New Schisms: Denver Snuffer and Phil Davis

[smac97]

Does anyone have a feel for how Denver Snuffer's group is doing?  Is it growing?  Is it making inroads into the membership of the Church?  He was excommunicated lost his membership in 2013.  I would have thought that innovativeness of his movement would have been more pronounced and visible during its first few years, yet I hardly hear anything about him.

Mr. Snuffer continues to post on his blog (the most recent entry is dated October 26, 2021).  His blog includes these links:

Quote

IMPORTANT LINKS

Learn of Christ

Scripture Project

Request Baptism

Find a Fellowship

Sacrament

The "Request Baptism" link takes you to https://bornofwater.org/, which includes instructions for those who want to be baptized:

Quote

Is there Someone in my Area?

No matter where you are in the world, chances are we can put you in contact with someone who has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize you. The most effective way to find someone is to place a baptism request by selecting “Post a Baptism Request” from the menu. Also, from time to time as we become aware of authorized baptizers traveling, we will post their dates and cities here.

There will be an authorized baptizer at the following locations on the dates noted below:

Currently Nothing Pending

At first I thought this "Currently Nothing Pending" message was perhaps just a transitory thing.  However, the above link also has this:

Quote

Record Your Baptism: Once you have been properly baptized, please visit the Recorder’s Clearinghouse to have your name added to the annual record book. This step allows your baptism to be recorded on earth and in heaven. It does not make you part of any church or organization. The record is kept confidential.

The "Recorder's Clearinghouse" link here takes you to https://www.recordersclearinghouse.com/, which does not list the baptisms.  It does, however, include blog entries from the "Recorder," named Keith.  The last entry is dated November 25, 2020.  And what entries there are seem to consist of Keith's private musings.  Several of the 2020 entries (there are 11 entries for the entire year) pertain to Covid.  Some entries (e.g. this one) reference funds collected for the construction of a temple.  There were only 3 entries for all of 2019, and the preceding years are similarly low on content and substance.

Perhaps the best resource for information about Mr. Snuffer is a website: https://www.restorationarchives.com/library/snuffer.php, which includes links to compilations of Mr. Snuffer's writings.  They are fairly extensive.

Also, I hadn't heard of this one (Phil Davis) :

Quote

Over the last year, I’ve scrolled past social media posts by members of diverse religious backgrounds and political opinions. However, because my ethnographic research is based in Mormon fundamentalist communities, a good amount of the commentary I see leans libertarian or conservative and comes from communities that developed at a time of perceived religious and cultural uncertainty. These new Mormon religious communities—new religions really—bring together shifting religious landscapes and anxieties about everyday life in ways that seldom make sense to the casual observer.

Fusing the Restored Gospel to any particular political ideology / trend / fad seems like a recipe for disaster.

That said, I don't want to delve into the "political" aspects of the story at the above link, and I ask that we not go there in this thread.  I provide the above only as context and as a segue into the topic of Phil Davis.  Read on:

Quote

Snuffer’s movement is distinctly religious, with few political claims. However, in the wake of the global pandemic, some sought answers that moved beyond the spiritual realm. Enter Phil Davis, a member of the LDS Church known for the artisan chocolate shop that he co-owned with Morgan Coleman in downtown Provo, UT. As of 2020, Davis is the head chocolatier at Small Batch Cacao.

While most know him for his chocolates, some also know him as the End Times Servant who was called to gather the elect and prepare for the return of Jesus Christ. His movement, Doctrine of Christ, isn’t large, but constitutes one of the latest expressions of Mormonism that speaks to the context that we find ourselves in. According to Davis, an angel visited him in his chocolate shop, followed by a translated being who authorized him into a new Terrestrial Order of the Church. 

Doctrine of Christ takes the Snuffer claim a step further, arguing that Brigham Young had the priesthood revoked in the 1830s. After supposedly murdering Joseph Smith, Young claimed ownership of the Church and led it down the path to ruin. However, in recent times, Joseph Smith returned to inaugurate a re-restoration at the hand of the Davidic Servant, Phil Davis.

