What To Do When Your Friend Turns Anti-Mormon?

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The belief was scriptural. No one liked it. Some people talk as if Augustine and the rest wanted all the children damned.

If a teaching being abhorrent to us is license to throw it away that is opening a lot of doors we may not want to open.

Which scripture was that?

Edit:  It was woefully extrapolated from scripture that discussed original sin

Edited January 9, 2022 by SteveO

[sunstoned]

I left the church several years ago.  My neibours and the people in my old Ward know this only because I, and my family do not attend.  To keep the peace I do not discuss religion or politics with my friends (I only do that on this forum🙂). I won't be able to convince anyone of my ways, and they are not going to convince me to come around to their ways.  That kind of seems to be a fact of life, so why try, it just causes problems.  I think Jane might be angry or hurt.  This is often one of the phases one goes through when leaving something that was once held dear.  She might be lashing out in her anger.  But this phase will pass.  Don't react in a way that might permanently damage your relationship with her.

[GingerRed]

3 hours ago, Raingirl said:

How does gossiping about her help her? You gossiped to your friends. You even formed a group to gossip about her.  You are gossiping on the internet to strangers. Have you actually talked to Jane about why she joined a different church?  It wouldn’t surprise me if one of the reasons was that she found a place where she is not being judged and gossiped about by so-called “friends”. 
 

It seems you do not tolerate anyone who disagrees with you in any way. If you don’t want “backlash” from strangers, then don’t gossip to strangers. 

And how is your negative, judgmental, unfounded comments on here in any way being kind, helpful or empathetic?   My gosh, where is this coming from?? Are you always like this?

I did not 'form a group' to talk to these gals... they are  friends of both of ours. They all know Jane for some time. A couple of them were asking me after hearing about her posts on Facebook and was like what the heck is going with Jane?  So I private messaged the 4 of them and it was only the 5 of us discussing the situation.   And yes most of  know why Jane has left the church. That's one of the things she likes to keep repeating to anyone who will listen.   Some did not. It has nothing to do with what you so implied about our friendships.  You obviously had not taken the time to go back a look at all my other comments on here and what other kind, understanding advice I've been given. 

 

I came here because I've been a part of this forum years ago and consider most of the posters on here as friends. Some I've even met in person.  And I know there might be other posters here who might be in the same boat with people THEY know and could give me good advice, which most of them have so far, and are a being a great help. 

So if you have nothing to contribute in a mature manor, besides name calling and attacking...which is against this broads rules by the way...then I suggest you leave this post.

Edited January 9, 2022 by GingerRed

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Which scripture was that?

Edit:  It was woefully extrapolated from scripture that discussed original sin

Jesus teaching the necessity of baptism without giving exceptions.

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Jesus teaching the necessity of baptism without giving exceptions.

Right, so woefully extrapolated.  How would someone genuinely filled with hope, faith and charity apply that to infants?

 

[GingerRed]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Except she wasn’t interacting with Jane at all. At worse depending on how she did it, she was biasing her friends to see Jane the same way she sees her, but her intent Imo was to prepare her friends so they wouldn’t be thrown a loop and experience the same level of shock she did…which means less likely for conflict to occur, which is both protective of her other friends and of Jane. 

Thank you Calm.    No I wasn't trying to bias anybody, we needed to have this out in the open between the 5 of us who are LDS and are friends with Jane and who were also at the party..  Most of us already know she left the church and why. What some weren't aware of is the recent "declaration " post by Jane on her FB page that has us all wondering where this all came from.
 

In fact, what Jane is doing could be seen as abusive itself depending on how forceful she is doing it and if she allows them an out while talking with them or not if they are expressing a desire to change the subject or leave.  Given how Ginger described what happened at her house, it sounds like her friend did not want to be having the conversation that Jane was forcing on her and had froze because it was so unexpected. Ginger is potentially preventing similar abuse from happening by proactively sharing with her friends that they need to protect themselves. 

Yes, thank you!
 

The one issue I see as potentially problematic is if they hide they know about it, that they talked about her.  I don’t believe Ginger said they would not share with Jane if it came up that they had.  So this may be a false assumption (though I may have missed it).

Yes we too thought it best not to say anything til the subject comes up between us and Jane.  She'll find out eventually. By that time, we've all had time to think and not react in a knee -jerk way.

