The LDS Church as a Percentage of Worldwide Christianity - Competition, Threat or ????

[Navidad]

As most of you know, my mind tends to go all over the place. Last night I got into bed thinking about the comment made by someone here on another thread that the offshoot groups (my term) within Mormonism are not really in competition with or a threat to the big LDS organization. I don't dispute that at all. It did make me think of a broader question - uh oh, Navidad is thinking again - that is trouble!

Is the LDS church really in competition with or a "threat" to the larger Christian community in the world? If I would suggest that there may be 400,000 folks in all the offshoot Mormon groups (including the 250,000 in The Community of Christ) and 16,000,000 in the LDS church, then the offshoot groups together represent a group that is 2.5% of the size of the LDS church. They are apparently insignificant as a competitor or threat to the "mother" church.

If there are 2,500,000,000 in the Christian world-wide community and 16,000,000 in the LDS Church, then the LDS church represents a group that is .64 or less than 1% of the size of the larger Christian community. So, is the LDS community in competition with or a threat to the larger Christian community? What does this data say about how the "onlyism" of the LDS (broad use) mindset registers within the overall Christian community? The Mormon Christian identity is such a tiny percentage of that of the whole, less than that of the offshoot groups in relation to the mother church? Do numbers correlate in some way with significance? I am not sure they do. If, however the offshoots of Mormonism are not significant to the LDS church, what does that say about LDS significance in the worldwide Christian community? Somehow it boggles my mind (not a challenging task) to think that a group that is less than 1% of the total has a truth claim of being the "only." The LeBaron and other Firstborn communities here in Mexico are a tiny group within the Mormon tradition, but they are vocal and powerful in a number of ways, far beyond what their numbers would suggest.

Does the LDS church have a sense of itself in competition with or a threat to the rest of Christianity? Certainly its exclusive truth claims would indicate that, at least they do to me. It is challenging for me to discuss this since I have so very many close friends and acquaintances in the LDS church and the broader Christian community. Is the relative size of the LDS community in relation to the rest of Christianity something that is ever discussed when Saints get together? I know in the spiritual dimension, what Christ thinks is really what matters, but there is certainly a finite human dimension to this as well, the importance of which cannot be underestimated.

I value your thoughts, especially when my mind is boggled! Help me, if possible to unboggle it! Thanks!

Edited November 12, 2021 by Navidad
typo

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Does the LDS church have a sense of itself in competition with or a threat to the rest of Christianity?

I certainly don't. I want other Christian churches to thrive and be a force for good in the lives of their adherents and in the world. The fact that many churches in my nation are in terminal decline makes me sad. We Latter-day Saints are simply too few in number to be doing all the work the Lord needs doing. One of the lessons I learnt very clearly as a missionary is that a person's initial conversion to Christ (along with other good things) is very often accomplished through the testimonies and ministering of fellow Christians. Without them, there would be very few people open to the message of the Restoration.

I have supported the relief efforts of a Quaker church by showing up every month to load a truck. I have volunteered in an orphanage run by the Adventists. I have attended Latter-day Saint worship services in an Armenian Apostolic Church after ours was destroyed by an arsonist. And so on. One would have to be wilfully blind not to see all the good that our fellow Christians are accomplishing. What would be the point of 'threatening' that???

At the same time, I ache to share all the unique blessings of the Restoration with everyone. These two things are in no way exclusive.

Quote

Is the relative size of the LDS community in relation to the rest of Christianity something that is every discussed when Saints get together?

Sure. I think we're quite mindful of our situation. Where I live, we make up a small fraction of 1 per cent of the population nationally. At the same time, our 'presence' is sometimes exaggerated. For example, we would have almost universal name recognition (enough to show up in jokes on the television). I read once that we comprised more than 10 per cent of all Christians in church on Sunday in my nation as well, though I'm unsure how accurate that is.

I have read research suggesting that our education levels and culture often result in something a bit like our Jewish brothers, where we tend to take over a bit despite small numbers. For example, I once lived in a city in the American West that had about 15 per cent Latter-day Saint population, but the mayor and all five members of the council were active Church members.

I work in our local parliament here. The party that I work for employs 27 advisers across offices, and four of us are Latter-day Saints (15 per cent). This is in a jurisdiction where active Saints would make up just over 0.1 per cent of the population. There are actually more of us working in parliament than there are Catholics, which is our largest Christian faith body by far. It's crazy.

