Happiness and grief

[Meadowchik]

Do you feel like grief is okay?

It's been a few weeks since we found out about the declining health of a close family member. Stage four cancer. The moment I knew, I could feel it wash over my body: grief. 

Recently an old childhood friend spoke about the loss of her father, and how, after the funeral, she still felt so much pain. She expressed a sense of shame about it. Thankfully she was met with support and understanding.

I think that sometimes, many of us in various traditions, emphasize the importance of transcendent joy so much in times of tragedy that we skip over critical stages of the grief process.

A phrase going around is "it is okay to not be okay," and I think this sentiment has an important place in grieving. It is okay to grieve, to even feel shattered by loss. And when others are closer to the tragedy than we are, we may mourn with them, and in so doing provide much needed comfort.

What are your thoughts?

[ksfisher]

16 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I think that sometimes, many of us in various traditions, emphasize the importance of transcendent joy so much in times of tragedy that we skip over critical stages of the grief process.

Do you think it's possible to feel both at the same time?  Or even alternate between the two? 

I think it's ok to be happy that someone has moved on to a better place (especially if they were dealing with serious health issues) while still being sad that we're separated from them (even if for a short time).

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you feel like grief is okay?

It's been a few weeks since we found out about the declining health of a close family member. Stage four cancer. The moment I knew, I could feel it wash over my body: grief. 

Recently an old childhood friend spoke about the loss of her father, and how, after the funeral, she still felt so much pain. She expressed a sense of shame about it. Thankfully she was met with support and understanding.

I think that sometimes, many of us in various traditions, emphasize the importance of transcendent joy so much in times of tragedy that we skip over critical stages of the grief process.

A phrase going around is "it is okay to not be okay," and I think this sentiment has an important place in grieving. It is okay to grieve, to even feel shattered by loss. And when others are closer to the tragedy than we are, we may mourn with them, and in so doing provide much needed comfort.

What are your thoughts?

Grief is a symptom of charity.  It is genuine.  It is human.  It is even Godly according to scripture.  We do certainly emphasize joy as a primary purpose of life, but I don't think it is possible to comprehend or experience the fullness of joy without experiencing the opposition of feelings like grief.    The grief of death and loss, for example, makes the joy of the resurrection that much more full. 

The phrase "good grief" comes to mind.   Yes, actually...it is good 

If we go through this life without experiencing any grief, than we did something terribly wrong and must be in a state of emotional numbness, incapable of social intimacy and charity.  

Like most good things however, grief can become toxic in unhealthy people without appropriate coping mechanisms.  That is why grieving with others is important.  It is healing.     

We should embrace grief and let it take its course and flow through us.  It is when we try to block that energy that we mess things up.   

[Meadowchik]

9 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Do you think it's possible to feel both at the same time?  Or even alternate between the two? 

I think it's ok to be happy that someone has moved on to a better place (especially if they were dealing with serious health issues) while still being sad that we're separated from them (even if for a short time).

Yes. I can relate to feeling happy that their suffering is over while also feeling loss. Also to wanting to let the happy memories carry me through.

[Meadowchik]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Grief is a symptom of charity.  It is genuine.  It is human.  It is even Godly according to scripture.  We do certainly emphasize joy as a primary purpose of life, but I don't think it is possible to comprehend or experience the fullness of joy without experiencing the opposition of feelings like grief.    The grief of death and loss, for example, makes the joy of the resurrection that much more full. 

The phrase "good grief" comes to mind.   Yes, actually...it is good 

If we go through this life without experiencing any grief, than we did something terribly wrong and must be in a state of emotional numbness, incapable of social intimacy and charity.  

Like most good things however, grief can become toxic in unhealthy people without appropriate coping mechanisms.  That is why grieving with others is important.  It is healing.     

We should embrace grief and let it take its course and flow through us.  It is when we try to block that energy that we mess things up.   

Yes!

[Rain]

Grief is not only ok it allows us to really know how joy feels. It's also ok to be ok.

I think the real problem is determining what grief should look like for other people.  For example you may go through little bits of grief while your family member is sick so that grief may not be a big thing once your family member is gone.  Or you may may be just trying to hold yourself together throughout sickness so that when  they are gone you feel shattered.  To the opposite person it may seem like you didn't grieve or that you grieved too much, but in reality we just went through the process differently. 

