come across as personal attacks to you and your friends.  

My friend let me know that I was hurting their feelngs and that saved our friendship.  Might it be worth a shot in your situation?

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

ust because something is true doesn't make it ok to express it.

There is a lot of wisdom in that. It is a very tough lesson to learn, especially when one is equally as passionate about what he or she believes is "true."

 

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

I would love to talk about this more in depth, but the tone of your message suggests you don’t really want to discuss it. Seems you have already decided what I believe and are ready to tell me I’m wrong regardless of what I say.

I would never tell you you are wrong. I would tell you that you sound bias and prejudiced based on exactly what you say.

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am confused. I may be wrong, but I do not believe that Catholics have officially taught that unbaptized infants go to hell since the early middle ages. 

You are almost correct, Navidad. Instead, the Catholic Church has never taught this, ever. One Church Father, St. Augustine proposed the idea. With no disrespect to the otherwise reliable St. Augustine on this singular point of view, he hadn't the benefit of further development. He made an unnecessary presumption that the Catholic Church never accepted.

The only "people" who ever "officially taught" that unbaptized infants go to a burning hell, lived in the New World of the Book of Mormon, (if they ever lived at all). 

Edited January 10, 2022 by 3DOP

[Fether]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

You really aren't serious are you? If you are, could you please fill me in on some of the fine points of "Protestant cultures as you know them to be?" I am a Baptist preacher; someone you just maligned. Tell me a bit more about my culture. What do your biases teach you that it means to be to be "full on Baptist/Pentecostal preacher?" Oh and I should tell you I just had the local Pentecostal pastor in my home yesterday. She was a delightful Godly lady, just like the President of the ward's Women's Relief Society, who was also in our home just a week or so ago. I wonder if you didn't know either of them if you could have determined who was which?
 

I’m confused why you would share this. No where did I suggest all Protestants were the same. I just pointed out that many Protestants practice their faith in a way that is driven by emotion and passion.

I don’t believe all are like this. I’m only pointing out that the Protestant faiths are more of an emotional mine field than the Latter-day Saint’s

Edited January 10, 2022 by Fether

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

One of my sons married the daughter of a Baptist preacher. This Baptist preacher once told my son (who was inactive LDS) that if he saw two Mormon missionaries walking or riding their bikes down the road, and he thought he could get away with it, then he'd run them down and hope they died. I don't know if he was serious or not, but... wow.

My niece in law was told by her father he wished her future husband had raped her rather than baptized her. I understand that he was thinking of the difference between mortality and eternity, still to say that to your daughter. However, the family has become more accepting overtime and I believe the father no longer sees it that way anymore. 
 

And in case anyone wonders I have heard of LDS families who react in much the same way. I find it very sad and troubling where ever it occurs. 

[Jane_Doe]

9 hours ago, GingerRed said:

Hello all.....I haven't posted here in a long time...but I wanted feedback from you guys. Your opinions I have always held in high regard.

 

I live in Utah. 10 months ago, a good friend of mine I've know for several years, ( I'll just call her Jane for privacy) who used to be a faithful Latter Day Saint, left the LDS church to join the Centerpoint church.  Her many LDS friends, including myself, tried to be understanding, kind and remained her friends to show we still care whether she was Mormon or not. We noticed that Jane had gone out and got a nose ring and some tattoos. Umm....okay. Going a bit rogue, much?  Ok fine we can handle that, not big deal.

Note: CenterPoint Church in Orem hosted a big "Faith After Mormonism" event.   Such might have played a role in Jane's behavior.   https://faithaftermormonism.org/2021-faith-after-mormonism-conference-south/

[Navidad]

37 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’m confused why you would share this. No where did I suggest all Protestants were the same. I just pointed out that many Protestants practice their faith in a way that is driven by emotion and passion.

I don’t believe all are like this. I’m only pointing out that the Protestant faiths are more of an emotional mine field than the Latter-day Saint’s

Ok fair enough. I don't want to prolong this. You talked about "Protestant Culture." I would simply suggest that there is no such thing as a "Protestant Culture." The Protestant community is deep, wide, and very diverse. Yours is a statement that leads to inaccurate generalizations just as does saying that "many Protestants practice their faith in a way that is driven by emotion and passion."

