JAHS Posted June 23, 2021 Author Posted June 23, 2021 40 minutes ago, Douglas Avans said: If these kinds of numbers from UK Corporate House are any indication of what Farmland and Ag Reserves contributes to charity then it appears to be up to 75 percent of profits some years. Farmland filing at UK Corporate House For some reason your link is not working for me. Getting access denied message.
Calm Posted June 23, 2021 Posted June 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, Douglas Avans said: Alberta Heritage Fund Would love to understand this reference having lived in Alberta for much of my adult life, but perhaps that would take it too political.
strappinglad Posted June 23, 2021 Posted June 23, 2021 22 minutes ago, Calm said: Would love to understand this reference This was started during the hay-days of the resource boom in Alberta as a kind of rainy day fund. It was supposed to be used to buffer and provide funds for the long haul. At one time it had several billions in it. It has been seriously depleted by low interest rates and low oil prices. Norway did a much better job with its fund. 1
strappinglad Posted June 23, 2021 Posted June 23, 2021 Spoiler alert! If you don't want to pay tithing to the Church... DON'T. I just watched a video that said 4 men in the world control the same amount of wealth as the poorest 3+ billion people. These same men paid little ( 1% ) in Federal tax but also gave millions to charity. There are lots of people upset about this situation but we don't see what THOSE PEOPLE gave to charity. 1
Calm Posted June 23, 2021 Posted June 23, 2021 37 minutes ago, Douglas Avans said: This might be better, JAHS. Farmland Reserve UK Filings Here is a screenshot that might be what is being looked for, let me know if my guess is wrong. 2
Calm Posted June 23, 2021 Posted June 23, 2021 34 minutes ago, strappinglad said: This was started during the hay-days of the resource boom in Alberta as a kind of rainy day fund. It was supposed to be used to buffer and provide funds for the long haul. At one time it had several billions in it. It has been seriously depleted by low interest rates and low oil prices. Norway did a much better job with its fund. Yeah, my husband and I have not been happy about what has happened to it since we left. We thought it a highly intelligent resource. Alberta had a lot of things going for it that made it hard to leave (I was hoping we could return when retired before my son’s marriage to a Utah girl who is very rooted here pretty much torpedoed those plans...family before climate, there is always air conditioning but grandkids are limited). I was wondering how Douglas tied it in and he explained it well, but probably a good idea to explain what it is first since only a few of the board probably were aware of it when I asked.
rodheadlee Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 5 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Hyperbole. Not really.
Meadowchik Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 5 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Not really. Really, also presumption about what another is thinking and deflection of the point. I came on this thread and identified what is imo a major moral question surrounding the church's assets. I don't know if the church contributes a proportional amount of its increase, maybe no one does. It's hard to know in the absence of transparency.
Stargazer Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 10 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Of course you would only be happy if they gave every penny of it away. 10 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Hyperbole. Well, Meadowchik, how close is rodheadlee to your preferred slice of charity you believe the church should be giving away to whatever charitable function you feel they should be devoting it to? You have every right to have any opinion you want about any subject you have an opinion about. So I have no real complaint about your grousing about the church not doing what you would do if you had the same level of resources. But what do you really think the function of a church, any church, is supposed to be? Is it supposed to be a strictly charitable organization? Or is it supposed to be the promulgation of religious doctrine? Or perhaps some kind of mix between the two? I'd guess you feel it's the last, correct me if I'm wrong. If that is the case, what is your preferred mix? By the way, there's nothing stopping you from starting up your own charitable organization that collects donations in order to help fix the problems you see in the world. Perhaps you already have. If so, hooray! I wish you success. 2
Meadowchik Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Calm said: The Church I would agree is not required (though it has chosen to do so in many ways which may be confusing). However, its members themselves are asked to fill that role of caring for the poor where they can, I believe. I think people get confused about the role of the Church, what the organization’s programs/missions are meant to achieve (creating opportunities to become disciples of Christ) and what is asked by God of members who are committed to living the faith. I see the Church as preparing members to go out and serve the world in a variety of ways including helping those in poverty while the Church’s purpose in regards to the world is to bring the Gospel to all. That it has been able to expand its mission to act as the hands of members helping others due to the generosity and commitment of its members and wisdom of those who oversee the contributions of the faithful is wonderful. The Church has made it very easy for members to serve others as God would have us do…but to feed and care for nonmembers in temporal ways is not the Church’s burden, but its members…and anyone else who seeks to live a Christ directed life imo. The fourfold mission of the church is, paraphrased, preach the gospel, perfect the saints, redeem the dead, and care for the poor and needy. Yes, individual