I think you would find that when Saints discuss their relative numbers, many of us would have a sense of our role somewhat like that of Joseph in Egypt. We may be only one, but the Lord has a work for us to do, and the impact of our labours may be significant.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

My opinion is insignificant, so don't mind me, but had to think, what about Christianity and Muslims? How do they compare? Aren't Muslims competing pretty well? Makes me think no organization should call themselves the "onlies".

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Tacenda

[smac97]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

As most of you know, my mind tends to go all over the place. Last night I got into bed thinking about the comment made by someone here on another thread that the offshoot groups (my term) within Mormonism are not really in competition with or a threat to the big LDS organization.  I don't dispute that at all. It did make me think of a broader question - uh oh, Navidad is thinking again - that is trouble!  Is the LDS church really in competition with or a "threat" to the larger Christian community in the world? If I would suggest that there may be 400,000 folks in all the offshoot Mormon groups (including the 250,000 in The Community of Christ) and 16,000,000 in the LDS church, then the offshoot groups together represent a group that is 2.5% of the size of the LDS church. They are apparently insignificant as a competitor or threat to the "mother" church.  If there are 2,500,000,000 in the Christian world-wide community and 16,000,000 in the LDS Church, then the LDS church represents a group that is .64 or less than 1% of the size of the larger Christian community. So, is the LDS community in competition with or a threat to the larger Christian community?

No.  But perhaps the relationship could be seen as less adversarial and more collaborative and contributory.  Consider these:

• "The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." (Matthew 13:33)
• "And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?  It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."  (Luke 13:20-21)
• "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men."  (Matthew 5:13)
• "And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw."  (1 Nephi 14:12)

I've always been comfortable with distinguishing the overall growth of the Church from the truthfulness of its message.  The Church is as true today with its many millions of members as it was in 1830 with six.  We of course should continue the pursue the mandates given to us, including the Great Commission.  But I don't think the Church was ever intended to be the Holy Roman Empire, or the Catholic Church, or some other worldwide "religious" superpower.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

What does this data say about how the "onlyism" of the LDS (broad use) mindset registers within the overall Christian community? The Mormon Christian identity is such a tiny percentage of that of the whole, less than that of the offshoot groups in relation to the mother church? Do numbers correlate in some way with significance? I am not sure they do.

I agree.  To the extent the institutional Church is to have an influence, I don't think that influence is supposed to be political, or military, or financial, or medical, or technological, or in music/entertainment, or in news/media, and so on.  Rather, its mandates are to perfect the Saints, proclaim the Gospel, redeem the dead, and care for poor and needy.  The Church has many thousands of buildings, hundreds of temples, tens of thousands of missionaries, and extensive humanitarian and educational endeavors.

If there were a facet of society where the Church has an obvious and substantial and overside "sphere of influence" (aside from the quality of its members and their cumulative "leavening" influence on their communities/societies), I would point to . . . family history work.  I think the Church is a recognized leader in that field, which is notable given Malachi's prophecy about Elijah:

Quote

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

There are still more things that will happen in the future, I believe.  

• “Before the great day of the Lord shall come, … the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose” (D&C 49:24).  I think this is starting to happen.  
• Also: "Near the time of the coming of Jesus Christ, the faithful Saints will build a righteous city, a city of God, called the New Jerusalem. Jesus Christ Himself will rule there. (See 3 Nephi 21:23–25; Moses 7:62–64; Articles of Faith 1:10.)"
• The literal gathering of the Ten Tribes.  
• A temple in Jerusalem, and one in New Jerusalem.
• The gathering at Adam-ondi-Ahman.
• Two witnesses in Jerusalem.  

I think the institutional Church will be involved in most or all of these.  

I'm not really that concerned about how much "the World" takes notice of these things.  That's not the predominating metric by which I gauge the role of the Church.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

If, however the offshoots of Mormonism are not significant to the LDS church, what does that say about LDS significance in the worldwide Christian community?

I think that comment was more responsive to a new offshoot group with far-right tendencies (Qanon stuff) than about being in competition with the Church.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Somehow it boggles my mind (not a challenging task) to think that a group that is less than 1% of the total has a truth claim of being the "only."

Per this website, there were an estimated 218,000 Christians worldwide in 200 A.D., out of an estimated population of 190-256 million.  If we assume a global population of 216 million (the average of the estimated population in 200 AD), Christians constituted a percentage of about .1% of the global population.  If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, then that truth is not negated by his followers only constituting .10% of the world 200 years after His birth.