Would you accept the following? "Many Protestants are deeply passionate about their faith. Like members of the LDS faith, most Protestants have rather strong beliefs which are very important to them. Both Protestants and members of the LDS church, while most often driven by reason, may become emotional when told that the faith they practice is not fully Christian, but 'less than' the faith of the critic who disparages and attempts to convert them." Could we find common ground with that statement? Thanks and best wishes.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Navidad

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks, but most Baptists are also not unlike me. Some of the things in this thread are based on anecdotal experiences that are then generalized about an entire group. Person X goes to a church where Pentecostals handle snakes and comes out declaring that all Pentecostals handle snakes (actually less than 1/10th of 1% do)! This happens on all sides of all debates like this. A snarky LDS missionary knocks on my sister's door and badmouths Mennonites (my sister is a strong leader in the Mennonite community where she lives). She then writes me and says "How can you be involved with such hateful people like the Mormons?" Then I have to remind her that many, indeed most members of the LDS church are not like that missionary. We each believe our lived experience is the truth, without realizing it is only our truth. The faithful LDS member who runs into a snarky Fundamentalist at Temple Square might mirror image my sister in the opposite direction. 

I looked up the Centerpoint Church's website. I found it confusing and unsettling. The church at one time was affiliated with the Evangelical Free Church - a wonderful and compassionate Evangelical group. I have preached in many E-Free churches and have many E-Free friends. Then I listened carefully to the pastor's introductory remarks on the "About Us" page. I didn't like some of his comments about the culture and people of the Utah Valley. It is clear to me he has a bee in his bonnet about the LDS church. I don't know what he teaches or preaches. But as an Evangelical, I was a bit discomforted by listening to the code words he used in his talk.

I was wondering because I have been told that there are something like five Mennonite church affiliated churches in and around the greater Salt Lake City area who have dropped the Mennonite name and who are finding success with a generic community-type name. I was very curious to see if Centerpoint Church is one of them. It doesn't seem that it is. I was relieved! The Centerpoint Church mentions no current affiliation with any Evangelical or Fundamentalist group on their website. That is a red flag to me. Some of the most strident folks come out of a faith tradition where they have no oversight other than their local leaders. That is rarely good in my experience.  Take care and best wishes.

According to this person's blog, at least 50% of the congregants are former LDS. So that may be where @GingerRed 's friend "Jane" is getting hyped up against the LDS church.

https://exmormonmom.wordpress.com/2015/03/02/calling-all-christians-prayers-for-utah-valley/

"Pray for my local church, Centerpoint Church, in Orem. What a history! This church has struggled to survive for over 30 years in a hostile environment and has now grown into one of the largest Christian Churches in Utah County. We have approximately 250-300 people attending service on an average Sunday. Over half of the church congregation is former LDS. "

Edited January 10, 2022 by Tacenda

[GingerRed]

29 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

According to this person's blog, at least 50% of the congregants are former LDS. So that may be where @GingerRed 's friend "Jane" is getting hyped up against the LDS church.

https://exmormonmom.wordpress.com/2015/03/02/calling-all-christians-prayers-for-utah-valley/

"Pray for my local church, Centerpoint Church, in Orem. What a history! This church has struggled to survive for over 30 years in a hostile environment and has now grown into one of the largest Christian Churches in Utah County. We have approximately 250-300 people attending service on an average Sunday. Over half of the church congregation is former LDS. "

Thank you Tacenda and Jane Doe for sharing those links. I'm not surprised... I had a suspicion that this Centerpoint church was hiding something like that. I was looking thru those comments... man they sure are on a mission to  save us poor blind sheep from the "evils of Mormonism"..kinda made me laugh actually.  And what's wrong with just living the life of your own church and worry about and put all your efforts to your OWN salvation, and leave ours alone like we leave them alone? Why can't they just live and let live?  

You know....I've always said that those who purposely fight against our church, just makes me believe all the more that our gospel is the truth.  Because if there really is one true Church of Jesus Christ....wouldn't Satan be doing his darnest to fight against it any way he can 24/7?  And that's what's happening!  Not counting the Jews cause they had it worse...but we are sure being overly persecuted for years now. Why doesn't places like the Cetnerpoint church go after Jews? or Catholics ? Or Baptists with the same vigor they fight against us? Explain that!  They believe differently than they do.  So why pick on our church? Never made any sense to me, never will.  You will NEVER see the LDS church go after one particular religion and post stuff on their website like they do theirs!  You will never see any LDS person go to another church and target it and hold up picket signs, yelling and screaming telling them they will burn in hell!  But can they give us that same curtesy? Never.