When my brother died last year I told very few people.  My sister told tons.  I didn't travel to the funeral.  My other 2 brothers did.  But as the only sibling older than him, the one closest to him in age and the fact that I had very different experiences with him than my siblings did it makes sense.  My sister probably thinks I didn't grieve for him.  Probably thinks that the joy thing applies to me.  But it's not true - my grief was just much more private and composed of different pieces.  

Timing of grief is different too.  My husband didn't cry when his mom died.  He is not one who is a afraid to cry. He just didn't need to cry then.  Three and a half years later I found he was suddenly crying as we brought my youngest home from the hospital after he had been in the NICU for 5.5 weeks.  He was grieving for his mom.  But we have expected his dad would be gone for about 5 years now.  I was thinking that my husband would be grieving through this.  When his dad died at the beginning of this year the grief really hit him - every time he was giving a blessing to a man in our ward that wanted a blessing every day or 2.  

So yes, its ok to grieve.  Even Christ mourned with those he loved.  We just can't assume that others are not grieving or not grieving in the right way.        

Edited June 28, 2021 by Rain

[Meadowchik]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

Grief is not only ok it allows us to really know how joy feels. It's also ok to be ok.

I think the real problem is determining what grief should look like for other people.  For example you may go through little bits of grief while your family member is sick so that grief may not be a big thing once your family member is gone.  Or you may may be just trying to hold yourself together throughout sickness so that when  they are gone you feel shattered.  To the opposite person it may seem like you didn't grieve or that you grieved too much, but in reality we just went through the process differently. 

When my brother died last year I told very few people.  My sister told tons.  I didn't travel to the funeral.  My other 2 brothers did.  But as the only sibling older than him, the one closest to him in age and the fact that I had very different experiences with him than my siblings did it makes sense.  My sister probably thinks I didn't grieve for him.  Probably thinks that the joy thing applies to me.  But it's not true - my grief was just much more private and composed a different pieces.  

Timing of grief is different too.  My husband didn't cry when his mom died.  He is not one who is a afraid to cry. He just didn't need to cry then.  Three and a half years later I found he was suddenly crying as we brought my youngest home from the hospital after he had been in the NICU for 5.5 weeks.  He was grieving for his mom.  But we have expected his dad would be gone for about 5 years now.  I was thinking that my husband would be grieving through this.  When his dad died at the beginning of this year the grief really hit him - every time he was giving a blessing to a man in our ward that wanted a blessing every day or 2.  

So yes, its ok to grieve.  Even Christ mourned with those he loved.  We just can't assume that others are not grieving or not grieving in the right way.        

Very true, everyone is different. My first response is like my mom's: calm and very contained. It's like I'm made to handle the crisis first. Then at the weirdest moments the grief hits. Like at this current time, when I was blocking off my work schedule to go be with them.

 

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Very true, everyone is different. My first response is like my mom's: calm and very contained. It's like I'm made to handle the crisis first. Then at the weirdest moments the grief hits. Like at this current time, when I was blocking off my work schedule to go be with them.

 

I'm really sorry.  I hope you get the time you need with them.  

[Meadowchik]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'm really sorry.  I hope you get the time you need with them.  

Thank you. I'm so sorry for your loss as well. And also for the ways that the pandemic may have complicated it. 

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you feel like grief is okay?

Certainly. Do we not learn from Ecclesiastes (or maybe it was Footloose) that "there is a time for every purpose under heaven. A time to laugh... and a time to weep. A time to mourn... and there is a time to dance."

 

Quote

It's been a few weeks since we found out about the declining health of a close family member. Stage four cancer. The moment I knew, I could feel it wash over my body: grief. 

I'm sorry to hear about that. We will keep you in our prayers.

 

Quote

Recently an old childhood friend spoke about the loss of her father, and how, after the funeral, she still felt so much pain. She expressed a sense of shame about it. Thankfully she was met with support and understanding.

There's nothing shameful (or even unusual) about continuing to grieve for a close loved one after they are gone.

While we normally expect the most severe, acute pain to subside relatively quickly, it isn't uncommon to continue to have intermittent periods of grief for months or even years following the passing of a loved one.