Earlier this year, the movement linked the perceived apostasy of the LDS Church to the political claims that circulated in conspiracy circles, beginning with the Church’s endorsement of “globalist agendas” and promotion of the “secret combinations” that control the Covid-19 narrative. Under an image of Russell M. Nelson, the group wrote: 

“Our research demonstrates that this tyrant is using a false pandemic to force the world to accept a vaccination. This ‘cure’ will make most people who receive it susceptible to a ‘wild virus.’ This may surface later on, after most of the entire human population’s immune systems weaken due to the vaccine.”

According to Doctrine of Christ supporters, the virus and subsequent vaccine is part of the “Arch Tyrant” plan to depopulate 90% of the earth. One article pointed to the United Nations as central to this mission, with others citing the Illuminati, Masons, Jesuits, and other entities historically linked to end times apocalypticism. The conspiracies that found their place in American homes and internet forums became doctrine.

Currently, Doctrine of Christ has 367 YouTube subscribers and 231 followers on social media. The movement is small, but its existence makes sense within the context of new Mormon groups that emerged within the last decade, and it’s likely to continue growing. Davis and his community harnessed a desire for enchantment that many no longer find in the LDS Church, and the conspiracies provide a comforting response to a chaotic world. In a time of heightened skepticism toward various establishments, he spoke to a craving for independence, both politically and religiously. 

When I first posted about this new group on social media, it was met with interest and several people expressing that the Brigham Young conspiracy would make a great movie. Well, they’re in luck. Phil Davis and the Doctrine of Christ anticipate a movie premier, The Return of Joseph Smith, on April 15 at Thanksgiving Point in Lehi, UT. The movie offers an alternate history to the LDS succession era, and answers people’s deepest questions as they seek meaning in an uncertain world.

Mr. Davis' website: https://doctrineofchrist.com/

His YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/DoctrineofChrist/videos

Several dozen videos, but the views are fairly small (a few hundred per each).

So, thoughts?  What is the status of these movements?  

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Does anyone have a feel for how Denver Snuffer's group is doing?  Is it growing?  Is it making inroads into the membership of the Church?  He was excommunicated lost his membership in 2013.  I would have thought that innovativeness of his movement would have been more pronounced and visible during its first few years, yet I hardly hear anything about him.

Mr. Snuffer continues to post on his blog (the most recent entry is dated October 26, 2021).  His blog includes these links:

The "Request Baptism" link takes you to https://bornofwater.org/, which includes instructions for those who want to be baptized:

At first I thought this "Currently Nothing Pending" message was perhaps just a transitory thing.  However, the above link also has this:

The "Recorder's Clearinghouse" link here takes you to https://www.recordersclearinghouse.com/, which does not list the baptisms.  It does, however, include blog entries from the "Recorder," named Keith.  The last entry is dated November 25, 2020.  And what entries there are seem to consist of Keith's private musings.  Several of the 2020 entries (there are 11 entries for the entire year) pertain to Covid.  Some entries (e.g. this one) reference funds collected for the construction of a temple.  There were only 3 entries for all of 2019, and the preceding years are similarly low on content and substance.

Perhaps the best resource for information about Mr. Snuffer is a website: https://www.restorationarchives.com/library/snuffer.php, which includes links to compilations of Mr. Snuffer's writings.  They are fairly extensive.

Also, I hadn't heard of this one (Phil Davis) :

Fusing the Restored Gospel to any particular political ideology / trend / fad seems like a recipe for disaster.

That said, I don't want to delve into the "political" aspects of the story at the above link, and I ask that we not go there in this thread.  I provide the above only as context and as a segue into the topic of Phil Davis.  Read on:

Mr. Davis' website: https://doctrineofchrist.com/

His YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/DoctrineofChrist/videos

Several dozen videos, but the views are fairly small (a few hundred per each).