[Fether]

34 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Would you accept the following? "Many Protestants are deeply passionate about their faith. Like members of the LDS faith, most Protestants have rather strong beliefs which are very important to them. Both Protestants and members of the LDS church, while most often driven by reason, may become emotional when told that the faith they practice is not fully Christian, but 'less than' the faith of the critic who disparages and attempts to convert them." Could we find common ground with that statement? Thanks and best wishes.

Much like how there are many undesirable cultural things that Latter-day Saints are taught to do, I think this is one that is part of traditional Protestant culture. And much like how those traits appear most in saints that choose not to study but use church just as a tribe to connect with, I imagine it is the same in Protestant faiths.
 

I spent two years seeing the word “Jesus” change normal people into some different version of them. This version ranged from simply saying and acting differently, to ignoring whatever was just said or asked begin declaring their love for Jesus, repeating some non-biblical phrases they must have heard from their preacher, or condemning me to hell (I’ve seen this go on for 20 minutes on a few occasions if we didn’t cut the conversation short). There seems to be some cultural expectation for this attitude. I once went to a mega church with an investigator. While there, she said began mimicking the actions of the congregation, doing things that were completely outside the nature we had previously experienced. 

That being said, I met MANY incredible Christians that embodied Christlike behavior in all they do regardless of the topic of conversation. Both young and old.
 

My point is that there seems to be in many Protestant congregations some sort of cultural push to act a specific way. I was in the south long enough to see it and acknowledge it, but, admittedly not long enough to really know why this was the way it was

[kimpearson]

23 minutes ago, GingerRed said:

Thank you Tacenda and Jane Doe for sharing those links. I'm not surprised... I had a suspicion that this Centerpoint church was hiding something like that. I was looking thru those comments... man they sure are on a mission to  save us poor blind sheep from the "evils of Mormonism"..kinda made me laugh actually.  And what's wrong with just living the life of your own church and worry about and put all your efforts to your OWN salvation, and leave ours alone like we leave them alone? Why can't they just live and let live?  

You know....I've always said that those who purposely fight against our church, just makes me believe all the more that our gospel is the truth.  Because if there really is one true Church of Jesus Christ....wouldn't Satan be doing his darnest to fight against it any way he can 24/7?  And that's what's happening!  Not counting the Jews cause they had it worse...but we are sure being overly persecuted for years now. Why doesn't places like the Cetnerpoint church go after Jews? or Catholics ? Or Baptists with the same vigor they fight against us? Explain that!  They believe differently than they do.  So why pick on our church? Never made any sense to me, never will.  You will NEVER see the LDS church go after one particular religion and post stuff on their website like they do theirs!  You will never see any LDS person go to another church and target it and hold up picket signs, yelling and screaming telling them they will burn in hell!  But can they give us that same curtesy? Never.

Once again you do acknowledge don't you that our Church has never "just live and let live".   We send out 25,000 to 30,000 thousand missionaries a year to work to get people to change their religion.  We are fighting against those religions in a very real and massive way.  Our church doesn't openly attack other churches, we just broadcast a message every 6 months to the whole world claiming our church is the only church capable of administering ordinance that have the power to save.   We inform the world that no other church has the power to seal marriages and families together forever.  That only our leaders can be sustained as prophets, seers and revelators.  You do realize every time you get a temple recommend that you acknowledge only our church is true.  When you go to the temple, remember you promise to do pretty much anything to build up and grow the Church.  You do realize don't you that your founding prophet vigorously attacked other religions in his days just as strongly as your friend Jane did our Church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not in any way just live and let live.  Is it any surprise that some other church might be a little upset at us?  I would be willing to bet that some local members have said extremely hateful things against the Centerpoint church with the justification that the other guy started it.  Just think what Christ taught about those who disagree with you.

Edited January 10, 2022 by kimpearson

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

Once again you do acknowledge don't you that our Church has never "just live and let live".   We send out 25,000 to 30,000 thousand missionaries a year to work to get people to change their religion.  We are fighting against those religions in a very real and massive way.  Our church doesn't openly attack other churches, we just broadcast a message every 6 months to the whole world claiming our church is the only church capable of administering ordinance that have the power to save.   We inform the world that no other church has the power to seal marriages and families together forever.  That only our leaders can be sustained as prophets, seers and revelators.  You do realize every time you get a temple recommend that you acknowledge only our church is true.  When you go to the temple, remember you promise to do pretty much anything to build up and grow the Church.  You do realize don't you that your founding prophet vigorously attacked other religions in his days just as strongly as your friend Jane did our Church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not in any way just live and let live.  Is it any surprise that some other church might be a little upset at us?  I would be willing to bet that some local members have said extremely hateful things against the Centerpoint church with the justification that the other guy started it.  Just think what Christ taught about those who disagree with you.