I don’t see anything inherently wrong with the talk if this is a close group, dependent on each other pretty much like family. I have a relative that is abusive in unexpected ways where at times they are the ones pushing for families to get together and then blowing up and sabotaging the gathering and making accusations right in front of children…who have been traumatized by this. My children will avoid any gathering they are at. The only way we as a family managed to figure out a decent way to deal with them to avoid the hard feelings for everyone and to protect our more vulnerable members was to get together and share our experiences and our plans, so no one was setting up expectations that others would feel blindsided by, including showing up at a gathering not realizing that relative was there when it was during a time you were the latest punching bag. 
 

And depending on what Jane is like, it can be dangerous to let someone abusive know you have helped others protect themselves. I got screamed at and threatened with legal action by my relative several times because if someone asked what had happened between us I was honest and did not pretend nothing was going on.  Now Jane may be nothing like that and doesn’t sound like that, so at this point I would encourage everyone to be open about what they have done, though certainly might be best to focus on the positive side such as not wanting to create awkward situations anymore for Jane as any other…when she does adjust, what happens to her if she looks back and realize that she has destroyed her relationships with her dear friends because no one did anything to help prevent that from happening?

No Jane hasn't reached that abusive stage yet, God forbid! But she is a very troubled person since her son was murdered 4 years ago. She is  in a fragile, vulnerable state of mind, open to anti Mormon suggestions I think.  She's very angry still at the church and her Bishop with whom she thought was being rude to her. But we have only her HER side of that story.

I think it wrong to cast Ginger as the bad guy when you don’t know the extent of what Jane has said and done since Ginger shared minimally.  There may be something in their history that Ginger has not shared or even really focused on that has made her feel so protective of her friends.  And if Ginger has overreacted because her safe place in her home has been violated, then she needs time to heal and feel safe again, not lectures that she is being selfish for wanting to feel safe.

Thank you 

Her friends have the right to choose whether or not to discuss the church with Jane. Jane has already demonstrated once she may not give them such a choice, intentionally or without realizing what she is doing. If she is using their good manners about not wanting to cause a scene at their friend’s home to force them to listen to her, Ginger is right Imo to share this info with other friends. Members not wanting to badmouth others has led to a number of people that I know being hurt when they learn that a fellow member defrauded a friend but no one warned them when it was clear someone else was at risk of being set up. I see this as similar.  If Jane is unintentionally putting her friends in unwanted situations, then being prepared may help her friends explain to her that she needs to find a better way to share her passion with others.  

Jane , like I said, has issues. We've all been there to support her through the years ,and pray for her and be there for her, .....like I said we've been doing things together since she left the church, we had her over for Christmas dinner, the 4 of us, (me and my roomies), I treated all of them to the movies last week to see American Underdog, one of Jane 's favorite football players.  And then a few days later this happens?? It kinda feels like...a betrayal , for lack of a better word.  Does that make sense? We're all still trying to make sense of it all right now! We've been blindsided. What the rest of my friends do now, in light of this knowledge ,is up to them.  If they want to stay friends with her, fine, if they want to distance themselves from her like I'm doing for the time being, fine.  That's their choice.

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by GingerRed

[kimpearson]

I have heard members my whole life criticize those of other faiths.  Here are just a few examples:

• It is so sad to go to funerals outside the Church.  They have no real understanding of the next life and have so little hope.
• I went into a Catholic church and it felt so dark with no spirit.  The pictures of the saints and Christ bothered me.
• I just don't think I could live life if I didn't have the Church.  I don't know how people who don't have a testimony of the truth can be happy.
• We have knowledge that no one else does, that is why we are the true Church of Jesus Christ.
• We are the only church with priesthood authority.  The ordinances of other church's have no worth in the eyes of God.
• I know this Church is the true Church and all the other churches are churches of men.
• I feel so bad for those who don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide them.  I don't know how they can get through life without that guidance.

You all know these thoughts and accept them because they are the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  You have heard them included in talks by Church leaders.  Now how do you think such beliefs go over with faithful believing members of other churches.  Now imagine a member who for whatever reason loses their faith in the Church.  They leave the Church and go to another church.  They find funerals that are happy and full of hope.  They find great peace in a catholic church and see thousands of others finding that same peace.  They find people living happy lives that are full and rich that are not members of the Church.  They find that many people in huge numbers disbelieve totally the unique claims of the Church and find such beliefs unchristian.  They find other people in other churches who devoutly believe they have received priesthood authority from God to perform ordinances.   They find people who believe the LDS church is untrue and their church is true.  They find people who have a devout belief in and devotion to following the Holy Spirit.  These people get answers to their prayers and feel the spirit guiding them.  This former member of the Church realizes that the picture painted of the outside world in many wards throughout the Church but especially in Utah is completely wrong.  Now why do you suppose they might get angry?

