Church buying up more farms

[juliann]

49 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I would go a step further to say affixing an amount that should be used to help the poor will by definition always have those who disagree. So what are we accomplishing here? Paying out more so as to assuage the grievances of many posters would accomplish just that - the posters in question would no longer complain as though anything were resolved.  

There is an upcoming Sunstone presentation they should go to, How ExMormonism Replicates Mormonism.

Quote

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Ex-Mormons are replicating Mormonism in a dozen ways, from male authority to the Mormon vision of repentance and change, to making ourselves feel better by "giving to the poor," fighting for inequality and justice to prove our worth, and most of all--trying to perfect our way into godhood. The same sexism, heteronormativity, binary way of seeing the world--we still have it.

Presenter Mette Harrison notes, "And the last thing I want to do is to pretend I'm not doing it. I'm still Mormon."

 

 Passing by the weirdness of buying into character traits belonging to an institutional religion, I have remarked on the increasingly obvious habits of exMormons (who don't seem to move on) to be pretty much what they criticize in almost every respect.  The double standards are my gripe as I become increasingly bored with the nonstop get on a soapbox finger pointing at others. 

It reminds me of the "I'm saved and yer not" platform of some religions. Without a well defined standard of "yer not saved" to measure oneself against, one can't know if they are saved. What Harrison seems to be acknowledging is that we need a standard by which to measure ourselves. Religion provides that. Each Sunday I can reflect on where I am in regards to those standards. Exmos are going to still need that so they do stuff like come on message boards and express concern for "the poor" by excoriating others who don't meet their expectations in caring for "the poor" for them. I don't know that I have ever seen an exMo demonstrate the concern by giving away most of their stuff, however. I do occasionally read of them giving their tithing to good causes but that is as far as it goes. 

Anyway, this should be an interesting seminar although I wonder how much self-reflection beyond the Mormon boogeyman there will be. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m trying to understand why some participants on this board can’t seem to get it into their heads that the Church is going to need a tremendous amount of capital, resources, and real estate…

Arguing about capital…more than likely one of two things… first, because they assume if things have gotten that bad, money will be pretty meaningless, so better to spend it when it still has worth and second, they may reason it is a better cause to spend now as the last days may never come…plus why not help the world put off the disasters as long as possible by making this the best world we can now by helping others….like investing money, investing in people now pays off more in the long run in their view than waiting until later (think putting money into education which allows a person to get a better paying job on their own and build up savings and get insurance for life’s disasters rather than waiting till later and then needing to provide help with medical costs and other needs because low income leads to disaster debt).

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Arguing about capital…more than likely one of two things… first, because they assume if things have gotten that bad, money will be pretty meaningless, so better to spend it when it still has worth and second, they may reason it is a better cause to spend now as the last days may never come…plus why not help the world put off the disasters as long as possible by making this the best world we can now by helping others….like investing money, investing in people now pays off more in the long run in their view than waiting until later (think putting money into education which allows a person to get a better paying job on their own and build up savings and get insurance for life’s disasters rather than waiting till later and then needing to provide help with medical costs and other needs because low income leads to disaster debt).

I believe Jesus or Heavenly Father will tell the prophet when it is time to cash in.

In the Cardston Temple vision this subject is covered. 

 

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

You should write out your questions now and then take notes on his answers, so you can remember details to report and won’t hit yourself thinking “if only I had asked that!”

I am not quite as good at coming up with them. He called today but I couldn't talk because I was golfing with my husband and a couple of friends. I asked if he could call on Monday and he said that would be fine. I started golfing at 3:24 and so I wouldn't be able to get his call today since the latest he could call was at 5:00 and I wouldn't be done. 

Do you have suggestions, I'm nervous about it. I was impressed with how nice a guy he was in the minutes I spoke with him. 

[Calm]

What is it you most want to know about?  

some ideas from your posts, I will add as they occur, so if you want to use them check back..maybe others can contribute as well.

Do church owned businesses pay anything like a tithe or maybe what happens to profit from church owned businesses?

