A possible life outside mormonism

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Fether said:

.........................

The vast majority of my friends that left the church are completely Enamored with taking down the church and proving it is wrong. I have a mission buddy who left the church upward ago. I looked up his Facebook the other day just to see how he was doing. Well, he is still posting the same caliber anti-Mormon stuff he was when he left all those years ago. He cannot let it ago, it is all he posts about. He is obsessed with destroying the faith of others and attacking the organization he was once a part of. He can’t possibly be happy. This is the sad fate of most my friends that leave the church. Not all, but most.

Your very frank observations are entirely on target.  However, all that ire is no threat to the LDS Church.  It is sad that those people don't simply live their lives.

10 hours ago, Fether said:

One last observation. Decision making is done by two factors. We make decisions by emotion, then we justify by logics. Mormon Stories thrives on getting people mad, then listing everything that is wrong with the church. They are pro salesmen. If you are spending all your emotional energy on watching MS and hearing their emotional and logical arguments  and only going to church sources to find logical arguments, you will most definitely follow MS. Just make sure you are listening to GC. Listen to their messages, find the emotional reason to stay in the church along with the logical

Neither emotion nor logic are adequate reasons for leaving or staying in a church, any church.  A religion is only of value if it has something more to offer than mere emotion or logic.  Of course, if one believes that a human has only emotion and logic, then the die is cast.  For those who believe that there is something more, that may be a fit reason for faith.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

You said you can’t imagine why a “normal” person would leave the church. How should that judgmental statement be interpreted?

In my experience, "normal" people are pretty humdrum and predictable.  They seldom make big decisions, preferring to follow the path they are already on.  They do what is expected of them, get married, have children, and enjoy interacting with their siblings, parents, and old friends.  You can see fairly well which part of the Bell curve they fit into, and how they can be described as "normal."

You are not a normal person, and neither am I.  Indeed, most of the denizens of this blog are abnormal in some way.  Otherwise we would not be here.  Normal people have the good sense not to waste their time on MDDB or any other such board. 

[JLHPROF]

36 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

I don’t know why any normal person would leave the Church. 

There's no such thing as a "normal person".  God's not that lacking in creativity.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In my experience, "normal" people are pretty humdrum and predictable.  They seldom make big decisions, preferring to follow the path they are already on.  They do what is expected of them, get married, have children, and enjoy interacting with their siblings, parents, and old friends.  You can see fairly well which part of the Bell curve they fit into, and how they can be described as "normal."

You are not a normal person, and neither am I.  Indeed, most of the denizens of this blog are abnormal in some way.  Otherwise we would not be here.  Normal people have the good sense not to waste their time on MDDB or any other such board. 

True, but my lack of normality wasn’t the reason I left. Suggesting there is something wrong with those who leave makes it difficult to help people stay. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

12 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Also for any ex-mormons / Mormons in your experience, if someone decides to leave the church, will the rest of their life be consumed with always researching church doctrine and teachings to try to justify exiting a religion they probably grew up in?

 

Plenty of serious happening in this thread, so here's a laugh:

Fred: I thought about giving up coffee, but decided I didn't want to give up the health benefits.

LDSFred: What health benefits do coffee give you?

Fred: Well, for one thing, it keeps me from being Mormon...

[mrmarklin]

16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

You said you can’t imagine why a “normal” person would leave the church. How should that judgmental statement be interpreted?

Normal is a fairly broad spectrum. I consider myself a normal person, but not a normal LDS. 

Throughout my life, even in youth all my best friends were not and aren’t members. My interests have not coincided with those of my peers in my local area. I’m not a hard core temple goer and I have no problem using a great deal of my time doing my hobbies and traveling with my friends outside the church. I have held callings, but currently don’t. 
I’ve privately disagreed with many policies from SLC, mostly because our leaders are products of what I call Mormon culture. They have a difficult time seeing beyond Utah,  it this is hopefully changing. 
It’s still the best way to live. I have a great family. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Normal is a fairly broad spectrum. I consider myself a normal person, but not a normal LDS. 

Throughout my life, even in youth all my best friends were not and aren’t members. My interests have not coincided with those of my peers in my local area. I’m not a hard core temple goer and I have no problem using a great deal of my time doing my hobbies and traveling with my friends outside the church. I have held callings, but currently don’t. 
I’ve privately disagreed with many policies from SLC, mostly because our leaders are products of what I call Mormon culture. They have a difficult time seeing beyond Utah,  it this is hopefully changing. 
It’s still the best way to live. I have a great family. 