Please remember that we have no better proof in the truthfulness of our beliefs than any other believer in a different religion.  I am sure many of you will argue with me.  Your belief and faith is built entirely on your own experiences.  You cannot give those experiences to anyone else.  You can only tell others about them and what you did to feel the way you do and invite them to try the same things to see if they have the same personal experience.  Just remember that literally hundreds of millions have tried to some extent test your experience and they didn't find what you did.  You can think they are wrong but you have no way to prove that.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

One thing you have to understand about traditional Christians is that for many Protestant faiths, part of being a Christian’s means being extremely passionate and dumping all your emotion into your faith. Your friend may have experienced some gospel worship whiplash when they jumped into this new culture.
 

I served my mission in Kentucky and I saw numberless normal people go from conversational and level headed to full on Baptist/Pentecostal preacher the second the word “Jesus” was said. I attended a mega church where everyone in the crowd was acting in a way you would never see them act in public.

Not meaning to make fun, just pointing out the cultural difference. The Latter-day Saint culture is very different than Protestant cultures 

You really aren't serious are you? If you are, could you please fill me in on some of the fine points of "Protestant cultures as you know them to be?" I am a Baptist preacher; someone you just maligned. Tell me a bit more about my culture. What do your biases teach you that it means to be to be "full on Baptist/Pentecostal preacher?" Oh and I should tell you I just had the local Pentecostal pastor in my home yesterday. She was a delightful Godly lady, just like the President of the ward's Women's Relief Society, who was also in our home just a week or so ago. I wonder if you didn't know either of them if you could have determined who was which?
 

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, SteveO said:

It is not.  
 

Faith, hope and charity have to be actively set aside to believe and perpetuate a doctrine like infant baptism.

Believing that a baby should justly suffer the torments of hell for being unbaptized is not charitable and denies the justice and mercy of God.

Correcting people in error is charitable and Christlike.  Letting them continue on in error is not.

I am confused. I may be wrong, but I do not believe that Catholics have officially taught that unbaptized infants go to hell since the early middle ages. 

[Navidad]

Wow, what a great thread! Extremely enlightening!

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Right. But I am only saying that telling 1.3 billion Catholics they have no “faith, hope, or charity” seems at least as bad as saying Latter-day Saints aren’t real Christians. 

That the Catholic doctrine is or was wrong does not make Catholics out to have no "faith, hope, or charity". The doctrine is/was wrong. That's all.

[Raingirl]

12 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I have heard members my whole life criticize those of other faiths.  Here are just a few examples:

• It is so sad to go to funerals outside the Church.  They have no real understanding of the next life and have so little hope.
• I went into a Catholic church and it felt so dark with no spirit.  The pictures of the saints and Christ bothered me.
• I just don't think I could live life if I didn't have the Church.  I don't know how people who don't have a testimony of the truth can be happy.
• We have knowledge that no one else does, that is why we are the true Church of Jesus Christ.
• We are the only church with priesthood authority.  The ordinances of other church's have no worth in the eyes of God.
• I know this Church is the true Church and all the other churches are churches of men.
• I feel so bad for those who don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide them.  I don't know how they can get through life without that guidance.

You all know these thoughts and accept them because they are the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  You have heard them included in talks by Church leaders.  Now how do you think such beliefs go over with faithful believing members of other churches.  Now imagine a member who for whatever reason loses their faith in the Church.  They leave the Church and go to another church.  They find funerals that are happy and full of hope.  They find great peace in a catholic church and see thousands of others finding that same peace.  They find people living happy lives that are full and rich that are not members of the Church.  They find that many people in huge numbers disbelieve totally the unique claims of the Church and find such beliefs unchristian.  They find other people in other churches who devoutly believe they have received priesthood authority from God to perform ordinances.   They find people who believe the LDS church is untrue and their church is true.  They find people who have a devout belief in and devotion to following the Holy Spirit.  These people get answers to their prayers and feel the spirit guiding them.  This former member of the Church realizes that the picture painted of the outside world in many wards throughout the Church but especially in Utah is completely wrong.  Now why do you suppose they might get angry?