So, thoughts?  What is the status of these movements?  

Thanks,

-Smac

I think The Eastern Lightning pulls away from their particular corner of the market.

[ksfisher]

38 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Earlier this year, the movement linked the perceived apostasy of the LDS Church to the political claims that circulated in conspiracy circles, beginning with the Church’s endorsement of “globalist agendas” and promotion of the “secret combinations” that control the Covid-19 narrative. Under an image of Russell M. Nelson, the group wrote: 

“Our research demonstrates that this tyrant is using a false pandemic to force the world to accept a vaccination. This ‘cure’ will make most people who receive it susceptible to a ‘wild virus.’ This may surface later on, after most of the entire human population’s immune systems weaken due to the vaccine.”

According to Doctrine of Christ supporters, the virus and subsequent vaccine is part of the “Arch Tyrant” plan to depopulate 90% of the earth. One article pointed to the United Nations as central to this mission, with others citing the Illuminati, Masons, Jesuits, and other entities historically linked to end times apocalypticism. The conspiracies that found their place in American homes and internet forums became doctrine.

The sounds like something out of a B-grade 60's-70's spy movie. 

I'm trying to figure out what I would get out of depopulating the earth if I was the Arch Tyrant.  Shorter lines at Disney Land?  Nothing else comes to mind.

[Kenngo1969]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The sounds like something out of a B-grade 60's-70's spy movie. 

I'm trying to figure out what I would get out of depopulating the earth if I was the Arch Tyrant.  Shorter lines at Disney Land?  Nothing else comes to mind.

Now, there's a man who has his priorities straight!

[rongo]

My cousin and his very large family are "Snufferites," although he is quick to point out that the movement is extremely loosely organized, such that it has no organization. It's also really a la carte as far as following Snuffer (many people disagree with many of his things; e.g., new scripture, his temple, etc.). It is almost solely families meeting as families in people's homes, with no meta-oversight by a larger organization. In my cousin's case, he's extremely well-read and informed about the Church and Church history, past and present. His parents and siblings are solid, active mainstream Mormons. 

We had an extended family picnic with my mother's family when my son returned from his mission this summer, and I always enjoy talking to him. His wife's parents recently were re-baptized into our church, which interested me (and made me happy. His wife still solidly feels like they have made the right decision. We all still hope they will return). Nobody would think anything was amiss in talking to them; unless speaking specifically about Snufferism, they are 100% conversant and comfortable in a mainstream Mormon setting or conversation. They seem "normal," other than their views on our modern prophets and apostles (they believe that their authority and keys have been taken, and that the families have all the authority they need). 

The "movement" does not seem to be thriving (as in, growing numerically). It seems to me to be pretty fledgling, small, and ad hoc. The only threat to the Church is when people are unable to resolve their concerns about modern prophets and apostles --- it can be appealing to people who strongly believe in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. 

[Tacenda]

58 minutes ago, rongo said:

My cousin and his very large family are "Snufferites," although he is quick to point out that the movement is extremely loosely organized, such that it has no organization. It's also really a la carte as far as following Snuffer (many people disagree with many of his things; e.g., new scripture, his temple, etc.). It is almost solely families meeting as families in people's homes, with no meta-oversight by a larger organization. In my cousin's case, he's extremely well-read and informed about the Church and Church history, past and present. His parents and siblings are solid, active mainstream Mormons. 

We had an extended family picnic with my mother's family when my son returned from his mission this summer, and I always enjoy talking to him. His wife's parents recently were re-baptized into our church, which interested me (and made me happy. His wife still solidly feels like they have made the right decision. We all still hope they will return). Nobody would think anything was amiss in talking to them; unless speaking specifically about Snufferism, they are 100% conversant and comfortable in a mainstream Mormon setting or conversation. They seem "normal," other than their views on our modern prophets and apostles (they believe that their authority and keys have been taken, and that the families have all the authority they need). 