 

Quote

I think that sometimes, many of us in various traditions, emphasize the importance of transcendent joy so much in times of tragedy that we skip over critical stages of the grief process.

I don't know that it's an emphasis on transcendent joy so much as a lack of empathy.

Some people have simply not experienced significant loss in their own lives. As such, their efforts when dealing with people who are suffering a loss are sometimes well-intended but...not especially helpful.

Also, for whatever reason, there are a number of people who - and I'm not quite sure if this is the right phrase - just happen to be incredibly emotionally resilient. They aren't cold or unfeeling by any means, but they are capable of processing grief comparatively easily. And, as with many things in life, those who have things come easy to them tend to just assume that it ought to be easy for everyone else as well. This may cause them to emphasize things that aren't really what the individual needs at the moment as well.

 

Quote

A phrase going around is "it is okay to not be okay," and I think this sentiment has an important place in grieving. It is okay to grieve, to even feel shattered by loss. And when others are closer to the tragedy than we are, we may mourn with them, and in so doing provide much needed comfort.

What are your thoughts?

I don't know that I would say it's a good thing to be "shattered" by loss. But I recognize that some people are going to experience grief that way, at least for a time anyway.

And I do think that is okay.

It's only when the grief becomes persistently debilitating (over a long period of time) that I would shift out of the mourning with those who mourn phase and into the helping them seek out professional help phase.

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Amulek

[JAHS]

Jesus wept (John 11:35)

If it's OK for Him it certainly is OK for us.

[rchorse]

The only way to take sorrow out of death is to take love out of life.
-Russell M. Nelson

[Meadowchik]

22 minutes ago, rchorse said:

The only way to take sorrow out of death is to take love out of life.
-Russell M. Nelson

Spot on.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you feel like grief is okay?

Grief?  Sure.  It can be a necessary component of the human experience.

A working definition:

Quote

grief

[ greef ]

See synonyms for grief on Thesaurus.com

---

noun

1. keen mental suffering or distress over affliction or loss; sharp sorrow; painful regret.
2. a cause or occasion of keen distress or sorrow.

 

And here:

Quote

Grief is the response to loss, particularly to the loss of someone or some living thing that has died, to which a bond or affection was formed. Although conventionally focused on the emotional response to loss, grief also has physical, cognitive, behavioral, social, cultural, spiritual and philosophical dimensions. While the terms are often used interchangeably, bereavement refers to the state of loss, while grief is the reaction to that loss.

The grief associated with death is familiar to most people, but individuals grieve in connection with a variety of losses throughout their lives, such as unemployment, ill health or the end of a relationship.

But what about despair?  No.  I seek to avoid it at all costs.  In the immortal words of Marilla Cuthbert:

Quote

Anne Shirley: Can't you even imagine you're in the depths of despair?

Marilla Cuthbert: No I cannot. To despair is to turn your back on God.

And Moroni:

Quote

20 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity.
21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.
22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

A working definition:

Quote

despair

[ dih-spair ]

See synonyms for: despair / despairing on Thesaurus.com

---

noun

1. loss of hope; hopelessness.

2. someone or something that causes hopelessness:He is the despair of his mother.

verb (used without object)

3. to lose, give up, or be without hope (often followed by of):to despair of humanity.

verb (used with object)

4. Obsolete. to give up hope of.

...

SYNONYM STUDY FOR DESPAIR

1. Despair, desperation, despondency, discouragement, hopelessness refer to a state of mind caused by circumstances that seem too much to cope with. Despair suggests total loss of hope, which may be passive or may drive one to furious efforts, even if at random: in the depths of despair; courage born of despair. Desperation is usually an active state, the abandonment of hope impelling to a furious struggle against adverse circumstances, with utter disregard of consequences: an act of desperation when everything else had failed. Despondency is a state of deep gloom and disheartenment: a spell of despondency. Discouragement is a loss of courage, hope, and ambition because of obstacles, frustrations, etc.: His optimism yielded to discouragement. Hopelessness is a loss of hope so complete as to result in a more or less permanent state of passive despair: a state of hopelessness and apathy.