Please remember that we have no better proof in the truthfulness of our beliefs than any other believer in a different religion.  I am sure many of you will argue with me.  Your belief and faith is built entirely on your own experiences.  You cannot give those experiences to anyone else.  You can only tell others about them and what you did to feel the way you do and invite them to try the same things to see if they have the same personal experience.  Just remember that literally hundreds of millions have tried to some extent test your experience and they didn't find what you did.  You can think they are wrong but you have no way to prove that.

It is mind boggling to me why the OP and other church members are so threatened and judgmental when someone chooses to join another church.  There is no love shown for the person, just judgementalism and shunning. 

[GingerRed]

15 minutes ago, Navidad said:

You really aren't serious are you? If you are, could you please fill me in on some of the fine points of "Protestant cultures as you know them to be?" I am a Baptist preacher; someone you just maligned. Tell me a bit more about my culture. What do your biases teach you that it means to be to be "full on Baptist/Pentecostal preacher?" Oh and I should tell you I just had the local Pentecostal pastor in my home yesterday. She was a delightful Godly lady, just like the President of the ward's Women's Relief Society, who was also in our home just a week or so ago. I wonder if you didn't know either of them if you could have determined who was which?
 

You are a Baptist preacher? How cool is that! One of my roommates, who been my roommate for 8 years now...( think Golden Girls, lol) and she was brought up Southern Baptist. and we get long great!  She is now non-denominational ,and always been a good Christian woman. 

[SteveO]

21 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

we have no better proof in the truthfulness of our beliefs than any other believer in a different religion

Book of Mormon.  Next.

[GingerRed]

8 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

It is mind boggling to me why the OP and other church members are so threatened and judgmental when someone chooses to join another church.  There is no love shown for the person, just judgementalism and shunning. 

You still aren't reading my comments are ya?  I have already pointed out, it wasn't  her joining another church that's the problem....the problem was HER turning into ANTI Mormon......not just an ex-Mormon.  There has been no shunning or judgement against Jane in all these last 10 months. I also stated that I have more  NON LDS friends than LDS ones.  And we all get along fine.  I also have other LDS friends who left the church. And WE get along fine.  That's because they left the church and left it alone. They never bashed it in any way.

Edited January 9, 2022 by GingerRed

[Stargazer]

19 minutes ago, Navidad said:

You really aren't serious are you? If you are, could you please fill me in on some of the fine points of "Protestant cultures as you know them to be?" I am a Baptist preacher; someone you just maligned. Tell me a bit more about my culture. What do your biases teach you that it means to be to be "full on Baptist/Pentecostal preacher?" Oh and I should tell you I just had the local Pentecostal pastor in my home yesterday. She was a delightful Godly lady, just like the President of the ward's Women's Relief Society, who was also in our home just a week or so ago. I wonder if you didn't know either of them if you could have determined who was which?
 

You have to understand that not all Baptists are like you. 

One of my sons married the daughter of a Baptist preacher. This Baptist preacher once told my son (who was inactive LDS) that if he saw two Mormon missionaries walking or riding their bikes down the road, and he thought he could get away with it, then he'd run them down and hope they died. I don't know if he was serious or not, but... wow.

I've met some Southern Baptists, for example, who were anything but Christian in their approach to, for example, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Sometimes the lived experience of one does not match what another might have seen themselves. It doesn't necessarily invalidate the one's lived experience.

He was generalizing from having seen something happen with, he said, a large number of people he interacted with. I don't think it was directed at every Baptist, or every Baptist preacher.

[JLHPROF]

54 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I have heard members my whole life criticize those of other faiths.  Here are just a few examples:

• It is so sad to go to funerals outside the Church.  They have no real understanding of the next life and have so little hope.
• I went into a Catholic church and it felt so dark with no spirit.  The pictures of the saints and Christ bothered me.
• I just don't think I could live life if I didn't have the Church.  I don't know how people who don't have a testimony of the truth can be happy.
• We have knowledge that no one else does, that is why we are the true Church of Jesus Christ.
• We are the only church with priesthood authority.  The ordinances of other church's have no worth in the eyes of God.
• I know this Church is the true Church and all the other churches are churches of men.
• I feel so bad for those who don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide them.  I don't know how they can get through life without that guidance.

These statements all tactless.  And yet all true (mostly - I disagree about Catholic churches).

Just because something is true doesn't make it ok to express it.