The "movement" does not seem to be thriving (as in, growing numerically). It seems to me to be pretty fledgling, small, and ad hoc. The only threat to the Church is when people are unable to resolve their concerns about modern prophets and apostles --- it can be appealing to people who strongly believe in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. 

Do you think they joined the Snufferites because Denver believes JS never lived polygamy, but only spiritually? Also, do they believe that tithing is on "interest" not "income"? 

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Do you think they joined the Snufferites because Denver believes JS never lived polygamy, but only spiritually? Also, do they believe that tithing is on "interest" not "income"? 

Not in their case, no. They had absolutely no issue with mainstream "gross" tithing (they weren't trying to nickel and dime God, a la Bill Reel), and Joseph Smith polygamy isn't an issue for them. They come from families that knew all about that and many other things. For them, it was more a belief that the Church isn't guided by revelation today, because of shortcomings and choices since the Heber J. Grant administration. When they were going down that road, his brothers asked me to read Snuffer's "Passing of the Heavenly Gift" and give my thoughts so we could discuss it (it didn't faze them, but it was a big influence on their brother). 

When I spoke with him this summer and asked about the impact this has had on her parents, I was surprised to learn that they had left the Church with them, but had recently been rebaptized. I didn't know they had gone along with them in the first place. 

He's not bitter at the Church at all, and he doesn't regard me/his family or others as idiots because they don't see things that way he does. He knows that his family and I know everything he does, and he's not dead-set on winning us over. 

[smac97]

23 hours ago, rongo said:

My cousin and his very large family are "Snufferites," although he is quick to point out that the movement is extremely loosely organized, such that it has no organization.

Do these folks have a designation/appellation for themselves?  Do they consider "Snufferite" to have a pejorative meaning?  What do you think we should call them so as to minimize the risk of giving offense to them?

23 hours ago, rongo said:

It's also really a la carte as far as following Snuffer (many people disagree with many of his things; e.g., new scripture, his temple, etc.). It is almost solely families meeting as families in people's homes, with no meta-oversight by a larger organization. In my cousin's case, he's extremely well-read and informed about the Church and Church history, past and present. His parents and siblings are solid, active mainstream Mormons. 

I wonder about the long-term prospects of such an "a la carte," take-only-what-you-like-and-leave-the-rest approach to fundamental issues.  Mr. Snuffer does seem to have a very atypical approach to leadership.

23 hours ago, rongo said:

We had an extended family picnic with my mother's family when my son returned from his mission this summer, and I always enjoy talking to him. His wife's parents recently were re-baptized into our church, which interested me (and made me happy. His wife still solidly feels like they have made the right decision. We all still hope they will return). Nobody would think anything was amiss in talking to them; unless speaking specifically about Snufferism, they are 100% conversant and comfortable in a mainstream Mormon setting or conversation. They seem "normal," other than their views on our modern prophets and apostles (they believe that their authority and keys have been taken, and that the families have all the authority they need). 

That's an interesting perspective.

23 hours ago, rongo said:

The "movement" does not seem to be thriving (as in, growing numerically). It seems to me to be pretty fledgling, small, and ad hoc. The only threat to the Church is when people are unable to resolve their concerns about modern prophets and apostles --- it can be appealing to people who strongly believe in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. 

It seems that when people leave the Church, there are not very many viable options for going "deeper."  Mr. Snuffer's group doesn't seem to be panning out.  Other schismatic sects don't seem to be reaching the sort of critical mass necessary to take off on their own.  Polygamist sects are there, but I think polygamy is not everyone's cuppa.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 11, 2021 by smac97

[Bob Crockett]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Does anyone have a feel for how Denver Snuffer's group is doing?  Is it growing?  Is it making inroads into the membership of the Church?  He was excommunicated lost his membership in 2013.  I would have thought that innovativeness of his movement would have been more pronounced and visible during its first few years, yet I hardly hear anything about him.

