Popular Post GingerRed Posted January 9, 2022 Author Popular Post Posted January 9, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Raingirl said: Just more excuses to cover your own bad behavior. I call it gossip because that’s what it is. You don’t care about Jane or your friends. You only care about how this affects you and your plans. You need to “prepare” your friends for potential bad-mouthing of the church? Why is that your job? And how immature are they if they can’t handle something like that? This reminds me of the man who abuses his wife and then claims it’s “for her own good”. I'm sorry you feel that way. Yes I do care about Jane. I worry about her, as I know she's going thru a tough time. You don't know anything about me or my friends. I never said any of us would not love or care about her anymore. When one of us is sick or going through hard times, we let each other know. This is no different. How can we help her if we don't know what's wrong? This is why we will now all continue to keep her in our prayers. I would like to keep this conversation positive if you don't mind. I'm not here to be called names. I'm hurting too. And whats being said so far, ( except from you) is helping me to calm down and listen to offers of help. I don't need backlash from strangers, please. Okay? Edited January 9, 2022 by GingerRed 5
Popular Post SteveO Posted January 9, 2022 Popular Post Posted January 9, 2022 17 minutes ago, Raingirl said: This reminds me of the man who abuses his wife and then claims it’s “for her own good”. Very poor analogy 5
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 21 minutes ago, GingerRed said: I have never told anyone their church is "wrong". I have more non LDS friends than LDS friends of all faiths. We share back and forth the good of both. “Let me say that we appreciate the truth in all churches and the good which they do. We say to the people, in effect, you bring with you all the good that you have, and then let us see if we can add to it." President Gordon B Hinckley Also “Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.” 1
carbon dioxide Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, CA Steve said: I know, right? It's not like we have 60,000 members± throughout the world trying to convince non members why our church is right and theirs is wrong. It has been many years since my mission but do not remember ever ranting at anyone why their views were wrong. Being a good missionary is like being a good salesman. You spend your time focusing the benefits and great things of the product you present to the client. Wasting a bunch of time complaining about the defects of the competition does not show the client why they should buy what you are selling. Would you buy something from someone who focused on the competition of the product be offered to you? Edited January 9, 2022 by carbon dioxide 1
SteveO Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Also “Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.” Yes the belief is wrong. It was not, and is not a kind teaching for the mothers and fathers of millions of infants who have died without baptism. Edited January 9, 2022 by SteveO 1
Raingirl Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 9 minutes ago, GingerRed said: I'm sorry you feel that way. Yes I do care about Jane. I worry about her, as I know she's going thru a tough time. You don't know anything about me or my friends. I never said any of us would not love or care about her anymore. When one of us is sick or going through hard times, we let each other know. This is no different. How can we help her if we don't know what's wrong? This is why we will now all continue to keep her in our prayers. I would like to keep this conversation positive if you don't mind. I'm not here to be called names. I'm hurting too. And whats being said so far, ( except from you) is helping me to calm down and listen to offers of help. I don't need backlash from strangers, please. Okay? How does gossiping about her help her? You gossiped to your friends. You even formed a group to gossip about her. You are gossiping on the internet to strangers. Have you actually talked to Jane about why she joined a different church? It wouldn’t surprise me if one of the reasons was that she found a place where she is not being judged and gossiped about by so-called “friends”. It seems you do not tolerate anyone who disagrees with you in any way. If you don’t want “backlash” from strangers, then don’t gossip to strangers. -2
MrShorty Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 After my wife left the Church, I found the Marriage on a Tightrope podcast, and have found it helpful. While the podcast mostly focuses on marriages, I think many of the principles that Allan and Kattie (and their guests) talk about are helpful for other LDS Ex-LDS relationships. You might try episode 112 (Nov 22 2021) because it is a short synopsis of some ideas. I also found David Ostler's "Bridges" a helpful text. Even though Jennifer Finlsaysen Fife (and Schnarch, from whom she takes a lot of her principles) focuses here work on sexuality, I find many of the same principles useful in mixed faith relationships. She has done a few podcasts with different interviewers that may be useful. Find JFF's podcast archive and search for "mixed faith" and see what you can find. 2
JAHS Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 1 hour ago, 2BizE said: You love them. You accept that they can change beliefs and that is fine. Remember, there is an article of faith we believe in that says just that. Agreed, but it makes it worse when they take your grandchildren with them and the sealing they had with your child no longer means anything to them.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 23 minutes ago, SteveO said: Yes the belief is wrong. It goes way beyond that. It says if you believe that you are in the “gall of bitterness” and “bonds of iniquity”. If you believe it, you have no faith hope or charity. If you believe it when you die you will go to hell.
