Church buying up more farms

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

Here's the full quote

"Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it ripht away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God."

When he says "we expect to see the day" it sounds to me as if he's offering his opinion.

President Smith also says "except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord"  Every donation I've ever made has been voluntary. 

I suspect in this context he would mean ending tithing entirely and all donations being freewill offerings or the equivalent of what a Fast Offering is. By that I mean any part of the Fast Offering that goes beyond the cost of the meals skipped.

[Fether]

21 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I would compare it to the possibly lost opportunities. Could that 1000, or even 100k after growth could have been used to ease suffering and advance human opportunities, for example? Is something neglected when the choice to continue investing is made?

I’ve been gone the last day so maybe this was brought up.

What if the church had that mindset 100 years ago? Give the entirety of their $100mil portfolio (or whatever it would have been) instead of invest it. The church would not be able to donate so much money today. $100bil donated today is nothing donated tomorrow. $100mil donated today is $1bil tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day, and the next day, etc

Edited June 24, 2021 by Fether

[Meadowchik]

14 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Here's the full quote

"Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it ripht away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God."

When he says "we expect to see the day" it sounds to me as if he's offering his opinion.

President Smith also says "except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord"  Every donation I've ever made has been voluntary. 

Like being required to enter the temple to make certain covenants is voluntary?

[Meadowchik]

9 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’ve been gone the last day so maybe this was brought up.

What if the church had that mindset 100 years ago? Give the entirety of their $100mil portfolio (or whatever it would have been) instead of invest it. The church would not be able to donate so much money today. $100bil donated today is nothing donated tomorrow. $100mil donated today is $1bil tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day, and the next day, etc

At the moment the surplus has been about 2 billion a year, approximately. At what point are the savings enough?

[Tacenda]

37 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The Church? Maybe. The Saints? No way. 

This must be the fifth time you've brought up what you saw in a meme once. Each time, I've gone back to the sermon and other sermons from the same Church president to provide the full context and demonstrate that the meme is dishonest. I'm not willing to do that anymore. You can believe falsehoods if you prefer them.

Wow, glad you're keeping track.  I shouldn't regurgitate it so much. It's abusive to me.  

If interested, I'm not the only one that brings it up. Sorry to throw Cinepro under the bus, apologies. But here is a previous thread about it and hopefully not going to throw the subject of the thread off. 

 

[ksfisher]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect in this context he would mean ending tithing entirely and all donations being freewill offerings or the equivalent of what a Fast Offering is. By that I mean any part of the Fast Offering that goes beyond the cost of the meals skipped.

He already acknowledges that tithing is a freewill offering.  From the same document:

"The tithing: system of the Church, so often denounced as oppressive, and as imposing an arbitrary ecclesiastical tax, is in reality a system of free-will offerings."

"Tithing is a voluntary offering for religious and charitable purposes, and not a scheme of extortion for the enrichment of the higher officials."

 

I believe that correct context for the previous quote is a church that was heavily in debt and asking for church members to pay tithing, in part, to get rid of that debt. 

"We do not have to borrow any more, and we wont have to if the Latter-day Saints continue to live their religion and observe this law of tithing, It is the law of revenue to the Church."

 

Sounds like he's reporting that the debts are paid off and the church had no more need of tithing money for paying off debt.

Edited June 24, 2021 by ksfisher

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Like being required to enter the temple to make certain covenants is voluntary?

All covenants we enter into with the Lord are voluntary. 

1 Know then that ev'ry soul is free,
To choose his life and what he'll be;
For this eternal truth is given,
That God will force no man to heaven

The time, place, and worthiness standards, however, are set by Him.

Edited June 24, 2021 by ksfisher

[Meadowchik]

17 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

All covenants we enter into with the Lord are voluntary. 

1 Know then that ev'ry soul is free,
To choose his life and what he'll be;
For this eternal truth is given,
That God will force no man to heaven

The time, place, and worthiness standards, however, are set by Him.

As of now payment of tithing is attached to very important privileges. It's inaccurate to characterise it as voluntary.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Meadowchik

[ksfisher]

24 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

As of now payment of tithing is attached to very important privileges. It's inaccurate to characterise it as voluntary.