The missionaries go out to present the message of the LDS Church and invite people to know if it is true or not.  Missionaries do not spend much time attempting to disprove other religious beliefs, criticize leaders outside of our faith, and so forth.  We do not protest new non-LDS church buildings when they open up or do protests of really anything.  Also missionaries do not target any specific group.  They teach everyone that is willing to listen.  We are not directing any attack against any specific church or group.  There are no lectures in the Church like "What the Baptists really believe but will not tell you." 

Yes w inform the world that no other church has the power to seal marriages and families together forever.  What other churches make a claim they have this power?  They basically deny it is possible. 

Of course we tell people our church is the true church.  Building up the Church is not an attack against other churches.  I suppose using this logic Jesus attacked other religions by suggesting that people can only be saved through him.  Was his intention to attack other religions or just declare truth?  If a new fast food place says they have the best burgers in town, is this a direct attack on Burger King and Wendys or are they just telling people to try their burgers.  They might like them better than other places?

Edited January 10, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Its a statement of ignorance not offense.

For someone who knows the truth and still says this it switches from being ignorance and moves into lying.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

For someone who knows the truth and still says this it switches from being ignorance and moves into lying.

If they know the truth and refuse to accept it it would be lying.  Some people are just too hard headed to make a change.  Maybe they are not lying.  They just don't have the capacity to learn much.  We make the choice to be offended or not be offended.   I am no more offended when someone says we are not Christian just as I am not offended if someone declares 1 + 1 = 3.   They are wrong but I should not be offended by it.  If anything it just gives me a good laugh.

[kimpearson]

10 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The missionaries go out to present the message of the LDS Church and invite people to know if it is true or not.  Missionaries do not spend much time attempting to disprove other religious beliefs, criticize leaders outside of our faith, and so forth.  We do not protest new non-LDS church buildings when they open up or do protests of really anything. 

Yes w inform the world that no other church has the power to seal marriages and families together forever.  What other churches make a claim they have this power?  They basically deny it is possible. 

Of course we tell people our church is the true church.  Building up the Church is not an attack against other churches.  I suppose using this logic Jesus attacked other religions by suggesting that people can only be saved through him.  Was his intention to attack other religions or just declare truth?  If a new fast food place says they have the best burgers in town, is this a direct attack on Burger King and Wendys or are they just telling people to try their burgers.  They might like them better than other places?

You forgot to tell the missionary department.  Although our missionaries are taught to say all the other churches are wrong and their beliefs corrupted, they do it in a very nice way.  

From Preach my Gospel lesson 1

The Great Apostasy

After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and the presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrine of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrine was corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Without revelation and priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures and the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. False ideas were taught as truth. Much of the knowledge of the true character and nature of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was lost. Important parts of the doctrine of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost became distorted or forgotten. The priesthood authority given to Christ’s Apostles was no longer present on the earth. This apostasy eventually led to the emergence of many churches.

After centuries of spiritual darkness, truth-seeking men and women protested against current religious practices. They recognized that much of the doctrine and many of the ordinances of the gospel had been changed or lost. They sought for greater spiritual light, and many spoke of the need for a restoration of truth. None of these people claimed, however, that God had called them to be a prophet. Instead, they tried to reform teachings and practices that they believed had been changed or corrupted. Their efforts led to the organization of many Protestant churches. This Reformation resulted in an increased emphasis on religious freedom, which opened the way for the final Restoration.

The Savior’s Apostles foretold this universal apostasy. They also foretold that the gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church would be restored once more upon the earth.

The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith

When the circumstances were right, Heavenly Father once again reached out to His children in love. He called a young man named Joseph Smith as a prophet. Through him the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth.

“So great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was … to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong. … In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?” (Joseph Smith—History 1:8, 10).

As Joseph sought truth among the different faiths, he turned to the Bible for guidance. He read, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” (James 1:5). Because of this passage, Joseph decided to ask God what he should do. In the spring of 1820 he went to a nearby grove of trees and knelt in prayer. We have four different accounts of what followed, recorded by him or scribes under his direction (see Gospel Topics essay, “First Vision Accounts”). In one account, he described his experience:

“I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. … When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17).