SteveO Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 Just now, SeekingUnderstanding said: It goes way beyond that. It says if you believe that you are in the “gall of bitterness” and “bonds of iniquity”. If you believe it, you have no faith hope or charity. If you believe it when you die you will go to hell. Yeah, telling a grieving mother and father that the roads of hell are paved with the skulls of unbaptized infants will tend to give give that characterization. The belief was gross. Period. That the teaching has softened since doesn’t mean it wasn’t gross for hundreds of years, up to and including the time the BoM was published.
carbon dioxide Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 30 minutes ago, Raingirl said: How does gossiping about her help her? You gossiped to your friends. You even formed a group to gossip about her. You are gossiping on the internet to strangers. Have you actually talked to Jane about why she joined a different church? It wouldn’t surprise me if one of the reasons was that she found a place where she is not being judged and gossiped about by so-called “friends”. It seems you do not tolerate anyone who disagrees with you in any way. If you don’t want “backlash” from strangers, then don’t gossip to strangers. Since her real name is not given, I would not classify this as gossip.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 11 minutes ago, SteveO said: Yeah, telling a grieving mother and father that the roads of hell are paved with the skulls of unbaptized infants will tend to give give that characterization. The belief was gross. Period. That the teaching has softened since doesn’t mean it wasn’t gross for hundreds of years, up to and including the time the BoM was published. Right. But I am only saying that telling 1.3 billion Catholics they have no “faith, hope, or charity” seems at least as bad as saying Latter-day Saints aren’t real Christians. 2
SteveO Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Right. But I am only saying that telling 1.3 billion Catholics they have no “faith, hope, or charity” seems at least as bad as saying Latter-day Saints aren’t real Christians. It is not. Faith, hope and charity have to be actively set aside to believe and perpetuate a doctrine like infant baptism. Believing that a baby should justly suffer the torments of hell for being unbaptized is not charitable and denies the justice and mercy of God. Correcting people in error is charitable and Christlike. Letting them continue on in error is not. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, SteveO said: Correcting people in error is charitable and Christlike. Letting them continue on in error is not. Which is exactly what “Christians” are doing when they “correctly” inform you that you aren’t “Christian”.
Fether Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, GingerRed said: Hello all.....I haven't posted here in a long time...but I wanted feedback from you guys. Your opinions I have always held in high regard. I live in Utah. 10 months ago, a good friend of mine I've know for several years, ( I'll just call her Jane for privacy) who used to be a faithful Latter Day Saint, left the LDS church to join the Centerpoint church. Her many LDS friends, including myself, tried to be understanding, kind and remained her friends to show we still care whether she was Mormon or not. We noticed that Jane had gone out and got a nose ring and some tattoos. Umm....okay. Going a bit rogue, much? Ok fine we can handle that, not big deal. However...3 days ago she posted on her Facebook page her "announcement" to declare to all that she left our church, to become....a Christian! BECOME a Christian?? Since when was she NOT one? She went on to spout the usual anti Mormon propaganda we've all heard before.... we worship Joseph Smith over Jesus....heck we even sing about Joseph more than Jesus! The bible is the only true scripture...yadda yadda. Excuse me??? I really had to sit on my hands not to call her out and make a comment that she's been LDS long enough to KNOW what she's now saying is BS!! She's telling lies that she KNOWS she telling lies! I am so appalled and flabbergasted! I did not see this coming. I'm wondering who is feeding her this crap? Her declaration post almost sounded scripted to me. Like someone put her up to it. I did a group discussion on my messenger to my LDS friends who know her, to let them know about this sudden turn around and to join me me in keeping Jane in our prayers. One of the gals told me something Jane did to her that I knew nothing about til now. I hold an annual Christmas party at my house. Jane kinda cornered my friend, who's faithful LDS, into a discussion of why she left our church and what was wrong with it! What? She did that to one of MY guests in MY home?? Fortunately my friend is a strong person and held her own against this little onslaught. Anyway after a lengthy discussion we have decided not to include her in our gettogethers anymore as now she would make my LDS friends uncomfortable