Out of most religions, I'd pick the LDS one. I couldn't go near an EV one because I don't believe in everything in the Bible. And I'm now glad that the LDS church believes in it as far as it is translated correctly. Also, I'm glad the church is willing to evolve with the times, it might take them a while but they eventually catch up. ETA: I only wish that the church wouldn't say it is the only church to get you to live with God, I don't believe this at all.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Dang it!! This ⬆️ makes me sad, if you need me to write anything in the sand this week just ask😁, I don't want you to be sad. I'll even mail you some beach sand if you want, maybe a couple sea shells, that way you can smell the ocean.😂😂

I missed you to, I always look forward to your post. You're a smart women.

Thanks Mike, I didn't know how good I had it while in. Enjoyed the callings and the visiting teaching, but things changed, programs changed, and it's not the same. And older members with kids out of the house usually don't get the callings like they did when they had the younger families, so who knows, it might have been this way whether I went inactive or not. I remember my mom saying they kind of put her out to pasture when she was older. 

ETA: Also, my political views definitely changed when I had my faith crisis. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Tacenda

[3DOP]

9 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm glad you can see that so thank you for saying that. I'm definitely doing and feeling better, like I said, I'm exploring if our family life would be better outside the church and I'm not seeing much benefit if I leave the church. Matter of fact, the more I read on exmormon Reddit the more I'm starting to realize that I think that exmormonism is almost a religion unto itself. I could be wrong though, I'll admit that, but the intensity to trash Mormonism on that site is amazing to me, I haven't figured that part out yet. 

      I'm starting to wonder if leaving the gospel is so intense to some people, people possibly with my personality type that have a need to explore, might always leave a void that can't be filled because it's a bottoless pit of exploration. If so, that won't be beneficial to me or my family. So many questions. 

 

A good God does not hand anyone a "bottomless pit of exploration".    

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

A good God does not hand anyone a "bottomless pit of exploration".    

The same statement could be made about Alzheimer’s or being born in North Korea.

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

A good God does not hand anyone a "bottomless pit of exploration".  

I look at exploration as an infinite expanse of glory myself. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

True, but my lack of normality wasn’t the reason I left. Suggesting there is something wrong with those who leave makes it difficult to help people stay. 

Not according to the sociological studies:  Most people leaving were already borderline.  Most stay.  Inertia is probably a big part of that fact.  However, it isn't so much that there is something wrong with people who leave, as that they are simply different.

[Robert F. Smith]

52 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

A good God does not hand anyone a "bottomless pit of exploration".    

Is that akin to a rabbit hole, Rory?

Edited April 19, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The same statement could be made about Alzheimer’s or being born in North Korea.

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I look at exploration as an infinite expanse of glory myself. 

Sure calm...I misunderstood him perhaps. Mike meant a "bottomless pit" in a good way? Anyway, you got me...discovery is good...I am not sure I could think that this is what Mike meant.

 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Is that akin to a rabbit hole, Rory?

Robert, it is whatever Mike meant. And Mike, whatever you say. I understood you to mean something impossible to find, where the next discovery leads you to feel more hopeless than before.  

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Sure calm...I misunderstood him perhaps. Mike meant a "bottomless pit" in a good way? Anyway, you got me...discovery is good...I am not sure I could think that this is what Mike meant.

I understood him to want to have answers, something that settles questions once and for all....which is not a bad thing.  But I don’t have the same need. I see answers that open up more questions as more fun. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Not according to the sociological studies:  Most people leaving were already borderline.  Most stay.  Inertia is probably a big part of that fact.  However, it isn't so much that there is something wrong with people who leave, as that they are simply different.

Not me..

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I wish I could say I did but we’ve only been here for two years and I haven’t helped anyone pack:) Although I was born in Ft. Worth, the majority of my adult life was spent in Arlington, TX. When did you move? 

I grew up in Arlington!

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The same statement could be made about Alzheimer’s or being born in North Korea.

The Nehor, hi. I don't think so. Neither Alzheimer's nor being native North Korean seems to me like consignment to a "bottomless pit of exploration". If I misunderstood Mike, he will correct me. I thought his expression was a reference to an idea that God places souls in a position where one can not know what one needs to know. Alzheimer's relieves one of any exploration, and I am confident that God takes consideration for "being born in North Korea". I hold that it is the will of a good God that people are born all over the globe, and that some of us will experience dementia before we die. But it is not the good God I know, who would place souls born in the choicest places, with the richest gifts of intellect, and they are frustrated because they can never find the good that they are looking for. There is no correlation with Alzhemier's or supposedly unfortunate birth place, which are certainly the will of whatever God any of us believes in, for some precious souls.