members participate directly in the church's mission, but I would be real hesitant to limit the potential of the church by saying or implying that it as an institution primarily only cares for the poor and needy through its members, or that such is the only way it intends to fulfill the fourth prong of its mission. That's simply not the case. I think that the bottom of the issue is something else. The church has an ongoing stream of tithing income, which has consistently over several decades been more than enough, so much so that for many years excess has been invested and multiplied into what appears to be a vast imbalance of assets. My guess is that church leaders, inasmuch as they are aware of those assets, simply don't know what to do with the bulk of them, and that the assets outpace their ability to organize proportional development. The church collected these funds through a spiritual culture of financial scarcity and is yet to adapt spiritually to a culture of plenty. It is more work to use funds to give responsibly. That takes more infrastructure and planning. My opinion again, but if the potential of the church's assets is going to be maximized in a way consistent with its mission, at some point it must adapt to expand as a philanthropic entity through major structural investment. Perhaps the church is making moves in that direction. It's just hard to know without transparency. Edited June 24, 2021 by Meadowchik
Meadowchik Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Stargazer said: If that is the case, what is your preferred mix? I don't know, but the apparent imbalance of assets suggests to me that more should be invested humanitarian causes. I recommend you read my above post for a bit more context. But what others seem to reject and/or tried to deflect from is that 1)hoarding vast wealth is a moral issue, whether the church is doing so or not, and 2)the church has a moral obligation to care for others outside its membership. Edited June 24, 2021 by Meadowchik
Popular Post teddyaware Posted June 24, 2021 Popular Post Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: I don't know, but the apparent imbalance of assets suggests to me that more should be invested humanitarian causes. I recommend you read my above post for a bit more context. But what others seem to reject and/or tried to deflect from is that 1)hoarding vast wealth is a moral issue, whether the church is doing so or not, and 2)the church has a moral obligation to care for others outside its membership. The greatest charitable cause the Church is now actively preparing to fully participate in is the establishment of Zion and the city of the New Jerusalem. I order to fulfill the many prophecies of LDS scripture that powerfully testify the Zion of peace and safety will arise in the midst of a world that has otherwise descended into constant worldwide warfare and frequent cataclysmic natural disasters that will come as a consequence of wholesale rebellion against God and ripened iniquity. The reason why you think the way you do is likely because you don’t believe the Church is true and therefore reject any idea of the establishment of the prophesied Zion of peace, safety and refuge. In spite of how you think and how angry you now feel, you’ll have to get used to the fact that there are millions of believing Latter-Day Saints, including the leaders of the Church, who have faith that the prophecies concerning the establishment of Zion are real and going to be gloriously fulfilled. Therefore you’re either going to have to be resign yourself to remain in a state of constant outrage or learn to relax by forgiving the Latter-Day Saints for believing in their own scriptures. It’s going to require a tremendous amount of funds, capital and resources for the saints to be able to fully establish Zion and her stakes all over the world while the rest of planet earth descends into the terrible tribulations of the last days prophesied by the Lord Jesus Christ himself. So for your own peace of mind why not suspend the outrage you feel and develop a more charitable and compassionate “let’s see” attitude? Is it not possible to develop a live and let live attitude with a people who honestly believe the only lasting way to improve the condition of the people of the world is to bring them to God in faith, love and humility? Edited June 24, 2021 by teddyaware 5
Calm Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Meadowchik said: But what others seem to reject and/or tried to deflect from is that 1)hoarding vast wealth is a moral issue I think that what is rejected by defenders of the Church leaders’ choices in regard to finances is any claim that the Church is hoarding (collecting and keeping something for oneself) , not that hoarding vast wealth is a moral issue. I suspect many, even most would answer “yes” to a question worded “do you believe that hoarding vast wealth is immoral”...so no real debate there in our view. The Church is caring for others outside its membership, so no worries there either. Edited June 24, 2021 by Calm 4
Tacenda Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 14 hours ago, strappinglad said: Spoiler alert! If you don't want to pay tithing to the Church... DON'T. I just watched a video that said 4 men in the world control the same amount of wealth as the poorest 3+ billion people. These same men paid little ( 1% ) in Federal tax but also gave millions to charity. There are lots of people upset about this situation but we don't see what THOSE PEOPLE gave to charity. I think the church would be fine w/o tithing. Maybe just donate to those in need. Christ would approve, or if not, please show me documentation that I can believe. Not trying to be combative, just wondered if the church doesn't need, how needed is it. I understand that if a church needs donations then it should definitely be promoted. In order for the work to continue. But our church doesn't need it. And there was an apostle in the leadership that says on the day they don't, it won't be required.