I think we see an in extremis demonstration of despair in Mormon 2:

Quote

1 And it came to pass in that same year there began to be a war again between the Nephites and the Lamanites. And notwithstanding I being young, was large in stature; therefore the people of Nephi appointed me that I should be their leader, or the leader of their armies.
2 Therefore it came to pass that in my sixteenth year I did go forth at the head of an army of the Nephites, against the Lamanites; therefore three hundred and twenty and six years had passed away.
3 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and twenty and seventh year the Lamanites did come upon us with exceedingly great power, insomuch that they did frighten my armies; therefore they would not fight, and they began to retreat towards the north countries.
4 And it came to pass that we did come to the city of Angola, and we did take possession of the city, and make preparations to defend ourselves against the Lamanites. And it came to pass that we did fortify the city with our might; but notwithstanding all our fortifications the Lamanites did come upon us and did drive us out of the city.
5 And they did also drive us forth out of the land of David.
6 And we marched forth and came to the land of Joshua, which was in the borders west by the seashore.
7 And it came to pass that we did gather in our people as fast as it were possible, that we might get them together in one body.
8 But behold, the land was filled with robbers and with Lamanites; and notwithstanding the great destruction which hung over my people, they did not repent of their evil doings; therefore there was blood and carnage spread throughout all the face of the land, both on the part of the Nephites and also on the part of the Lamanites; and it was one complete revolution throughout all the face of the land.
9 And now, the Lamanites had a king, and his name was Aaron; and he came against us with an army of forty and four thousand. And behold, I withstood him with forty and two thousand. And it came to pass that I beat him with my army that he fled before me. And behold, all this was done, and three hundred and thirty years had passed away.
10 And it came to pass that the Nephites began to repent of their iniquity, and began to cry even as had been prophesied by Samuel the prophet; for behold no man could keep that which was his own, for the thieves, and the robbers, and the murderers, and the magic art, and the witchcraft which was in the land.
11 Thus there began to be a mourning and a lamentation in all the land because of these things, and more especially among the people of Nephi.
12 And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their mourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would again become a righteous people.
13 But behold this my joy was vain, for their sorrowing was not unto repentance, because of the goodness of God; but it was rather the sorrowing of the damned, because the Lord would not always suffer them to take happiness in sin.
14 And they did not come unto Jesus with broken hearts and contrite spirits, but they did curse God, and wish to die. Nevertheless they would struggle with the sword for their lives.
15 And it came to pass that my sorrow did return unto me again, and I saw that the day of grace was passed with them, both temporally and spiritually; for I saw thousands of them hewn down in open rebellion against their God, and heaped up as dung upon the face of the land.

Fortunately, most of us are not situated in life-or-death violent struggles.  I would hope that those prone to despair, to "curse God, and wish to die," turn from such nihilism and seek out hope. 

Grief and sorrow are transitory things.  As the Savior put it: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."  Also, from Ether 12:4 (one of my all-time favorites) :

Quote

Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Yep.

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

It's been a few weeks since we found out about the declining health of a close family member. Stage four cancer. The moment I knew, I could feel it wash over my body: grief. 

Recently an old childhood friend spoke about the loss of her father, and how, after the funeral, she still felt so much pain. She expressed a sense of shame about it. Thankfully she was met with support and understanding.

I think that sometimes, many of us in various traditions, emphasize the importance of transcendent joy so much in times of tragedy that we skip over critical stages of the grief process.

A phrase going around is "it is okay to not be okay," and I think this sentiment has an important place in grieving. It is okay to grieve, to even feel shattered by loss. And when others are closer to the tragedy than we are, we may mourn with them, and in so doing provide much needed comfort.

What are your thoughts?

Good thoughts, these.  We need to give ourselves time and space to grieve.  

Last year I lost a dear friend to pancreatic cancer.  The grief was there.  It was real.  I couldn't circumvent it.  I had to go through it. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Fether]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you feel like grief is okay?

It's been a few weeks since we found out about the declining health of a close family member. Stage four cancer. The moment I knew, I could feel it wash over my body: grief. 

Recently an old childhood friend spoke about the loss of her father, and how, after the funeral, she still felt so much pain. She expressed a sense of shame about it. Thankfully she was met with support and understanding.

I think that sometimes, many of us in various traditions, emphasize the importance of transcendent joy so much in times of tragedy that we skip over critical stages of the grief process.