Do you that it is unfair that the Lord would require those who desire to enter the temple and make covenants with Him to meet certain standards or prerequisites?

Edited June 24, 2021 by ksfisher

[Fether]

56 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

At the moment the surplus has been about 2 billion a year, approximately. At what point are the savings enough?

Depends, what should we be saving for? A hurricane? An earth Quake? A famine? A war? The last days?

How many people are we saving saving for? 1? 15? 70? 144,000? 18,000,000? 7,000,000,000?

this is God’s church, his kingdom on earth. We are all his children and we believe there will be a last days and things will become extremely difficult for the entire world. I would assume God’s kingdom would have enough savings once it is in a position to be a support for the entire world when it comes crumbling down

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Fether

[latterdaytemplar]

23 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think people forget that a lot of members give to the church in ways that isn't tithing.  People leave the church money and property all the time when they die, for example.

I was not aware of this. Thank you for sharing it. 🙂

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Well you don't speak for everyone on this thread, going by some of the defending responses.

You appear to be the first to bring up hoarding in this thread, so how is anyone else, let alone defenders to have stated or implied that they don’t see hoarding vast wealth as immoral?  There may be things that have been discussed that you see as hoarding, but it would be improper to assume others do before they told you they do as well.

And “caring” for others outside the Church includes a lot more behaviours than just feeding them.  Bringing the gospel to them is the best care we can give them. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Calm

[latterdaytemplar]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Like being required to enter the temple to make certain covenants is voluntary?

Yes, just as being a disciple of Christ and striving for eternal life in the presence of the Father are also voluntary.

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, glad you're keeping track.  I shouldn't regurgitate it so much. It's abusive to me.  

If interested, I'm not the only one that brings it up. Sorry to throw Cinepro under the bus, apologies. But here is a previous thread about it and hopefully not going to throw the subject of the thread off. 

 

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

😆

[Tacenda]

Have a thought. Yes, sometimes I think.

I know or think, there is a scripture in D&C about the members being able to disagree or express their feelings about what the leaders do and that they are able to protest. Now more than ever, I believe the members are more in a conformity mode. Does anyone have the scripture/scriptures in D&C that I'm talking about? Like being able to confirm someone in their callings once a year in gen conference, should we be able to voice our opinion about how the church spends it's money? Especially true believing members, should they be able to w/o repurcussions? 

 

[ksfisher]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

should we be able to voice our opinion about how the church spends it's money? Especially true believing members, should they be able to w/o repurcussions? 

There are millions of members in the church today.  We're going to need a pretty big table and several million donuts if we're all going to sit around and come to a consensus about how the church should spend it's money. 

It's also interesting that you think true believing members should do this.  You've been open about your struggles.  Aren't you eliminating yourself from the discussion then?

[HappyJackWagon]

On 6/23/2021 at 12:33 PM, JLHPROF said:

Yeah, those Saints who paid tithing in the 1920s must be absolutely furious.
How dare the Church invest that tithing in such a way that they haven't had to dip into tithing for new investments in decades.

Did I say "how dare the church invest"?

I'm seeing some angry responses to my post yet no one is claiming it isn't true. They just don't like the implications.

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Did I say "how dare the church invest"?

I'm seeing some angry responses to my post yet no one is claiming it isn't true. They just don't like the implications.

The annoyance is that there still seems to be the idea that the Church is still using today's tithing for all these commercial projects (like City Creek for instance).

I think they haven't probably used a dime of tithing money on these things in decades.  The idea that all the Church's cash flow comes from tithing doesn't make much sense any more.

President Hinckley indicated that it's true the majority of Church income came from tithes and fast offerings and that the Church relies on them for Church operations like chapels, temples, etc.
But also that the Church's commercial investments dating back decades provided a source of income and that is used in the commercial part of the Church (like City Creek mall).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/church-finances-commercial-businesses?lang=eng

The annoyance is from the insinuation that the Church is using tithing to increase its commercial value.
 