Meadowchik Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 49 minutes ago, Calm said: I think that what is rejected by defenders of the Church leaders’ choices in regard to finances is any claim that the Church is hoarding (collecting and keeping something for oneself) , not that hoarding vast wealth is a moral issue. I suspect many, even most would answer “yes” to a question worded “do you believe that hoarding vast wealth is immoral”...so no real debate there in our view. The Church is caring for others outside its membership, so no worries there either. Well you don't speak for everyone on this thread, going by some of the defending responses.
ksfisher Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 8 minutes ago, Tacenda said: And there was an apostle in the leadership that says on the day they don't, it won't be required. CFR please.
Meadowchik Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, teddyaware said: The greatest charitable cause the Church is now actively preparing to fully participate in is the establishment of Zion and the city of the New Jerusalem. I order to fulfill the many prophecies of LDS scripture that powerfully testify the Zion of peace and safety will arise in the midst of a world that has otherwise descended into constant worldwide warfare and frequent cataclysmic natural disasters that will come as a consequence of wholesale rebellion against God and ripened iniquity. The reason why you think the way you do is likely because you don’t believe the Church is true and therefore reject any idea of the establishment of the prophesied Zion of peace, safety and refuge. In spite of how you think and how angry you now feel, you’ll have to get used to the fact that there are millions of believing Latter-Day Saints, including the leaders of the Church, who have faith that the prophecies concerning the establishment of Zion are real and going to be gloriously fulfilled. Therefore you’re either going to have to be resign yourself to remain in a state of constant outrage or learn to relax by forgiving the Latter-Day Saints for believing in their own scriptures. It’s going to require a tremendous amount of funds, capital and resources for the saints to be able to fully establish Zion and her stakes all over the world while the rest of planet earth descends into the terrible tribulations of the last days prophesied by the Lord Jesus Christ himself. So for your own peace of mind why not suspend the outrage you feel and develop a more charitable and compassionate “let’s see” attitude? Is it not possible to develop a live and let live attitude with a people who honestly believe the only lasting way to improve the condition of the people of the world is to bring them to God in faith, love and humility? Dude, you're projecting way too much here. Nothing in my comments on this thread is angry or indicative of rage. Try listening first, and definitely before trying to counsel me. Edited June 24, 2021 by Meadowchik
Meadowchik Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, ksfisher said: CFR please. Joseph F. Smith, president of the church, 1907: "We expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose... because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for... the kingdom of God."
Tacenda Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 1 minute ago, ksfisher said: CFR please. You are probably aware of it, it was an apostle in the past. I'm sure you've seen it posted. Hoping someone will share it, for the moment I can't find the quote, I don't have a holding place for all of the quotes when needed.
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted June 24, 2021 Popular Post Posted June 24, 2021 15 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I think the church would be fine w/o tithing. The Church? Maybe. The Saints? No way. Quote And there was an apostle in the leadership that says on the day they don't, it won't be required. This must be the fifth time you've brought up what you saw in a meme once. Each time, I've gone back to the sermon and other sermons from the same Church president to provide the full context and demonstrate that the meme is dishonest. I'm not willing to do that anymore. You can believe falsehoods if you prefer them. 6
ksfisher Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Joseph F. Smith, president of the church, 1907: "We expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose... because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for... the kingdom of God." Thank you. Do you have a link or reference?
ksfisher Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: You are probably aware of it, it was an apostle in the past. I'm sure you've seen it posted. I wasn't aware of any such quote, which is why I asked.
Meadowchik Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 4 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Thank you. Do you have a link or reference? https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1907a/page/n4/mode/1up?view=theater
Tacenda Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ksfisher said: I wasn't aware of any such quote, which is why I asked. I will supply it, as soon as I find it. ETA: Looks like Meadowchik found it, thanks. Edited June 24, 2021 by Tacenda
ksfisher Posted June 24, 2021 Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: https://archive.org/details/conferencereport1907a/page/n4/mode/1up?view=theater Here's the full quote "Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it ripht away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God." When he says "we expect to see the day" it sounds to me as if he's offering his opinion. President Smith also says "except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord" Every donation I've ever made has been voluntary. Edited June 24, 2021 by ksfisher 3
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