One or two for me..

The Church pays for overhead of humanitarian costs, does this amount come from tithing or something else?  What percentage of expenses for the humanitarian projects does the Church cover (how much is the overhead in comparison to the rest of the work)?  I doubt he will be able to supply those numbers as likely if varies widely per project.

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Calm

[JustAnAustralian]

Another possible one:

What process is used to allocate non-directed giving (i.e. if someone uses their will to leave money or property "to the church") to specific things.

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is it you most want to know about?  

some ideas from your posts, I will add as they occur, so if you want to use them check back..maybe others can contribute as well.

Do church owned businesses pay anything like a tithe or maybe what happens to profit from church owned businesses?

One or two for me..

The Church pays for overhead of humanitarian costs, does this amount come from tithing or something else?  What percentage of expenses for the humanitarian projects does the Church cover (how much is the overhead in comparison to the rest of the work)?  I doubt he will be able to supply those numbers as likely if varies widely per project.

 

Good questions Calm. My only one was the question you mentioned I had and if the church donates to charity any monies from business profits. I think if it's tithing, it's only going to go back into the church, I'm thinking more outside of the church expenditures for temple/church buildings etc. I'm basically wondering if the business side donates to the various charities out there, including LDS ones.  

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Another possible one:

What process is used to allocate non-directed giving (i.e. if someone uses their will to leave money or property "to the church") to specific things.

Thanks for the question, I'll ask it. 

[JAHS]

30 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is it you most want to know about?  

some ideas from your posts, I will add as they occur, so if you want to use them check back..maybe others can contribute as well.

Do church owned businesses pay anything like a tithe or maybe what happens to profit from church owned businesses?

One or two for me..

The Church pays for overhead of humanitarian costs, does this amount come from tithing or something else?  What percentage of expenses for the humanitarian projects does the Church cover (how much is the overhead in comparison to the rest of the work)?  I doubt he will be able to supply those numbers as likely if varies widely per project.

 

Expand  

Good questions Calm. My only one was the question you mentioned I had and if the church donates to charity any monies from business profits. I think if it's tithing, it's only going to go back into the church, I'm thinking more outside of the church expenditures for temple/church buildings etc. I'm basically wondering if the business side donates to the various charities out there, including LDS ones.  

 I am pretty sure that since the investments come or came from members tithing over the past decades, those resources are not used for humanitarian services. That arm of the church finance comes from fast offering and other members donations to humanitarians services. I am pretty sure they keep it mostly separate. But I could be wrong.

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Another possible one:

What process is used to allocate non-directed giving (i.e. if someone uses their will to leave money or property "to the church") to specific things.

That could get complicated...

[JustAnAustralian]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

That could get complicated...

It could, but I was thinking more of the basic level of whether it just got dumped in a pot for later use, converted straight to investments, etc, rather than "old mother betty left us $50, should we buy some jars of tomatoes, or a sleeping bag"

[Calm]

Maybe better to say it like “if someone just gives money as a gift to the Church without directions, what happens to it; does it bet put into general funds, investments, or something else” so that he gets a general, but not too technical answer is acceptable and so has more chance of answering?

Edited June 26, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, JAHS said:

 I am pretty sure that since the investments come or came from members tithing over the past decades, those resources are not used for humanitarian services. That arm of the church finance comes from fast offering and other members donations to humanitarians services. I am pretty sure they keep it mostly separate. But I could be wrong.

I remember Pres Hinckley saying overhead for charities was covered by tithing...but my memory being what it is...

added:  while tithing is mention contributing to humanitarian efforts, it doesn’t specify how nor does it specify the source of funding for overhead costs.

Quote

Tithing

In keeping with the biblical practice of tithes, Latter-day Saints offer one-tenth of their income to the Church. These funds are used for:

Providing buildings or places of worship for members around the world. We have thousands of such buildings and continue to open more, sometimes several in a week.

Providing education programs, including support for our universities and our seminary and institute programs.