Mr. Snuffer continues to post on his blog (the most recent entry is dated October 26, 2021).  His blog includes these links:

The "Request Baptism" link takes you to https://bornofwater.org/, which includes instructions for those who want to be baptized:

At first I thought this "Currently Nothing Pending" message was perhaps just a transitory thing.  However, the above link also has this:

The "Recorder's Clearinghouse" link here takes you to https://www.recordersclearinghouse.com/, which does not list the baptisms.  It does, however, include blog entries from the "Recorder," named Keith.  The last entry is dated November 25, 2020.  And what entries there are seem to consist of Keith's private musings.  Several of the 2020 entries (there are 11 entries for the entire year) pertain to Covid.  Some entries (e.g. this one) reference funds collected for the construction of a temple.  There were only 3 entries for all of 2019, and the preceding years are similarly low on content and substance.

Perhaps the best resource for information about Mr. Snuffer is a website: https://www.restorationarchives.com/library/snuffer.php, which includes links to compilations of Mr. Snuffer's writings.  They are fairly extensive.

Also, I hadn't heard of this one (Phil Davis) :

Fusing the Restored Gospel to any particular political ideology / trend / fad seems like a recipe for disaster.

That said, I don't want to delve into the "political" aspects of the story at the above link, and I ask that we not go there in this thread.  I provide the above only as context and as a segue into the topic of Phil Davis.  Read on:

Mr. Davis' website: https://doctrineofchrist.com/

His YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/DoctrineofChrist/videos

Several dozen videos, but the views are fairly small (a few hundred per each).

So, thoughts?  What is the status of these movements?  

Thanks,

-Smac

He's still a partner in a law firm. 

[rongo]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Do these folks have a designation/appellation for themselves?  Do they consider "Snufferite" to have a pejorative meaning?  What do you think we should call them so as to minimize the risk of giving offense to them?

Those I know don't go by "Snufferite," but aren't overly touchy about it if referred to as such. It's really quite balkanized and manifests in free home church associations (several families). They consider themselves to be Mormon --- or at least, believers in the Restoration scriptures and Joseph Smith. They have either been excommunicated (if their rebaptism is know, if stakes want to pursue that), or have quit attending and associating with their wards, but still have their names on Church records. I don't have any ideas about a catch-all name for them, and a catch-all is probably not good, anyway, because they differ widely within their home church associations. 

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wonder about the long-term prospects of such an "a la carte," take-only-what-you-like-and-leave-the-rest approach to fundamental issues.  Mr. Snuffer does seem to have a very atypical approach to leadership.

I didn't think Snuffer wanted to head a movement, but then he started his scripture projects, so he does seem to hokie-pokie towards that, tentatively. He hasn't broken out and overtly started a movement --- it was more his books and fireside tour, and recommendations that people be rebaptized. One question I have is how they see authority from within the movement. All ordinances I've seen are people who already had ordinations through the Church (they would regard the excommunications as having no effect on that). But, what about succeeding generations? Is authority seen as being an infinite regress of derivative authority from their former ties to the Church? Or, do they see themselves as being authorized to confer priesthood and perform ordinances?

I think many of the families seem like they will see a big loss of continuity among their children and future grandchildren ---- with many of them finding their way back to the Church. They are embedded within LDS communities and extended family groups, and have a lot of work, school, and community contact with regular Mormons. They don't stand out in clothing, technology, etc., and readily talk about missions, the Church, etc. with friends and neighbors if it comes up, without seeking to evangelize. I think you're correct that it won't survive generationally. 

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

It seems that when people leave the Church, there are not very many viable options for going "deeper."  Mr. Snuffer's group doesn't seem to be panning out.  Other schismatic sects don't seem to be reaching the sort of critical mass necessary to take off on their own.  Polygamist sects are there, but I think polygamy is not everyone's cuppa.