The Church was founded in 1830.  A bit less than 200 years later, in 2016, there were 15,882,417 members of the Church, out of an estimated worldwide population of 7,464,022,049.  The Church, then, constitutes about .21% of the global population.  If the Church is what it claims to be, then that truth is not negated by its membership only constituting .21% of the world 200 years after its founding.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

The LeBaron and other Firstborn communities here in Mexico are a tiny group within the Mormon tradition, but they are vocal and powerful in a number of ways, far beyond what their numbers would suggest.

I don't see much in the way of "leavening" from these groups.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Does the LDS church have a sense of itself in competition with or a threat to the rest of Christianity?  Certainly its exclusive truth claims would indicate that, at least they do to me.

No, I don't think it does.  

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

It is challenging for me to discuss this since I have so very many close friends and acquaintances in the LDS church and the broader Christian community. Is the relative size of the LDS community in relation to the rest of Christianity something that is every discussed when Saints get together?

Not in my experience.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 12, 2021 by smac97

[Olmec Donald]

 

I am absolutely certain that I speak for that extra-special, extra-intelligent .0043% of the membership of this board in saying... wait... what was the question??

Seriously, I think many religions teach or at least logically imply "onlyism" with their most conspicuous beliefs, but then over time evolve their followers towards forsaking "us versus them" in favor of drawing a bigger circle and seeing only "us".   I think there may be a universal curriculum that is taught in many different ways.  

Edited November 12, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[2BizE]

I think the church has little relevance in the larger Christian community.  We don’t even follow the traditional Christian events other than Christmas. The church does have the most money, but is just hoarding it. The growth rate of the church continues to decrease and is currently less than 1%.  The church also continues to trim numbers of wards and stakes as well as activities that help showcase our religion (ie. Pageants). 

I think this trend will continue for the church to become less and less relevant on the world stage.  It primarily has local influence in Utah, SE Idaho and parts of Arizona.

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/membership.php
 

[bluebell]

I really liked Pres. Oak's talk at October's General Conference, where he said:

"Today, my message concerns such good and religious-minded people who have stopped attending or participating in their churches. When I say “churches,” I include synagogues, mosques, or other religious organizations. We are concerned that attendance in all of these is down significantly, nationwide. If we cease valuing our churches for any reason, we threaten our personal spiritual life, and significant numbers separating themselves from God reduce His blessings to our nations.

Attendance and activity in a church help us become better people and better influences on the lives of others. In church we are taught how to apply religious principles. We learn from one another. A persuasive example is more powerful than a sermon. We are strengthened by associating with others of like minds. In church attendance and participation, our hearts are, as the Bible says, “knit together in love.”

He does go on in the talk to speak about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically, but I appreciated that he began be reminding people that all churches are important as they can bring people closer to God and help mold us into good human beings.

Edited November 12, 2021 by bluebell

[mfbukowski]

Exclusivity, it seems is a constant drum beat we find here lately.

We don't find ourselves to be exclusive, but let's assume we did for the sake of argument.

So, if some organization IS "exclusive", would one assume it to be the largest or the smallest of it's kind of organization?

Merriam Webster:

Quote

 

exclusive

 adjective

ex·clu·sive | \ ik-ˈsklü-siv  , -ziv \

Essential Meaning of exclusive

1: not shared : available to only one person or group "We have exclusive use of the beach. [=we are the only ones who can use the beach]The company has exclusive rights to (use) the logo.an exclusive interview"

2: only allowing in people from a high social class "He belongs to an exclusive club.an exclusive hotel, an exclusive party"

3: available to only a few people because of high cost, exclusive suburban neighborhoods "She attended an exclusive private school.one of the city's most exclusive restaurants"

 

So IF we wanted to be exclusive, would having more or fewer members be most desirable?

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I think the church has little relevance in the larger Christian community.  We don’t even follow the traditional Christian events other than Christmas. The church does have the most money, but is just hoarding it. The growth rate of the church continues to decrease and is currently less than 1%.  The church also continues to trim numbers of wards and stakes as well as activities that help showcase our religion (ie. Pageants). 

I think this trend will continue for the church to become less and less relevant on the world stage.  It primarily has local influence in Utah, SE Idaho and parts of Arizona.

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/membership.php
 

I don't think we are even close to having as much money as the Catholic church does.

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I think this trend will continue for the church to become less and less relevant on the world stage.  It primarily has local influence in Utah, SE Idaho and parts of Arizona.

Less relevant in THIS country, but not on the "world stage".