Supporting the Church’s worldwide missionary program.

Building and operating more than 140 temples around the world and the administration of the world’s largest family history program.

Supporting the Church’s welfare programs and humanitarian aid, which serve people around the world — both members of the Church as well as those who are not members

https://news-bz.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/humanitarian-aid-welfare-services-breakdown-donations-costs-resources

Edited June 26, 2021 by Calm

[JAHS]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I remember Pres Hinckley saying overhead for charities was covered by tithing...but my memory being what it is...

added:  while tithing is mention contributing to humanitarian efforts, it doesn’t specify how nor does it specify the source of funding for overhead costs.

https://news-bz.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/humanitarian-aid-welfare-services-breakdown-donations-costs-resources

You may be right about the overhead.  My ward is a pretty typical mix of poor and semi wealthy members and last year the members gave about $5000 just to Humanitarian aid. If you multiply that times 31000 congregations worldwide that comes to about 150 million dollars per year. 

[JustAnAustralian]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Maybe better to say it like “if someone just gives money as a gift to the Church without directions, what happens to it; does it bet put into general funds, investments, or something else” so that he gets a general, but not too technical answer is acceptable and so has more chance of answering?

Yep, that's what I meant. Thanks for the rewording.

[Meadowchik]

20 hours ago, Fether said:

The issue people have is they feel for a church to be Christlike, they need to give away all they have. 

Who feels that? Who has said that?

[Meadowchik]

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

so you are therefore setting yourself up for endless anger and frustration 

You describe belief in prophetic doom-saying then say I am setting myself up. That's just silly. You are literally setting yourself up to expect mass doom and destruction. 

 

 

 

[Meadowchik]

19 hours ago, juliann said:

I know the answer because anyone who can afford a computer could be giving more to the poor. It is the ultimate privilege to think you can sit comfortably in America and think you aren't hoarding or greedy. You didn't answer how many shoes you have. That is the question I ask because if it is more than one, you are the living example of not doing what you lecture others about. 

That's ridiculous. Show me where I expect the church or anyone else to adopt spartan asceticism. I don't. I'm not the type of person who believes homeless people shouldn't have smart phones. Take your one-shoe strawman elsewhere.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

16 hours ago, juliann said:

So you are giving away your stuff and emptying your savings so you aren't keeping anything just in case? 

Have I said that I expect the church to give away all its stuff and empty its savings and not keep anything just in case? No.

In fact, I have openly said several times that I don't know where the church stands exactly in relation to its humanitarian investments and other investments.

I have, however, introduced the concept of hoarding as a moral problem. 

There seems to be an excess of defensiveness here toward even hinting that the church should be held to a high moral standard regarding its financials.

 

[Meadowchik]

15 hours ago, Rain said:

Posting over and over again how you feel the church is not doing enough undermines your statement that we don't have enough info.

That mischaracterizes my participation on this thread.

I have introduced the concept of hoarding as a moral problem. I have said several times that, without transparency, we cannot be sure where the church stands on that regard. I have said that, given what we do know, the investments suggest an issue with disproportionate investment, but I said this while again saying we can't be sure.

15 hours ago, Rain said:

But if we don't have enough information to know the church is doing good enough then we also don't have enough info to know the church is doing too badly. 

That's not necessarily true. A reasonable estimate of operating costs is known, and of annual tithing receipts producing an significant amount--about 2 billion--above operating costs. Add to that the 100 billion or so investment funding, and the church's own admission of spending 50 million or so in humanitarian aid over several years, and there is a strong argument that the church is probably hoarding wealth in every reasonable sense of the word. Of course we cannot be totally sure. But it is a fair assessment.

That probably explains the defensiveness by some on this topic. 

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, juliann said:

There is an upcoming Sunstone presentation they should go to, How ExMormonism Replicates Mormonism.

 Passing by the weirdness of buying into character traits belonging to an institutional religion, I have remarked on the increasingly obvious habits of exMormons (who don't seem to move on) to be pretty much what they criticize in almost every respect.  The double standards are my gripe as I become increasingly bored with the nonstop get on a soapbox finger pointing at others. 

