What To Do When Your Friend Turns Anti-Mormon?

[3DOP]

08) Everyone goes either to heaven or to hell, and the Council of Florence affirms that "“The souls of those who die in actual mortal sin, or only in Original Sin, immediately descend into Hell”, according to your citation. The Catholic Church obviously agrees with the ecumenical council as do I. The Catholic Church also teaches through the liturgy and her creeds that the Son of God went to Hell. The Old Testament affirms that the dead go to Hell, without exception. Heaven isn't open yet. This is explained when Jesus tells the story of Lazarus, the beggar who went to Hell, but who was with Abraham, and the Patriarchs, and all the saved of the Old Testament who were awaiting the Redeemer to come and deliver "captivity captive". When the rich old man who wouldn't help Lazarus asked for a drop of water to cool his tongue, he was told that while they were in the same place, there was a "great gulf fixed", so that the inhabitants of hell were divided and could not pass to and fro. This is the Hell, the Limbo of the Fathers, into which Christ descended when the Catholic Church recites in the Apostles' Creed: "He descended in to Hell". The Catholic Church denies that Christ suffered the fires of Hell as much as she denies that Abraham or Lazarus suffered the fires of Hell. This is the Hell from which Christ ascended when in the Traditional Roman Mass we see, immediately after the consecration of the Body and Blood of Christ, God's priest unite the actions of the liturgy with the actions of God's only begotten Son, saying to the Father,

"Wherefore, O Lord, we Thy servants, as also Thy holy people, calling to mind the blessed Passion of the same Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, His resurrection from hell...

---cont.

According to both the Councils of Florence, as of that of the 2nd of Lyons in 1274, we find that the quote which you were provided Stargazer, is cut short. From 2nd Lyons:

"The souls of those who die in mortal sin, or with original sin only...immediately descend to hell, yet to be punished with different punishments." (Dz. 464)

From Florence:

"Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds." (Dz. 694) 

The punishment of which those who are found to be natural children of Adam, and who descend in to hell without actual sin, is only deprivation of the supernatural goods which they could never have merited or accepted. As with Abraham and the rest who were saved in hell, in a Limbo of the Fathers, so with those who never commit either actual sin, or actual virtue. At worst, there continues to remains a "great gulf fixed", that separates the inhabitants of hell who are suffering from positive sense pain, and those who are "suffering" from a loss that they cannot quite understand. As with the Fathers before being led to heaven so with those who might go to Hell without actual sin. For these there is an habitation which is enjoyable and compatible with a state of "natural bliss", according to St. Thomas Aquinas. All the dead go to Heaven or Hell. But the condition and punishments of Hell are very different, according to degree of malice. In hell, when there is neither malice nor vice, neither is there sensible suffering, nor supernatural bliss, no partaking of the divine nature spoken of by St. Peter. 

Many, even Christians, would be ecstatically happy to be assured of a place of immortality, without fear of bodily weakness or death, and where one is able to exercise their mental powers in the pursuit of truth, goodness, and beauty forever.

It is true, the Catholic Church has never finally defined the certainty of a limbo of the children similar to the limbo of the fathers. But she has defined that those who never commit actual sin can suffer sense punishment in Hell. It seems to many of us to be unjust, if dead unbaptized babies merit the same exaltation as martyrs for Christ. Nevertheless, we are not precluded from believing just that. Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) affirmed what has become the probable teaching for the fate of the unbaptized infant, even as the Church allows one to believe that all dead unbaptized babies might go to Heaven:

"The punishment of original sin is deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell."  (Dz. 410) This would be the "different kinds of punishment" that were being mentioned by the Councils of 2nd Lyons as well as of Florence. A Catholic cannot believe that those who die in original sin only, will endure the same punishment as those who actually commit sin. That is certain.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

---continued

I propose that the author of the passage from Moroni 8, whether he is from the 4th or the 19th Century, is outspoken against a teaching which was never held by the Catholic Church. It seems that in large part, there is an unwarranted assumption on the part of the author, as well as the majority of his subsequent LDS readers, that infant baptism implies that the minister of the baptism necessarily believes that the baby will endure hellfire if not for baptism.

Stargazer. I appreciate your reply to my claim. However, I think it failed to appreciate what the Councils mean by "different kinds of punishment". Perhaps you unknowingly obtained the quotations from a source that was trying to make it seem like the Catholic Church taught babies burned in hellfire? It also failed to recognize that in Augustine's own time, he was being opposed by other Church Fathers. The Church has always looked for at least a consensus of the Fathers to affirm what the Church teaches. This was lacking, even in the 4th Century. You asked more than once why there should be any urgency about infant baptism, unless there is terrible suffering without it. The urgency of infant baptism for Catholics is a recognition of the loss of the infused virtues of faith, hope, and charity which are gifts received at baptism through the faith of the Church, on behalf of the infant. Naturally Catholic parents want this for their child, and for all children. But this is without the fear for the child of burning in hell.

(the use of Dz. indicates a standard Catholic reference book, the Sources of Catholic Dogma, originally compiled by Henry Denzinger. Completed in 1854, updated editions have been published throughout the years which still identify with Denzinger.)

Rory   

Edited January 16, 2022 by 3DOP