We have more members now in other parts of the world than we do in the USA, because the USA and Western Europe in general is becoming Godless

[mfbukowski]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think we are even close to having as much money as the Catholic church does.

Probably not even close.  The value of the art and real estate, the relics, the historic artifacts.......  wow!

If that stuff went to auction.....  ??!!

But hey we've got some old wagons here..... 

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Probably not even close.  The value of the art and real estate, the relics, the historic artifacts.......  wow!

If that stuff went to auction.....  ??!!

But hey we've got some old wagons here..... 

 

Think about the value of Vatican City alone.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Think about the value of Vatican City alone.

109 acres vs 10 acres, 400 AD vs 1850 AD (approx times they were building the Vatican vs the temple)…we have a way to go to catch up.

 

 

Does anyon know how to make images smaller on the board when copy pasting?

Edited November 12, 2021 by Calm

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

As most of you know, my mind tends to go all over the place. Last night I got into bed thinking about the comment made by someone here on another thread that the offshoot groups (my term) within Mormonism are not really in competition with or a threat to the big LDS organization. I don't dispute that at all. It did make me think of a broader question - uh oh, Navidad is thinking again - that is trouble!

Is the LDS church really in competition with or a "threat" to the larger Christian community in the world? If I would suggest that there may be 400,000 folks in all the offshoot Mormon groups (including the 250,000 in The Community of Christ) and 16,000,000 in the LDS church, then the offshoot groups together represent a group that is 2.5% of the size of the LDS church. They are apparently insignificant as a competitor or threat to the "mother" church.

If there are 2,500,000,000 in the Christian world-wide community and 16,000,000 in the LDS Church, then the LDS church represents a group that is .64 or less than 1% of the size of the larger Christian community. So, is the LDS community in competition with or a threat to the larger Christian community? What does this data say about how the "onlyism" of the LDS (broad use) mindset registers within the overall Christian community? The Mormon Christian identity is such a tiny percentage of that of the whole, less than that of the offshoot groups in relation to the mother church? Do numbers correlate in some way with significance? I am not sure they do. If, however the offshoots of Mormonism are not significant to the LDS church, what does that say about LDS significance in the worldwide Christian community? Somehow it boggles my mind (not a challenging task) to think that a group that is less than 1% of the total has a truth claim of being the "only." The LeBaron and other Firstborn communities here in Mexico are a tiny group within the Mormon tradition, but they are vocal and powerful in a number of ways, far beyond what their numbers would suggest.

Does the LDS church have a sense of itself in competition with or a threat to the rest of Christianity? Certainly its exclusive truth claims would indicate that, at least they do to me. It is challenging for me to discuss this since I have so very many close friends and acquaintances in the LDS church and the broader Christian community. Is the relative size of the LDS community in relation to the rest of Christianity something that is ever discussed when Saints get together? I know in the spiritual dimension, what Christ thinks is really what matters, but there is certainly a finite human dimension to this as well, the importance of which cannot be underestimated.

I value your thoughts, especially when my mind is boggled! Help me, if possible to unboggle it! Thanks!

I think competition and threat are in the eyes of the beholder, and I do not see the Church seeing herself that way. If any Christian of any denomination feels threatened, competitive, or inclined to threatened, they need to repent.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Probably not even close.  The value of the art and real estate, the relics, the historic artifacts.......  wow!

If that stuff went to auction.....  ??!!

But hey we've got some old wagons here..... 

 

Hey, I'll just take the Michelangelo painted interior of the Sistine Chapel.  I kind of would like that thing with Adam reaching out to God.   That's a pretty good LDS theme.  Two embodied beings like that reaching out to each other?

Yah, I'd take it.   Probably worth a few BUK's... if I sold myself into slavery.   I could probably find a buyer for it.   I used to be in the gallery biz....But getting old and stuff? And inflation?  A BUK doesn't go as far as it used to... 

 

[Amulek]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

Somehow it boggles my mind (not a challenging task) to think that a group that is less than 1% of the total has a truth claim of being the "only."

A number of denominations claim to be the "one true church," including the Catholic church, the Eastern Orthodox church, and even (it seems) at least one group of Mennonites (Holdeman Mennonites). 

The restored church of Jesus Christ makes this claim as well. All that matters is whether or not that claim is true, not how many people subscribe to it. 

Does it not equally boggle your mind to think that one rabbi and a handful of his students could claim to know the "only" way to return to the Father? The only way to be authentically Jewish?