It reminds me of the "I'm saved and yer not" platform of some religions. Without a well defined standard of "yer not saved" to measure oneself against, one can't know if they are saved. What Harrison seems to be acknowledging is that we need a standard by which to measure ourselves. Religion provides that. Each Sunday I can reflect on where I am in regards to those standards. Exmos are going to still need that so they do stuff like come on message boards and express concern for "the poor" by excoriating others who don't meet their expectations in caring for "the poor" for them. I don't know that I have ever seen an exMo demonstrate the concern by giving away most of their stuff, however. I do occasionally read of them giving their tithing to good causes but that is as far as it goes. 

Anyway, this should be an interesting seminar although I wonder how much self-reflection beyond the Mormon boogeyman there will be. 

There is a difference, though, between griping about Mormons or exMormons and griping about the church. The LDS church is a wealthy and powerful entity itself, much more than any one person and it is not a bad thing if people "gripe" about it, or offer scrutiny and criticism of it far surpassing scrutiny or criticism of individual people. 

Do you agree that there is a vast power differential between individual people and the LDS Church?

[Meadowchik]

17 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Except it's wrong.  The Church as an organization has no obligation to give away a higher percentage of its annual increase to those outside the Church.  They can donate.  There is no legal or moral obligation to do so.

1) The church does concede a moral obligation to help the poor and needy and not just poor and needy members.

2) That this help should be more than it is is not up to you. At minimum, individuals can decide what standards they expect the church to uphold.

[juliann]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That's ridiculous. Show me where I expect the church or anyone else to adopt spartan asceticism. I don't. I'm not the type of person who believes homeless people shouldn't have smart phones. Take your one-shoe strawman elsewhere.

Again, you dodge. My measure of wealth is owning more than one pair of shoes. How many do you own as you lecture others about "hoarding?"

 

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Have I said that I expect the church to give away all its stuff and empty its savings and not keep anything just in case? No.

In fact, I have openly said several times that I don't know where the church stands exactly in relation to its humanitarian investments and other investments.

I have, however, introduced the concept of hoarding as a moral problem. 

There seems to be an excess of defensiveness here toward even hinting that the church should be held to a high moral standard regarding its financials.

 

Yet you dodge the idea that individuals who demand others be held to a "high moral standard" (of your own definition that apparently doesn't include you) aren't hoarding. How many pairs of shoes do you own? How many articles of clothing are in your closet? How much do you spend on air conditioning? What did your car cost? 

I can do this forever. Just like you. The excess of defensiveness that you want this to be is an excess of weariness over this standards for you but not for me hobby horse of yours. I think that has been explained adequately. I also think it has been explained over and over and over and over and over and over that members on this board who choose to give their money to their church don't share your gripes about a church you don't give money to. Your derisive comments about tithe payers are insulting and belittling in case you haven't clued into that yet.

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

There is a difference, though, between griping about Mormons or exMormons and griping about the church. The LDS church is a wealthy and powerful entity itself, much more than any one person and it is not a bad thing if people "gripe" about it, or offer scrutiny and criticism of it far surpassing scrutiny or criticism of individual people. 

Do you agree that there is a vast power differential between individual people and the LDS Church?

 Seriously? You really think that a church with so few members compared to exponentially more of those "individual people" is a vast power differential? Isn't a favored angry exMo talking point that the church is dwindling and flailing? Pick a story and stick with it. 

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you agree that there is a vast power differential between individual people and the LDS Church?

I have never felt that being the case, because the people are the church so that can't happen.
"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For the body is not one member, but many." (1 Cor 12)

If you are referring to the church authorities I would not call that power but simply leadership. Someone has to do that or there would be confusion and a lack of clear direction.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" (Eph 4)

Edited June 26, 2021 by JAHS

[Fether]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Who feels that? Who has said that?

Perhaps no one. Can you share with me why you feel the church should donate more to charity?