A phrase going around is "it is okay to not be okay," and I think this sentiment has an important place in grieving. It is okay to grieve, to even feel shattered by loss. And when others are closer to the tragedy than we are, we may mourn with them, and in so doing provide much needed comfort.

What are your thoughts?

I had a very similar convrsation with a few friends not too long ago. I am probably the least qualified person to talk about this since I have had a fairly peacefull life, but here are some insights I pulled from that conversation.

There are a couple negative emotions we can feel at the loss of someone.

- Fear that life will be hard without them
- Grief at the loss of their relationship
- Despair because they are forever gone (when one doesn't believe in an afterlife)
- Sorrow because of the pain that their loss will cause to others (like for the children of the deceased or the spouse)
- Anger becase you may be blaming someone

Christ was sad at the passing of Lazarus even though he knew he could bring him back to life. I would assume he sorrowed for those around him who missed him so much or perhaps the pain Lazarus must have gone through on his way to death. I would say the fear, despair, and anger can all be midigated through prayer, study, and having developed Christ-like attributes. But I think the Grief and Sorrow is natural for a Christ-like person.

[Rain]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Grief?  Sure.  It can be a necessary component of the human experience.

A working definition:

And here:

But what about despair?  No.  I seek to avoid it at all costs.  In the immortal words of Marilla Cuthbert:

And Moroni:

A working definition:

I think we see an in extremis demonstration of despair in Mormon 2:

Fortunately, most of us are not situated in life-or-death violent struggles.  I would hope that those prone to despair, to "curse God, and wish to die," turn from such nihilism and seek out hope. 

Grief and sorrow are transitory things.  As the Savior put it: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."  Also, from Ether 12:4 (one of my all-time favorites) :

Yep.

Good thoughts, these.  We need to give ourselves time and space to grieve.  

Last year I lost a dear friend to pancreatic cancer.  The grief was there.  It was real.  I couldn't circumvent it.  I had to go through it. 

Thanks,

-Smac

"And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity."

Or post-partum depression (personal experience). Or the abuse and sins of others. Or other physical factors that cause depression. Etc.  Or emotional or mental factors that push someone that far.

Of course one should get help, but those in despair may not recognize they need help till it is too late.

But if one is despair over a loss it really isn't grief anymore which is probably what you were saying.  I just don't feel like most who are in despair are there because they have sinned which would be another topic.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Rain

[Stargazer]

20 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you feel like grief is okay?

It's been a few weeks since we found out about the declining health of a close family member. Stage four cancer. The moment I knew, I could feel it wash over my body: grief. 

Recently an old childhood friend spoke about the loss of her father, and how, after the funeral, she still felt so much pain. She expressed a sense of shame about it. Thankfully she was met with support and understanding.

I think that sometimes, many of us in various traditions, emphasize the importance of transcendent joy so much in times of tragedy that we skip over critical stages of the grief process.

A phrase going around is "it is okay to not be okay," and I think this sentiment has an important place in grieving. It is okay to grieve, to even feel shattered by loss. And when others are closer to the tragedy than we are, we may mourn with them, and in so doing provide much needed comfort.

What are your thoughts?

Oh, absolutely it's okay. In my own personal experience it seems that expressing it actually helps alleviate it a bit. 

Thinking about the question has me contemplating my own grief-process from the time I lost my wife back in 2015. At first I was numb, having gotten little sleep in the previous 24 hours, and I wasn't feeling much of anything beyond exhaustion. When our Relief Society president dropped in for a visit, she seemed surprised, and asked me "Do you feel it? The peace?" As I said, I hadn't felt anything, except for loss, but when I sent out my "feelers", as it were, there it was!  The was peace in the house, after all that, and though I cried myself to sleep that night, there remained a feeling of peace. And like the character in the movie "Ghost" said, the love was still there. It goes on.

And if one can believe in a glorious reunion in an afterlife, one can even have the anticipation of that.

But it is very much the case that accepting one's grief is very important, both to oneself, and to those around you -- who are grieving as well. Such shared grief can bring people together in ways that are a definite blessing. And can help in healing from the hurt.

[LoudmouthMormon]

20 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you feel like grief is okay?

I'm not aware of any serious voice claiming otherwise.  Is anyone else?

Another way of putting it - if someone is denying their grief and trying to ignore or repress it, they're not doing themselves any favors.