If the truthfulness of a proposition - say, for example, 'no man cometh unto the Father but by me' - were to be determined solely by number of adherents, then perhaps the religious leaders of the day were right to have Christ executed. After all, only a tiny percentage of the total Jewish population actually followed him; ergo, he must not have been the true Messiah. 

 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, 2BizE said:

I think the church has little relevance in the larger Christian community.  We don’t even follow the traditional Christian events other than Christmas. The church does have the most money, but is just hoarding it. The growth rate of the church continues to decrease and is currently less than 1%.  The church also continues to trim numbers of wards and stakes as well as activities that help showcase our religion (ie. Pageants). 

I think this trend will continue for the church to become less and less relevant on the world stage.  It primarily has local influence in Utah, SE Idaho and parts of Arizona.

http://www.fullerconsideration.com/membership.php
 

Hmmm….I am not impressed with their methodology for projecting future trends on those graphs.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Hmmm….I am not impressed with their methodology for projecting future trends on those graphs.

The former and active member look identical in slope for the past 20 years but they project active membership to drop while former members continue to grow at the same rate.  Wonder how they got there?

[kimpearson]

I was born in 1961 in an almost exclusively LDS community in Idaho.  Ezra Taft Benson hunted pheasants with my dad and I had personal conversations with him a couple of times.  Spencer W Kimball slept at my cousin's house (stake president) numerous times and I got to meet him.   Almost every stake conference through my teen years included an apostle.  We had youth devotionals at Ricks almost every year with senior apostles or members of the first presidency.  I sat in the Tabernacle numerous times for conference and got to meet general authorities that my dad knew through scouting.  I am not trying to brag but I am trying to demonstrate that I heard the words of these men personally time and time again.  An almost constant theme of every one of them was that the Church was growing like crazy because it was going to fill the ends of the earth and become a dominant force in the world.  President Kimball even made a video that explained how the Church was going to fill the earth.  I was personally told by several general authorities that I would witness growth in the Church beyond which I could ever imagine and that I needed to prepare to serve a mission to be part of this glorious work.  Sunday school lessons, priesthood lessons, sacrament talks, stake conference talks and general conference talks were full of this idea of incredible growth in the future and we were part of it.  Through out the 80's while I was on my mission and attending BYU, I hear talk after talk pointing to the increasing growth rate of the Church as evidence of future unbelievable growth.  Many members talked about the Church growing into the 100's of million.  Then the 90's hit with the introduction of the internet which exploded in the 2000's.  In the early 90's all the talk was how the internet would help the growth of the Church through family history work and that was a main reason why God revealed the technology behind the internet and computers.  Then something changed and the growth rate started falling in the mid 90's and continued falling through today.  All those talks and lessons I used to hear about unimaginable growth and covering the earth changed.  The focus and discussion switched to covering the earth in Temples.  You almost never hear talk now about the Church becoming really big as shown in the discussions above. 

 

So in answer to your question.  Yes member of the Church and its leaders in the past saw themselves in competition with the rest of Christianity.  This includes every current senior leader of the Church.  This view was publicly expressed while the growth rate supported it but ceased as the growth rate fell.  I know many traditional believing members still hold this belief in their hearts as I hear it expressed occasionally in testimonies, talks and classes.  I wonder sometimes what senior church leaders truly believe in their hearts but the modern church is very good at keeping leader's public expressions within the current official message as determined by the 1st Presidency and Quorum of the 12.  I think many members realize there is no current evidence that the Church is in any real way competing with other churches.  The common view I hear is "we are the special few" with further explanation depending on a traditional or progressive viewpoint.  Traditionalists seem to be saying we special few will survive and be there at the end when Christ comes to be part of the winning side.  We will work really hard to find those other special few hidden throughout the earth.   Most everyone else is unfortunately on the wrong side and will not be with God in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.  We will be friends with everyone.  Progressives seem to be questioning more and more the exclusiveness of the Church's being the one true church.  It seems to me that the active progressive members see the Church as true but see truth in other churches and believe any good person will be accepted by God and we will all be together and happy without focusing on an exclusive celestial kingdom.  Many progressive members have become disenchanted with the exclusive truth claims of the Church and see the lack of importance of the Church in the world contrary to what they feel they were taught growing up as evidence that the Church is just another church.

[The Nehor]

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, Amulek said:

A number of denominations claim to be the "one true church," including the Catholic church, the Eastern Orthodox church, and even (it seems) at least one group of Mennonites (Holdeman Mennonites). 

The restored church of Jesus Christ makes this claim as well. All that matters is whether or not that claim is true, not how many people subscribe to it. 