"Snufferites," for lack of a better term, are very anti-polygamy. Many form quite sophisticated (but wrong) arguments laying it at Brigham Young's feet, not Joseph Smith's, but this is not universal. Many are also quite comfortable with Joseph Smith's polygamy, including polyandry and teenage wives. They would very much beg to differ about their ability to "go deeper" untethered from the Church. Many are very well-read and sophisticated about past and current Church history and teachings, and they don't feel any discomfort or inhibitions about delving deeper, looking at sources, etc. One appeal for the general movement is that it is very anti-Correlation, and it is attractive for those who see the heavy influence of PR on the Brethren, framing of things, and attempts to control narratives as problematic. But, polygamy is not their jam. 

[rpn]

They call  themselves The Remnant.  

[Calm]

I don’t think I have paid much attention to them since the honeycomb dance controversy ( https://www.latterdaycommentary.com/2015/04/14/the-colorado-remnant-family-reunion/ ) and the problem with one of the leaders backed by Snuffer having his priesthood practice limited by the women’s court that Snuffer then tried to invalidate, if I understood the events and claims correctly…and remember them correctly as well. (I think this thread https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=46312 is one that discusses what happened, if not, it should have enough clues to research it).
 

At first I was rather interested in the group as one of the women’s leaders happened to be a distant relative of mine and she and her husband had built our current home (her husband did a lot of the stuff himself and we are still trying to resolve those bugs though the original vision of the house was great… they just ran out of money and cut corners, modified the blueprints, and used leftover mismatched materials; the most beautiful windows in the house are in a walk in closet that has to have the blinds always closed for privacy and they have these gorgeous doors reclaimed from an old church stuck in the basement, for example).

The Trib had an article back in 2017 about them. 
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2017/08/27/denver-snuffers-offshoot-is-drawing-away-mormons-with-the-mantra-god-can-talk-to-you-too-but-will-these-freewheeling-fellowships-last/

Seems from the outside looking in, the Remnant is a very loosely joined group of people who all want to do their own thing. For some reason I think of them as the hippies of the greater Mormon community (meaning those who see their heritage going back to Joseph Smith in some fashion), antiestablishment and such. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Calm

[2BizE]

This was discussed on a recent  Mormon Land podcast, which are always very well done.  Snufferite: nobody knows because many people still remain on the LDS church records.

Davis: is growing and is mostly forming from right wing Mormon Qanon folks who are against the church for its Covid vaccine policy.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, rpn said:

They call  themselves The Remnant.  

There was an RLDS/CoC offshoot in the mid-1990s called the Conference of Restoration Elders/Remnant Church headed by David Bowerman.

[Robert F. Smith]

30 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

This was discussed on a recent  Mormon Land podcast, which are always very well done.  Snufferite: nobody knows because many people still remain on the LDS church records.

Davis: is growing and is mostly forming from right wing Mormon Qanon folks who are against the church for its Covid vaccine policy.

Does the LDS Church actually have a COVID-19 vaccine policy?  I thought it was pretty much do what you want.

[2BizE]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Does the LDS Church actually have a COVID-19 vaccine policy?  I thought it was pretty much do what you want.

Here is more info about these splinter groups:  

https://religiondispatches.org/a-new-mormon-religion-has-taken-qanon-conspiracies-and-canonized-them-as-doctrine/

[Canadiandude]

28 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Here is more info about these splinter groups:  

https://religiondispatches.org/a-new-mormon-religion-has-taken-qanon-conspiracies-and-canonized-them-as-doctrine/

😬
 

That’s worrying.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Canadiandude

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

Here is more info about these splinter groups:  

https://religiondispatches.org/a-new-mormon-religion-has-taken-qanon-conspiracies-and-canonized-them-as-doctrine/

 

1 hour ago, Canadiandude said:

😬
 

That’s worrying.

It should not be worrying.  There is no reason to attach any importance to such movements.  There has never been any real competition within the Restoration movement, and the LDS Church remains the big dog.