[Tacenda]

20 hours ago, Rain said:

Grief is not only ok it allows us to really know how joy feels. It's also ok to be ok.

I think the real problem is determining what grief should look like for other people.  For example you may go through little bits of grief while your family member is sick so that grief may not be a big thing once your family member is gone.  Or you may may be just trying to hold yourself together throughout sickness so that when  they are gone you feel shattered.  To the opposite person it may seem like you didn't grieve or that you grieved too much, but in reality we just went through the process differently. 

When my brother died last year I told very few people.  My sister told tons.  I didn't travel to the funeral.  My other 2 brothers did.  But as the only sibling older than him, the one closest to him in age and the fact that I had very different experiences with him than my siblings did it makes sense.  My sister probably thinks I didn't grieve for him.  Probably thinks that the joy thing applies to me.  But it's not true - my grief was just much more private and composed of different pieces.  

Timing of grief is different too.  My husband didn't cry when his mom died.  He is not one who is a afraid to cry. He just didn't need to cry then.  Three and a half years later I found he was suddenly crying as we brought my youngest home from the hospital after he had been in the NICU for 5.5 weeks.  He was grieving for his mom.  But we have expected his dad would be gone for about 5 years now.  I was thinking that my husband would be grieving through this.  When his dad died at the beginning of this year the grief really hit him - every time he was giving a blessing to a man in our ward that wanted a blessing every day or 2.  

So yes, its ok to grieve.  Even Christ mourned with those he loved.  We just can't assume that others are not grieving or not grieving in the right way.        

I'll cry at the oddest moments, and if it's at a funeral or a place I should be expected to cry, sometimes I don't. I feel emotion spontaneously. I was somewhat like your husband when my mom passed away. I thought I must be a horrible daughter but I think of her in privacy all the time and emotions come out and I cry then. I get upset how her life was cut very short when she started to develop Alzheimer's at the age of only 62 or so. 

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'll cry at the oddest moments, and if it's at a funeral or a place I should be expected to cry, sometimes I don't. I feel emotion spontaneously. I was somewhat like your husband when my mom passed away. I thought I must be a horrible daughter but I think of her in privacy all the time and emotions come out and I cry then. I get upset how her life was cut very short when she started to develop Alzheimer's at the age of only 62 or so. 

You are very much not a horrible daughter.  I have felt your grief through many posts you have made here.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Rain said:

You are very much not a horrible daughter.  I have felt your grief through many posts you have made here.

Thanks Rain!

[Meadowchik]

53 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'm not aware of any serious voice claiming otherwise.  Is anyone else?

Another way of putting it - if someone is denying their grief and trying to ignore or repress it, they're not doing themselves any favors.

I have attended services where the insistence on feeling happiness and gratitude now seemed to short-circuit the grieving. And of course, seen such behaviour anecdotally and heard of such experiences from others.

But it is good to hear fuller perspectives here, comforting even.

[smac97]

17 hours ago, Rain said:

"And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity."

Or post-partum depression (personal experience).

Yes.  Despair brought on by chemical imbalances, mental health issues, etc. is not "because of iniquity."

17 hours ago, Rain said:

But if one is despair over a loss it really isn't grief anymore which is probably what you were saying. 

The despair I had in mind arises usually "because of iniquity" as noted above.  Such things can come in all shapes and sizes. 

17 hours ago, Rain said:

I just don't feel like most who are in despair are there because they have sinned which would be another topic.

I suppose despair can also arise by way of philosophical outlook.  By way of illustration:

Some years ago I was involved in two separate funerals for two women who had passed within weeks of each other.  Both women were matriarchs of large families.  Both women were elderly, but their deaths were nevertheless not really expected.  One died abruptly after a heart attack, and the other died in her sleep.  There were no warning signals of pending demise in either circumstance, and hence no time for family members to prepare themselves for their respective losses.

The two families had, broadly speaking, very different perspectives on the meaning and significance of death.  The funeral and preceding preparations for one of these women were, in the main, a very "despairing" affair.  Many family members were seemingly inconsolable.  They spoke little, and when they did it was with bleak, melancholy words.  Over the next few days things improved a little.  The funeral had a few moments of fond remembrances, but overall the feeling was . . . gloomy.  Dejected.  