In this vision God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told Joseph not to join any of the churches, for they “were all wrong” and “all their creeds were an abomination.” He stated, “They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19). Even though many good people believed in Christ and tried to understand and teach His gospel, they did not have the fulness of truth or the priesthood authority to baptize and perform other saving ordinances. They had inherited a state of apostasy as each generation was influenced by what the previous one passed on, including changes in the doctrine and in ordinances such as baptism. As God had done with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and other prophets, He called Joseph Smith to be a prophet through whom the fulness of the gospel was restored to the earth.

 

[Navidad]

I think this thread is the most important thread in the four plus years I have been on this forum. Some very important points are being made by all. It is my prayer that folks with different perspectives on the OP's question do not simply and easily talk past each other. There is a long and terribly sad history of bias, prejudice, negativity, and quite frankly ignorance between a sadly large number of LDS and non-LDS Christians. Most likely many on this forum have either had personal experience with this by either being a victim of the other or by having at some time or another participated in causing the other's pain.

Of course all of those involved are both motivated and justified by their understanding of the gospel of the same Savior. Doctrine is a powerful force. Dogma is even stronger. I have long been concerned about the direct path connecting Doctrine-Dogma-Duty-Danger or Destruction. In the name of the Savior we hurt, cause pain, belittle, mock, and "other" those who are not us. I believe when we do this we collectively make God cry. And we all do it. We create blind spots that enable us to deny, but we all do it.

Then the best of us have to acknowledge that we all, as humans see through a glass darkly. Not one of us has certainty about what lies beyond the veil, who will end up where, and what all the criteria are by which Christ, the shepherd, judge, jury, prosecutor, and defender will judge us. The most faithful, the brightest, and the best of those on each side must simply trust in our respective faith that we are approximating the Truth (large T) of the gospel of Jesus Christ via our respective truths (small t) of our own lived experiences, beliefs, understanding, and group. Most of us have our arguments down pat. The best of us are experienced in how to refute the other. In so doing we all become less than what Christ wants us to be. He is anxious for us to thirst and long for more of Him, not to denigrate, denounce, demean, or defeat the others who look through the same glass just as darkly, and love Him so and trust in the perfect balance of His justice and mercy.

This is a very important conversation. Please let's not simply talk past each other about this. I believe every one of us needs to acknowledge how important it is that we let go of all the negatives that we have been taught about those who love the Savior but are not us. Our needs to rank ourselves as higher and the other as lower, less rational, less in tune with the Spirit, less correct is not the essence of the gospel. Our collective gospel is not one of thumping or beating the chest; it is one of falling on our knees daily to seek to be more like the Christ we, through all our differences share.

Thanks and best wishes to all.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Navidad

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

You forgot to tell the missionary department.  Although our missionaries are taught to say all the other churches are wrong and their beliefs corrupted, they do it in a very nice way.  

From Preach my Gospel lesson 1

The Great Apostasy

After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and the presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrine of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrine was corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Without revelation and priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures and the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. False ideas were taught as truth. Much of the knowledge of the true character and nature of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was lost. Important parts of the doctrine of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost became distorted or forgotten. The priesthood authority given to Christ’s Apostles was no longer present on the earth. This apostasy eventually led to the emergence of many churches.

After centuries of spiritual darkness, truth-seeking men and women protested against current religious practices. They recognized that much of the doctrine and many of the ordinances of the gospel had been changed or lost. They sought for greater spiritual light, and many spoke of the need for a restoration of truth. None of these people claimed, however, that God had called them to be a prophet. Instead, they tried to reform teachings and practices that they believed had been changed or corrupted. Their efforts led to the organization of many Protestant churches. This Reformation resulted in an increased emphasis on religious freedom, which opened the way for the final Restoration.

The Savior’s Apostles foretold this universal apostasy. They also foretold that the gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church would be restored once more upon the earth.

The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith

When the circumstances were right, Heavenly Father once again reached out to His children in love. He called a young man named Joseph Smith as a prophet. Through him the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth.

“So great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was … to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong. … In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?” (Joseph Smith—History 1:8, 10).