[smac97]

10 hours ago, 2BizE said:

This was discussed on a recent  Mormon Land podcast, which are always very well done.  Snufferite: nobody knows because many people still remain on the LDS church records.

I wonder how cohesive a movement it is, or can be.

10 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Davis: is growing and is mostly forming from right wing Mormon Qanon folks who are against the church for its Covid vaccine policy.

The viewership numbers on his YouTube channel are just a few hundred per video.  Of the 47 videos he has posted, only two have views above 1,000.  Many are barely into the triple digits.

What metrics do you look at when ascertaining whether his movement "is growing?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

14 hours ago, rongo said:

I didn't think Snuffer wanted to head a movement, but then he started his scripture projects, so he does seem to hokie-pokie towards that, tentatively. He hasn't broken out and overtly started a movement --- it was more his books and fireside tour, and recommendations that people be rebaptized.

That seems apt.  And he works for a living as an attorney, so that likely limits how much he can do as a religious leader, particularly of a new and fledgling movement.  And given his apparent ongoing reticence, I wonder this "movement" will ever really take off.  We'll see, I suppose.

14 hours ago, rongo said:

One question I have is how they see authority from within the movement. All ordinances I've seen are people who already had ordinations through the Church (they would regard the excommunications as having no effect on that). But, what about succeeding generations? Is authority seen as being an infinite regress of derivative authority from their former ties to the Church? Or, do they see themselves as being authorized to confer priesthood and perform ordinances?

Yes, the "laying on of hands" aspect of the Latter-day Saint paradigm is going to be difficult to circumvent.  Same goes with temple worship.  And custody and stewardship over tithes.  

14 hours ago, rongo said:

I think many of the families seem like they will see a big loss of continuity among their children and future grandchildren ---- with many of them finding their way back to the Church. They are embedded within LDS communities and extended family groups, and have a lot of work, school, and community contact with regular Mormons. They don't stand out in clothing, technology, etc., and readily talk about missions, the Church, etc. with friends and neighbors if it comes up, without seeking to evangelize. I think you're correct that it won't survive generationally. 

I have a friend whose in-laws went "all in" with the "Preparing a People" seminars.  I don't see much longevity for adherence to such things.  But who knows?  Folks in Joseph Smith's day thought the Church would fall apart after he was killed, so...

14 hours ago, rongo said:

"Snufferites," for lack of a better term, are very anti-polygamy. 

Yes, I was not intending to suggest otherwise.  I was using polygamy as an example of an alternative-to-the-Church "banner" around which some disaffected members gather.  Mr. Snuffer appears to have erected an alternative "banner" of his own, but it remains to be seen whether it will last.

14 hours ago, rongo said:

Many form quite sophisticated (but wrong) arguments laying it at Brigham Young's feet, not Joseph Smith's, but this is not universal. Many are also quite comfortable with Joseph Smith's polygamy, including polyandry and teenage wives.  They would very much beg to differ about their ability to "go deeper" untethered from the Church. Many are very well-read and sophisticated about past and current Church history and teachings, and they don't feel any discomfort or inhibitions about delving deeper, looking at sources, etc.

I agree.  I was intending to suggest that it is difficult to go "deeper" and remain a cohesive movement/organization.  Schismatic sects arose after the Manifesto and have had some longevity, but that has arisen mostly through fecundity (as opposed to proselytes joining them), and they sure seem to be struggling quite a bit for the last many years.

Consider this list of sects within the "Latter-day Saint Movement".  Of the "Churches that separated from Smith's organization prior to 1844," all are listed as "defunct."  The "LDS-derived churches upholding polygamy after the Manifesto of 1890" most or all are based on polygamy.  Again, many of these are struggling, and none seem to be "thriving" in terms of growth, influence, etc. 

Is there a schismatic sect formed in the last century that is currently doing well?  