Does it not equally boggle your mind to think that one rabbi and a handful of his students could claim to know the "only" way to return to the Father? The only way to be authentically Jewish?

If the truthfulness of a proposition - say, for example, 'no man cometh unto the Father but by me' - were to be determined solely by number of adherents, then perhaps the religious leaders of the day were right to have Christ executed. After all, only a tiny percentage of the total Jewish population actually followed him; ergo, he must not have been the true Messiah. 

 

I certainly agree that there are other denominations/churches/groups that claim exclusivity and onlyism. No debate about that. I am an equal opportunity rejecter (not a word) of all such claims whether from a Mormon, Mennonite, Methodist, or Catholic group. I would suggest that all such claims are not absolute Truth, regardless of their origin or who makes them.

I also agree with you that the statement "no man cometh unto the Father but by me" is True. It is a simple statement of fact. Christ will be the final judge, jury, prosecutor, and advocate (all wrapped up in one Person) for every individual who ultimately spends eternity with His Father.  He (Christ) alone holds the keys to eternity with Him and His Father. Where we probably disagree is on the criteria He will use in that decision. The statement in John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me" outlines the centrality of Christ's role in our future destiny. It says nothing about the criteria He will use in making that decision for each of all humanity from all time. I believe the foundation of the decision will be based on His perfect mercy and righteousness. What it means for any one individual is way above my pay grade. There is a wideness in God's mercy; and a great significance in His righteousness. I certainly don't trust in my own worthiness; that is why I need the atonement.  At the same time I am not a universalist. Certainly there are those who thought they would, but do not end up with eternal life with the Father and Son.

I also agree with you that truth is not based on the number of adherents to that truth. I would only add the word "absolute" to what you said and  a capital T to the particular truth. There is a difference between the "truthfulness" of a proposition and a proposition that is "absolutely Truth." I believe the truthfulness of any group's claim to doctrinal exclusivity is truth for the faithful of that group, but not absolute Truth - for all places, times, and people. Methinks there must be a difference between personal and individual truth and transcendent Truth - that Truth that transcends time, culture, and place. That my wife is the best wife in the world is my truth - near, dear, real, and very personal to me. It is not however, transcendent Truth. I must recognize that, as many other husbands would disagree with me in defense of their own wife. I must also bring humility to my defense of the truth of my own individual interpretation of scripture and faith as I read and live it. Certainty is not a Christ-like virtue. It is not something for which I strive in my life. I find growth in exploring and examining my own uncertainty. I enjoy dialogue and discussion; not so much debate. Take care!

Edited November 13, 2021 by Navidad

[RevTestament]

On 11/12/2021 at 11:38 AM, Calm said:

109 acres vs 10 acres, 400 AD vs 1850 AD (approx times they were building the Vatican vs the temple)…we have a way to go to catch up.

 

 

Does anyon know how to make images smaller on the board when copy pasting?

If there is a way, it would be a little complex, and you would probably have to use some code every time. The simpler way is to use an image editor 1st to shrink the image before pasting it.

[2BizE]

On 11/12/2021 at 8:49 AM, bluebell said:

I don't think we are even close to having as much money as the Catholic church does.

How much money do you think the church has?

[mrmarklin]

47 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

How much money do you think the church has?

You realize that the Vatican has its own bank.     Right?

The LDS church is very wealthy, measured in absolute terms. The church has a much discussed wealth fund, real estate all over the world and buildings. I really wouldn’t hazard a guess, but billions. 
 

All of you here should visit the Vatican.  The art treasures alone are worth billions. And all the art owned by the church is not in the Vatican. The Catholic Church owns real estate all over the world and educational institutions have quite a bunch of endowment money. 
 

What both churches have in common is that all the wealth divided by the number of members isn’t really all that. 
 

Norway, for example, has a wealth fund of over a trillion dollars.  The population is less than six million. You do the math. 
 

Is LDS church  rich?  Yes, but it’s all relative. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by mrmarklin

[mrmarklin]

On 11/12/2021 at 10:38 AM, Calm said:

109 acres vs 10 acres, 400 AD vs 1850 AD (approx times they were building the Vatican vs the temple)…we have a way to go to catch up.

 

 

Does anyon know how to make images smaller on the board when copy pasting?

St Peter’s was totally rebuilt beginning the 1500s as a part of the Catholic Reformation. And took a long time to complete. So not as old as you would think.  Vatican City wasn’t recognized as a legal entity until mid twentieth century.