Edited January 9, 2022 by JLHPROF

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

It is mind boggling to me why the OP and other church members are so threatened and judgmental when someone chooses to join another church.  There is no love shown for the person, just judgementalism and shunning. 

Precisely what you have been exhibiting.

And I don't think you've been reading what @GingerRed has been writing. She's actually addressed pretty much all of your griping remarks by this point in the thread, yet you are still in there repeating the same old complaints.

 

[SteveO]

24 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am confused. I may be wrong, but I do not believe that Catholics have officially taught that unbaptized infants go to hell since the early middle ages. 

Sure.  Changed to Limbo, then changed to something else.  Even the Catholics don’t do much by way of defending it.  It’s because it isn’t scriptural, and instead based on the uncharitable writings of a few commentators.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Right, so woefully extrapolated.  How would someone genuinely filled with hope, faith and charity apply that to infants?

 

The same way someone who is filled with hope, faith, and charity believes in polygamy or that Abraham was commanded to kill his son or that God sends millions of his children to this earth to live in horrible and even torturous conditions. 

[SteveO]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The same way someone who is filled with hope, faith, and charity believes in polygamy or that Abraham was commanded to kill his son or that God sends millions of his children to this earth to live in horrible and even torturous conditions. 

Good point, but I would counter that the doctrine condemned unbaptized infants to hell indefinitely as I understand it.  There is a horrific, irredeemable finality to one, and not the others

Edited January 9, 2022 by SteveO

[bsjkki]

31 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

It is mind boggling to me why the OP and other church members are so threatened and judgmental when someone chooses to join another church.  There is no love shown for the person, just judgementalism and shunning. 

My spouse has drilled into me to avoid 'alls' and 'everythings.' Don't you think this statement deserves some qualifiers? 

 

[Navidad]

15 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You have to understand that not all Baptists are like you. 

Thanks, but most Baptists are also not unlike me. Some of the things in this thread are based on anecdotal experiences that are then generalized about an entire group. Person X goes to a church where Pentecostals handle snakes and comes out declaring that all Pentecostals handle snakes (actually less than 1/10th of 1% do)! This happens on all sides of all debates like this. A snarky LDS missionary knocks on my sister's door and badmouths Mennonites (my sister is a strong leader in the Mennonite community where she lives). She then writes me and says "How can you be involved with such hateful people like the Mormons?" Then I have to remind her that many, indeed most members of the LDS church are not like that missionary. We each believe our lived experience is the truth, without realizing it is only our truth. The faithful LDS member who runs into a snarky Fundamentalist at Temple Square might mirror image my sister in the opposite direction. 

I looked up the Centerpoint Church's website. I found it confusing and unsettling. The church at one time was affiliated with the Evangelical Free Church - a wonderful and compassionate Evangelical group. I have preached in many E-Free churches and have many E-Free friends. Then I listened carefully to the pastor's introductory remarks on the "About Us" page. I didn't like some of his comments about the culture and people of the Utah Valley. It is clear to me he has a bee in his bonnet about the LDS church. I don't know what he teaches or preaches. But as an Evangelical, I was a bit discomforted by listening to the code words he used in his talk.

I was wondering because I have been told that there are something like five Mennonite church affiliated churches in and around the greater Salt Lake City area who have dropped the Mennonite name and who are finding success with a generic community-type name. I was very curious to see if Centerpoint Church is one of them. It doesn't seem that it is. I was relieved! The Centerpoint Church mentions no current affiliation with any Evangelical or Fundamentalist group on their website. That is a red flag to me. Some of the most strident folks come out of a faith tradition where they have no oversight other than their local leaders. That is rarely good in my experience.  Take care and best wishes.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

47 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

That the Catholic doctrine is or was wrong does not make Catholics out to have no "faith, hope, or charity". The doctrine is/was wrong. That's all.

Um… that’s not what the prophet said: “he that supposeth that little children need baptism ”

So it’s specially calling out anyone that thinks little children should be baptized as hell-bound and bereft of faith hope and charity. 

[CV75]

5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Also “Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither ^afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.”

Hell is a place of learning, and the suffering largely the difficult adjustment to new light and knowledge. An good person can still be in the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity by no fault of their own, and in this case hell will be relatively, briefly unpleasant, at least on this point. So these ideas need to be presented in the broader context of the Plan of salvation to be properly understood and appreciated. No doctrinal point should be used as a hammer, especially in isolation from other or all the points.