The preparations and funeral for the other matriarch were quite different.  The family members were feeling sadness and grief, to be sure.  But there was also much optimism and joy.  The funeral was a solemn, but also very uplifting and heartening, event.  

At the time, and several times since, I have pondered on the significant difference in the foregoing reactions to the passing of a loved one.  My sense is that one family was philosphically/emotionally prepared, whereas the other family was mostly not prepared.  In both instances there was much love and affection for the departed matriarch, but the meaning of that departure was radically different based on the outlook of the family members.  I think the former family felt not only grief, but despair and dejection.  In contrast, the latter family felt grief, but also happiness and hope.  The difference, I think, was that death was, for some, either an existential termination or else a great unknown.  For others, however, death is a transition from one phase of existence to another.  I think Tolkien put it beautifully:

Quote

PIPPIN: I didn't think it would end this way.

GANDALF: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it.

PIPPIN: What? Gandalf? See what?

GANDALF: White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.

PIPPIN: Well, that isn't so bad.

GANDALF: No. No, it isn't.

Wonderful.  In scriptural parlance:

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"  (1 Cor. 15:54-55)

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."  (John 16:33)

"Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."  (2 Nephi 31:20).

Compare this marvelously uplifting narrative to the literal nihilism in Game of Thrones:

Quote

Last week's Game of Thrones finally brought back Jon Snow, and actor Kit Harington has told Entertainment Weekly a bit about what we can expect from the character now that he's seen the other side. What follows is a rather bleak look at death in the world of Game of Thrones.

"There's a brilliant line when Melisandre asks: 'What did you see?' And [Snow] says: 'Nothing, there was nothing at all,'" Harington said.

"That cuts right to our deepest fear, that there's nothing after death," the Game of Thrones star continued. "And that's the most important line in the whole season for me. Jon's never been afraid of death, and that's made him a strong and honorable person. He realizes something about his life now: He has to live it, because that's all there is. He's been over the line and there's nothing there."

You can read the rest of the quote at Entertainment Weekly, and it's worth doing; Harington goes into detail about how this will change the character in the story moving forward.

Telling the audience there is no afterlife — that this life is all there is — marks a bold move for Game of Thrones, and would go a long way toward giving Snow more motivation to become more aggressive in his war to keep the world safe from the White Walkers. It's not like there's a happy ending for anyone in this world, just blackness and the void of nothingness.

"It's not like there's a happy ending for anyone in this world, just blackness and the void of nothingness."

Yeesh.  Kinda difficult to avoid despair with that mindset.

But then, there are times when grief can become so entrenched that it becomes a form of despair.  I have a dear friend who lost a baby daughter to SIDS.  It has been about eight years, and I think she is still grieving, perhaps despairing.  She needs, and is getting, some professional therapy.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 29, 2021 by smac97

[JAHS]

30 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I have attended services where the insistence on feeling happiness and gratitude now seemed to short-circuit the grieving. And of course, seen such behaviour anecdotally and heard of such experiences from others.

But it is good to hear fuller perspectives here, comforting even.

Most people would rather do the more serious grieving in private. By the time the funeral happens the initial shock is mostly over and then one can focus on the love and hope that they will be together again.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Most people would rather do the more serious grieving in private.

In the American culture, perhaps…if by serious grieving you mean observable physical emotional behaviour.  I think talking about the person publicly at a funeral or with friends and family can be part of serious grieving as well. Crying noiselessly but perfectly able to respond if anyone talks to you seems to be the ideal emotions response if out in public if media is to believed. 
 

I have to admit I find death rather sanitized in our American culture. Even with the process of dressing the dead in the subculture of our church, it feels like people are trying to protect the grievers from reality in my experience. I don’t usually look at the dead at viewings as I am a visual person and I don’t want that to become my dominant image, but in the case of my mom, I wanted to dress Mom as a way to say goodbye because she had received no physical contact from family for at least 7 months before she died due to Covid only allowing conversations through windows.  But what it amounted to was simply placing the temple robes on her as the funeral home went ahead and did all her actual clothing.  I was disappointed, but understood they were assuming I wanted a beautiful moment rather than a struggle when to me it was about sacrificing for her one last time and the struggle would have helped cement that sense.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Calm