As Joseph sought truth among the different faiths, he turned to the Bible for guidance. He read, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” (James 1:5). Because of this passage, Joseph decided to ask God what he should do. In the spring of 1820 he went to a nearby grove of trees and knelt in prayer. We have four different accounts of what followed, recorded by him or scribes under his direction (see Gospel Topics essay, “First Vision Accounts”). In one account, he described his experience:

“I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. … When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17).

In this vision God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told Joseph not to join any of the churches, for they “were all wrong” and “all their creeds were an abomination.” He stated, “They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19). Even though many good people believed in Christ and tried to understand and teach His gospel, they did not have the fulness of truth or the priesthood authority to baptize and perform other saving ordinances. They had inherited a state of apostasy as each generation was influenced by what the previous one passed on, including changes in the doctrine and in ordinances such as baptism. As God had done with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and other prophets, He called Joseph Smith to be a prophet through whom the fulness of the gospel was restored to the earth.

 

What you call an attack is simply explaining the existence of the Church.  Why be a member if it does not matter whether one is or not.  Even in these so called attacks, they are not directed at any specific church or leader.  Plus we believe the apostasy is described in the scriptures would happen and did happen.  There is simply no equivalence to what you posted here and The Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin or a dozen other books and sources critical against the Church.  Though you can find a few areas that you can say are an attack, you ignore other examples that show charity towards non-LDS people.  We usually don't see the same charity returned.

• Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true "Mormons."  (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 316)

• "We believe in righteousness. We believe in all truth, no matter to what subject it may refer. No sect or religious denomination in the world possesses a single principle of truth that we do not accept or that we will reject. We are willing to receive all truth, from whatever source it may come." (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine p. 1)

• "We recognize the truth that exists everywhere. That which is true is part of our religion; for it embraces all truth. Our Church is truth's magnet; truth from anywhere and everywhere is attracted by it, comes to it, assimilates with it, has an affinity with it. Truth from every source is recognized by our Church... If Catholicism has any truth that we have not, we will be glad to have it. If Protestantism had any truth that we have not, we welcome it. If Mohammedanism has any truth that we have not yet learned, we will be pleased to get it. If truth should come from any part of the world that we have not yet obtained, we will receive it and rejoice in it." (Charles Penrose in Brain Stuy, Collected Discourses Vol. 5 p. 365)

• "We see the providence of God in all things; we see them in raising up different communities and establishments in the world for the general and universal benefit of mankind. We see the providence of God in raising up a Luther and a John Wesley; we see the providence of God in all the Christian organizations and communities..." (Lorenzo Snow, Journal of Discourses  Vol. 14  p. 301-302)

• All Christian Churches have it, those who seek truth and righteousness. The Baptists, if they are honest, have it; so have the Presbyterians and the Methodists; so also have all Christian and heathen nations. ...We can trace the providence of the Almighty in raising up certain individuals to establish religious organizations, and we see in these things the workings of the Spirit of God for the general interest of the human family. We look upon George Washington, the father of our country, as an inspired instrument of the Almighty; we can see the all-inspiring Spirit operating upon him. ...We can see not only what the Baptists, Methodists, Quakers, Shakers, Presbyterians, and Campbellites see, — the hand of the Lord working with them, but we can see the hand of the Almighty establishing a kingdom spoken of in ages long past by Daniel the Prophet..." (Lorenzo Snow, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14 p. 304–305)

• "There are some of other faiths who do not regard us as Christians. That is not important. How we regard ourselves is what is important. We acknowledge without hesitation that there are differences between us. Were this not so there would have been no need for a restoration of the gospel....We can respect other religions, and must do so. We must recognize the great good they accomplish. We must teach our children to be tolerant and friendly toward those not of our faith. We can and do work with those of other religions in the defense of those values which have made our civilization great and our society distinctive... But in all of this there is no doctrinal compromise. There need not be and must not be on our part. But there is a degree of fellowship as we labor together." (Gordon B. Hinckley, “We Bear Witness of Him,” Conference Report, April 1988)

 

 

[SteveO]

38 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

You forgot to tell the missionary department.  Although our missionaries are taught to say all the other churches are wrong and their beliefs corrupted, they do it in a very nice way.  

From Preach my Gospel lesson 1

The Great Apostasy

After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and the presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrine of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrine was corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Without revelation and priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures and the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. False ideas were taught as truth. Much of the knowledge of the true character and nature of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was lost. Important parts of the doctrine of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost became distorted or forgotten. The priesthood authority given to Christ’s Apostles was no longer present on the earth. This apostasy eventually led to the emergence of many churches.