[juliann]

21 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I think the moral issue is rather obvious and traditionally understood, and applied to many types of wealthy institutions and individuals.  Miserly penuriousness is well-understood as a form of greed, for example. And this type of criticism is especially sharp when the institution or individual sets it or themselves up as a standard of righteousness and goodness to the world.

Which, ironically, is what you set yourself up as with the constant criticism. 

My measure of valid criticism is whether or not the complainer does what they expect their chosen target to do. The answer is always a resounding no. Those who excoriate the church never give up all of their money or give up buying a house, computer, or the many other luxuries of life to reduce suffering of others. I guess it all depends on your definition of greed. How many pairs of shoes do you have? Just curious. 😉

I am exceedingly sick and tired of the droning sophistry about none of yer business spending habits of others, BTW.

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

There are millions of members in the church today.  We're going to need a pretty big table and several million donuts if we're all going to sit around and come to a consensus about how the church should spend it's money. 

It's also interesting that you think true believing members should do this.  You've been open about your struggles.  Aren't you eliminating yourself from the discussion then?

I wonder if the faithful members feel they shouldn't. Do you happen to know of the scripture I'm talking about in the D&C? Or Doctrine and Covenants, I remember a time that I was told to not shorten the title.

Maybe in the early church, there was a time for a consensus to be accounted for. Currently the church sends out many surveys asking members questions. Should this be a question, or should the church gather input on how it should spend the money?

Thanks ksfisher for your nice responses to the black sheep of the board.  

[juliann]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The Church? Maybe. The Saints? No way. 

This must be the fifth time you've brought up what you saw in a meme once. Each time, I've gone back to the sermon and other sermons from the same Church president to provide the full context and demonstrate that the meme is dishonest. I'm not willing to do that anymore. You can believe falsehoods if you prefer them.

We have seen the same parade of cut & paste lazy anti-church talking points for years, over and over and over. You are in a long line of those who correct it to no avail. Some do choose to believe falsehoods. Sometimes the only remedy is to mute posters who persist. 

[juliann]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

At the moment the surplus has been about 2 billion a year, approximately. At what point are the savings enough?

At the very moment the owners of those savings decide it is enough. Sort of like what happens when you decide that what you have today is enough forever more and you give away any further money or assets that come to you. See how that works?

[juliann]

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The fourfold mission of the church is, paraphrased, preach the gospel, perfect the saints, redeem the dead, and care for the poor and needy. Yes, individual members participate directly in the church's mission, but I would be real hesitant to limit the potential of the church by saying or implying that it as an institution primarily only cares for the poor and needy through its members, or that such is the only way it intends to fulfill the fourth prong of its mission. That's simply not the case. 

I think that the bottom of the issue is something else. The church has an ongoing stream of tithing income, which has consistently over several decades been more than enough, so much so that for many years excess has been invested and multiplied into what appears to be a vast imbalance of assets.

My guess is that church leaders, inasmuch as they are aware of those assets, simply don't know what to do with the bulk of them, and that the assets outpace their ability to organize proportional development. The church collected these funds through a spiritual culture of financial scarcity and is yet to adapt spiritually to a culture of plenty. It is more work to use funds to give responsibly. That takes more infrastructure and planning. My opinion again, but if the potential of the church's assets is going to be maximized in a way consistent with its mission, at some point it must adapt to expand as a philanthropic entity through major structural investment. Perhaps the church is making moves in that direction. It's just hard to know without transparency.

 

My goodness. They ought to hire you, you know so much more than they do!

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Should this be a question, or should the church gather input on how it should spend the money?

Regardless of the question or the organization, with so many people involved would you ever come to agreement?  No.  Personally I think we have good people making decisions who are doing the best they can.  Are they perfect decisions or the same decision the Savior would make if He was down here running thing?  Probably not all the time.  But the Lord is as patient with them as He is with you and I (which I'm personally very, very grateful for). 

I believe the Lord trusts the leaders of the church to do the best job they can.  I believe that from time to time He offers correction and advice to them.  I believe they act on that correction and advice.  I have every confidence that the money I donate to the church is being spent in a manner pleasing to the Lord. 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by ksfisher