14 hours ago, rongo said:

One appeal for the general movement is that it is very anti-Correlation, and it is attractive for those who see the heavy influence of PR on the Brethren, framing of things, and attempts to control narratives as problematic.

I can appreciate concerns about correlation, but I also appreciate the burden carried by the Brethren.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Thinking]

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

Do they consider "Sufferite" ...

Freudian slip?

[2BizE]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wonder how cohesive a movement it is, or can be.

The viewership numbers on his YouTube channel are just a few hundred per video.  Of the 47 videos he has posted, only two have views above 1,000.  Many are barely into the triple digits.

What metrics do you look at when ascertaining whether his movement "is growing?"

Thanks,

-Smac

I really know nothing about this Davis group. I first heard of them two days ago.  Is it growing? Yes. It started with 1 person and now appears to be 2 or possibly more…

[rpn]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

I didn't think Snuffer wanted to head a movement, but then he started his scripture projects,

Snuffer DIDN't start the scriptures projects.   Two separate groups started various things and brought them to Snuffer who published them once each group got their own stuff and got agreement from the other group as to what it was (I think I recall hearing Snuffer made some changes in their final draft.

[Navidad]

How many derivative organized or loose-knit "Mormon" groups do you all believe exist in the world today? I can't give you sources, but it seems I have read about there being from 41 to 200 such groups who in one way or another claim to follow the Book of Mormon and the teachings of Joseph Smith.

It seems like in our area a number of folks went back and forth between 4 or 5 of the groups, especially from the 1930s to the early 2000s. Both "Mormons" (from different groups) and Mennonites (from different groups as well) in Mexico are considered in a liminal position, especially as relating to the broader Mexican culture and being considered true "Mexicans." Mennonites don't proselytize, but I am convinced that this liminal - neither here nor there/neither fish nor fowl/betwixt and between position hurts LDS missionary efforts in Mexico. The Pentecostals in Mexico have, to a large degree avoided these issues. They have integrated well into the "Mexican" culture. Their growth in Mexico is quite impressive.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

How many derivative organized or loose-knit "Mormon" groups do you all believe exist in the world today? I can't give you sources, but it seems I have read about there being from 41 to 200 such groups who in one way or another claim to follow the Book of Mormon and the teachings of Joseph Smith.

It seems like in our area a number of folks went back and forth between 4 or 5 of the groups, especially from the 1930s to the early 2000s. Both "Mormons" (from different groups) and Mennonites (from different groups as well) in Mexico are considered in a liminal position, especially as relating to the broader Mexican culture and being considered true "Mexicans." Mennonites don't proselytize, but I am convinced that this liminal - neither here nor there/neither fish nor fowl/betwixt and between position hurts LDS missionary efforts in Mexico. The Pentecostals in Mexico have, to a large degree avoided these issues. They have integrated well into the "Mexican" culture. Their growth in Mexico is quite impressive.

Hi Navidad! There are many small groups. I wouldn't even hazzard a guess. Most of the polygamous groups are separate from each other. There is one small group maybe 15 miles from me. Their kids seem reasonally well adjusted, but I don't think they really associate themselves with any other groups. Such groups are known essentially by the names of their leader families - like the King polygamists. There are probably at least a dozen of such small polygamist groups in Utah and Arizona. Then there are non-polygamous offshoots as well. 

As a kid I kind of liked the "separateness" of the LDS culture. It was a refreshing refuge from the world. It was a place that felt godly to me. I just didn't find that in the world, so I thought it was good that the Church had a "separate" feel, if that is what you are talking about. There are plenty of non-US members of the Church, but tbh I really don't know how much they feel integrated into their local cultures. I'm sure it is more of an issue for them than here in the states. Esp since US culture has deteriorated to a point of almost no values. To others we are "nice" but maybe a little weird. Sometimes we are even embraced by various factions of society. The extreme prejudice against polygamy has seemed to have faded, and even forgotten. I'm sure such is not the case in Mexico.