After centuries of spiritual darkness, truth-seeking men and women protested against current religious practices. They recognized that much of the doctrine and many of the ordinances of the gospel had been changed or lost. They sought for greater spiritual light, and many spoke of the need for a restoration of truth. None of these people claimed, however, that God had called them to be a prophet. Instead, they tried to reform teachings and practices that they believed had been changed or corrupted. Their efforts led to the organization of many Protestant churches. This Reformation resulted in an increased emphasis on religious freedom, which opened the way for the final Restoration.

The Savior’s Apostles foretold this universal apostasy. They also foretold that the gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church would be restored once more upon the earth.

The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith

When the circumstances were right, Heavenly Father once again reached out to His children in love. He called a young man named Joseph Smith as a prophet. Through him the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth.

“So great were the confusion and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was … to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong. … In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?” (Joseph Smith—History 1:8, 10).

As Joseph sought truth among the different faiths, he turned to the Bible for guidance. He read, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him” (James 1:5). Because of this passage, Joseph decided to ask God what he should do. In the spring of 1820 he went to a nearby grove of trees and knelt in prayer. We have four different accounts of what followed, recorded by him or scribes under his direction (see Gospel Topics essay, “First Vision Accounts”). In one account, he described his experience:

“I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. … When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (Joseph Smith—History 1:16–17).

In this vision God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told Joseph not to join any of the churches, for they “were all wrong” and “all their creeds were an abomination.” He stated, “They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19). Even though many good people believed in Christ and tried to understand and teach His gospel, they did not have the fulness of truth or the priesthood authority to baptize and perform other saving ordinances. They had inherited a state of apostasy as each generation was influenced by what the previous one passed on, including changes in the doctrine and in ordinances such as baptism. As God had done with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and other prophets, He called Joseph Smith to be a prophet through whom the fulness of the gospel was restored to the earth.

 

Man, sounds like you want to hide the light under a bushel, under a mountain, and then 20,000 leagues under the sea.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

For someone who knows the truth and still says this it switches from being ignorance and moves into lying.

Maybe.  Or maybe her new learning has altered her memory some.  Brains are kind of funny like that sometimes.

[kimpearson]

48 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Man, sounds like you want to hide the light under a bushel, under a mountain, and then 20,000 leagues under the sea.

Nope.  Just wish we were more honest with ourselves as a Church and how some of our core teachings are extremely offensive.  I believe our core story of apostasy is based on a general 19th century understanding of history.  Based on today's understanding of the history of Christianity, I would argue Christ wasn't focused on organizing an official church when He walked the earth but rather wanted to get the word out about Himself, God the Father and the Holy Ghost.  Jesus's message was the important work.  Mankind took that message and as mankind will do came up with multiple versions of the message.  Much in each version contained parts of the message of Christ.  God knew that Jesus's message in some form would come to influence a large portion of the world's population.  Joseph Smith's role was no different from any other prophet.  Clarify the message of Jesus Christ and invite all to consider the clarified message.  Joseph's clarified message came through revelation including the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.  That clarified message is only a complement to the existing understanding of Christ's message to the world.  It's additive, not in competition with existing beliefs but valuable to clarify and increase understanding of the message of Jesus Christ.  When presented with charity, it should lift and increase faith in Jesus Christ that many already have not make some feel like their faith is counterfeit or lacking.

The LDS Church's belief about Christ granting priesthood power with detailed offices that were lost is just not supported by history.  The offices mentioned in the New Testament other than apostle didn't come about until long after Christ's death and resurrection and there is no evidence the Christ personally created those positions or intended them to continue.  The apostles themselves only saw themselves as witnesses with the power to baptize and bless.   The priesthood power claims that Joseph Smith makes are of keys to perform certain things necessary to make certain covenants, perform certain ordinances and give certain blessings.  Once again priesthood power in this sense is additive and in no way should negate the faith, prayers, covenants and blessings of other religions.  We ask converts to be baptized again to accept these additional covenants under specific keys.  We are not saying their original baptism had no value or that no covenants with God were made.  In fact, we believe everyone will have the opportunity to accept these additional covenants even if they never get the full opportunity in this life.  We do not exclude those baptized in other religions.

A righteous light is inviting and comforting.  Those who come into that light see clearer.  A light that is harsh, dismissive and makes those in that light think they are the only ones with light is not what Christ was talking about.  Our church is not the exclusive holder of light.