around her. This all makes me SOO sad! Right now, I want nothing more to do with her and she is not welcome at my home for the time being. She is going down a dark path, and I don't want those bad vibes in my house. I don't care about her being in another religion, more power to her if that's what makes her happy. BUT...to turn around and attack my faith that I hold dear...that's crossing the line! If you insult my faith you insult me. I also want to know if anyone has any knowledge about this Centerpoint church and is they who Jane is getting this crazy misinformation from? Is this what they teach? GingerRed One thing you have to understand about traditional Christians is that for many Protestant faiths, part of being a Christian’s means being extremely passionate and dumping all your emotion into your faith. Your friend may have experienced some gospel worship whiplash when they jumped into this new culture. I served my mission in Kentucky and I saw numberless normal people go from conversational and level headed to full on Baptist/Pentecostal preacher the second the word “Jesus” was said. I attended a mega church where everyone in the crowd was acting in a way you would never see them act in public. Not meaning to make fun, just pointing out the cultural difference. The Latter-day Saint culture is very different than Protestant cultures Edited January 9, 2022 by Fether 3
SteveO Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Which is exactly what “Christians” are doing when they “correctly” inform you that you aren’t “Christian”. Well, unlike critics of the church, I’m able to cope with people incorrectly “informing” me.
Popular Post Calm Posted January 9, 2022 Popular Post Posted January 9, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Raingirl said: This reminds me of the man who abuses his wife and then claims it’s “for her own good”. Except she wasn’t interacting with Jane at all. At worse depending on how she did it, she was biasing her friends to see Jane the same way she sees her, but her intent Imo was to prepare her friends so they wouldn’t be thrown a loop and experience the same level of shock she did…which means less likely for conflict to occur, which is both protective of her other friends and of Jane. In fact, what Jane is doing could be seen as abusive itself depending on how forceful she is doing it and if she allows them an out while talking with them or not if they are expressing a desire to change the subject or leave. Given how Ginger described what happened at her house, it sounds like her friend did not want to be having the conversation that Jane was forcing on her and had froze because it was so unexpected. Ginger is potentially preventing similar abuse from happening by proactively sharing with her friends that they need to protect themselves. The one issue I see as potentially problematic is if they hide they know about it, that they talked about her. I don’t believe Ginger said they would not share with Jane if it came up that they had. So this may be a false assumption (though I may have missed it). I don’t see anything inherently wrong with the talk if this is a close group, dependent on each other pretty much like family. I have a relative that is abusive in unexpected ways where at times they are the ones pushing for families to get together and then blowing up and sabotaging the gathering and making accusations right in front of children…who have been traumatized by this. My children will avoid any gathering they are at. The only way we as a family managed to figure out a decent way to deal with them to avoid the hard feelings for everyone and to protect our more vulnerable members was to get together and share our experiences and our plans, so no one was setting up expectations that others would feel blindsided by, including showing up at a gathering not realizing that relative was there when it was during a time you were the latest punching bag. And depending on what Jane is like, it can be dangerous to let someone abusive know you have helped others protect themselves. I got screamed at and threatened with legal action by my relative several times because if someone asked what had happened between us I was honest and did not pretend nothing was going on. Now Jane may be nothing like that and doesn’t sound like that, so at this point I would encourage everyone to be open about what they have done, though certainly might be best to focus on the positive side such as not wanting to create awkward situations anymore for Jane as any other…when she does adjust, what happens to her if she looks back and realize that she has destroyed her relationships with her dear friends because no one did anything to help prevent that from happening? I think it wrong to cast Ginger as the bad guy when you don’t know the extent of what Jane has said and done since Ginger shared minimally. There may be something in their history that Ginger has not shared or even really focused on that has made her feel so protective of her friends. And if