A good God will give us the light that we need to find our way to Him. Neither birthplace nor dementia lead to separation from God, as would "a bottomless pit of exploration", as I understood it.  

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

The Nehor, hi. I don't think so. Neither Alzheimer's nor being native North Korean seems to me like consignment to a "bottomless pit of exploration". If I misunderstood Mike, he will correct me. I thought his expression was a reference to an idea that God places souls in a position where one can not know what one needs to know. Alzheimer's relieves one of any exploration, and I am confident that God takes consideration for "being born in North Korea". I hold that it is the will of a good God that people are born all over the globe, and that some of us will experience dementia before we die. But it is not the good God I know, who would place souls born in the choicest places, with the richest gifts of intellect, and they are frustrated because they can never find the good that they are looking for. There is no correlation with Alzhemier's or supposedly unfortunate birth place, which are certainly the will of whatever God any of us believes in, for some precious souls.

A good God will give us the light that we need to find our way to Him. Neither birthplace nor dementia lead to separation from God, as would "a bottomless pit of exploration", as I understood it.  

This thing you say God would never allow to happen happened to most of the world. The choice Mayan who had no way to find Christianity. Then you turn to the millennia before Christ. Did all have access to Israel’s truths or was it a provincial thing?

I believe in a good God but insisting God will grant truth to all who seek it will require a pretty robust correction in the afterlife.

[Fether]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Neither emotion nor logic are adequate reasons for leaving or staying in a church, any church

For sure. But it is still how we make most decisions. Thing if the last big purchase or decision. It was motivated by emotion and justified by logic.

[3DOP]

I just looked at it again...The "bottomless pit of exploration" is equated with "a void that can't be filled". This doesn't seem like the delight of discovery, but the frustration of the impossibility of arriving at a satisfactory intellectual position. It sounds like being lost. I don't mean "unsaved" theologically. But simply without any bearings, where one could not be culpable for what they think or believe because they are in a darkness not of their own making. I deny that this reflects reality. I accept North Korea. I accept Alzheimer's. But not intellectual darkness. An intellect without light, I will say, is infinitely more horrifying, and the good God who allows dementia and North Korea, would not allow THAT!

Dogmatically my friends, and good night y'all.  Probably see you next weekend. Take care.

Rory

 

[3DOP]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This thing you say God would never allow to happen happened to most of the world. The choice Mayan who had no way to find Christianity. Then you turn to the millennia before Christ. Did all have access to Israel’s truths or was it a provincial thing?

I believe in a good God but insisting God will grant truth to all who seek it will require a pretty robust correction in the afterlife.

The Nehor, hey. I don't think we can be far apart here.

Thanks for the reply! But you MUST be wrong. Who says you have to "find Christianity" before Christianity? I don't say that. Do you? I don't think you say that. Who says that? God is good. God is good. He will judge the choice Mayan with love and mercy according to the light he had. Right? Oh goodness yes, I insist that a good "God will grant truth to all who seek it" (enough truth to share eternity with God). I am not sure why we should be wary of "robust correction in the afterlife". But in this life, God will not hold anyone accountable for what they could not have known, praised be the good God! God is good and just and fair, and He is not willing that any should perish. Inculpable ignorance might be a beautiful thing, and a mercy for many. 

Regards,

3DOP

[3DOP]

"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world."

---Jn. 1:6-9, along with more of the chapter, read at the end of every Low Mass, in the Traditional Roman Rite. 

A good God will never place a single soul in darkness, or in "a bottomless pit of discovery", or in "a void that can't be filled".

Edited April 19, 2021 by 3DOP

[rodheadlee]

 

If I wasn't Mormon, I'd be Catholic.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

good God will never place a single soul in darkness, or in "a bottomless pit of discovery", or in "a void that can't be filled".

I agree wholeheartedly. However, it may feel like that to us limited mortals whose emotions can feel very overwhelming in the moment...I say this as I feel a panic attack coming on and it feels like it has always been this way and the fear that it will always be this way is pushing against my rational voice that is reassuring me ‘this too will pass’.