Ginger has overreacted because her safe place in her home has been violated, then she needs time to heal and feel safe again, not lectures that she is being selfish for wanting to feel safe. Her friends have the right to choose whether or not to discuss the church with Jane. Jane has already demonstrated once she may not give them such a choice, intentionally or without realizing what she is doing. If she is using their good manners about not wanting to cause a scene at their friend’s home to force them to listen to her, Ginger is right Imo to share this info with other friends. Members not wanting to badmouth others has led to a number of people that I know being hurt when they learn that a fellow member defrauded a friend but no one warned them when it was clear someone else was at risk of being set up. I see this as similar. If Jane is unintentionally putting her friends in unwanted situations, then being prepared may help her friends explain to her that she needs to find a better way to share her passion with others. Edited January 9, 2022 by Calm 8
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, SteveO said: Well, unlike critics of the church, I’m able to cope with people incorrectly “informing” me. I think you meant unlike “the individual who started the topic” who happens to be a faithful believing member.
SkyRock Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 I had a conservation once with someone who grew up Catholic in west Texas. He said he was called non Christian regularly. Likewise a Lutheran. It isn't just LDS that get that privilege. 1
SteveO Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I think you meant unlike “the individual who started the topic” who happens to be a faithful believing member. No, I’m talking about critics of the church, yourself included
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, SteveO said: No, I’m talking about critics of the church, yourself included Oh i see. I think you have the wrong thread. This thread is about a Latter-day Saint who is offended that her friend is now anti-Mormon and saying offensive things like Latter-day Saints aren’t Christian.
SteveO Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 6 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Oh i see. I think you have the wrong thread. This thread is about a Latter-day Saint who is offended that her friend is now anti-Mormon and saying offensive things like Latter-day Saints aren’t Christian. Right thread. And I’m talking about critics of the church, yourself included -1
Peacefully Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 One of the things that kind of bugs me about the church is how many people think they have a right to discuss my business. Ward councils, ministering brothers and sisters, RS presidency, EQ Presidency, etc. All taught to return and report. I think that filters to the general membership thinking they have rights to discuss anything about another member if they think it is for their own good. Not sure where I am going with this, but just love your friend, and stop talking about her behind her back. Let your other friends deal with her on their own terms. I know how upsetting this can be. All five of my children have left the church for various reasons, but I’ve come to terms with it, and it’s certainly not worth losing family members or friends over because Heavenly Father will make all things right in the end. 4
rpn Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 You could just post at the end of hers: I'm sorry you worshipped Joseph Smith and I'm glad you are worshipping Jesus Christ now. OR Godspeed in your journey of discipleship of Jesus Christ, I hope you find your way to Him. OR I worship Jesus Christ myself and I'm a member of the restored Church of Jesus Christ OR "you are a beloved daughter of Heavenly Parents with a Savior who know you intimately and well, by name in every moment of your life. Godspeed on your journey to return to Them. OR some other thing that doesn't take her or her down and asserts truth. You will give her words more eyes and attention in any attempt to defend the church, than you will by simply loving her. And you can reach out in some simple way from time to time by a note to stay in touch. I wouldn't refuse to have her in my home because of her changed belief. 2
The Nehor Posted January 9, 2022 Posted January 9, 2022 2 hours ago, SteveO said: Yeah, telling a grieving mother and father that the roads of hell are paved with the skulls of unbaptized infants will tend to give give that characterization. The belief was gross. Period. That the teaching has softened since doesn’t mean it wasn’t gross for hundreds of years, up to and including the time the BoM was published. The belief was scriptural. No one liked it. Some people talk as if Augustine and the rest wanted all the children damned. If a teaching being abhorrent to us is license to throw it away that is opening a lot of doors we may not want to open. 1
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