Let's try this again. President oaks nailed it imo.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, longview said:

Have you heard about the IRS being weaponized by Lois Lerner during the Obama administration?  Conservative organizations were denied taxing status normally given to non-profits, charities, and like foundations.  On the other hand, liberal and radical organizations were given preferential treatment.  How many of the IRS employees did it take to perpetrate this outrage?   One third?  Three fifths?  How much of the dominant media did it take to run cover for them?  Why did the Obama admin put up with it?  Or did they actively support them?

The Justice Department was politicized.  Remember the term "Operation Fast and Furious" ?  A conspiracy by Eric Holder cronies to falsely create a gun crisis by supplying automatic weapons to criminal cartels at the southern border.  But it blew back in their faces when our law enforcement personnel were killed in skirmishes with cartel criminals and the weapons were traced back to the Justice Department.  Eric Holder was held in contempt by Congress when he refused to comply with subpoenas.  He thumbed his nose at Congress and the American people.  When Loretta Lynch took over, she did plenty of shady things and still there were no accounting made of them.

What about the EPA being used by environmental extremists to punish ranchers, farmers and homesteaders?  For something as simple as heavy rain that turned a small depression on a part of their land into a pond.  Then the farmers would be charged for violating the clean water act or some weird regulations in the vast (often conflicting) code.  Who will speak for the land owners?  They are subjected to ruinous litigation while the government has massive resources.

Ammon Bundy (I know everybody here hates him) was unfairly treated by BLM (Bureau of Land Management).  He had the right for grazing his animals over open spaces.  It was supposed to be grandfathered (he had access for several decades).

Do you see the pattern?  The corruption is massive and unrelenting.  It is no big deal for the LEFT to marshal their forces to overwhelmingly subvert the rights of the people.  What is "utterly laughable" about this?

The IRS thing only became a scandal because several people at that office reported it to Congress so suggesting that it proves how vast conspiracies can get without getting disclosed is shooting yourself in the foot. They were not denied tax exempt status. They were flagged to have that status investigated and the status was unreasonably delayed in being granted. There are mistruths in virtually everything you said but there is no point in debunking it. You will just jump to something else and act like people are quibbling and suggest that the quantity of your accusations are indicative of something. Basically you are using the old-school anti-Mormon playbook.

I am not saying this to justify what the IRS did or anything else. I am saying this because you are either lying or repeating other people who are lying to you. If it is the latter you need to stop trusting the people who keep lying to you. Facts matter. Until they matter to you as well you are just a deceitful propagandist. I suspect you enjoy that status too much to give it up.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Sevenbak said:

Lots.

Ensign, Various Authors, June 1976

[T]he time would come when the constitution and government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the Latter-day Saints will step forth and save it. —Recorded by James Burgess

Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction. —Joseph SmithThe government is fallen and needs redeeming. It is guilty of Blood and cannot stand as it now is but will come so near desolation as to hang as it were by a single hair!!!!! Then the servants goes [sic] to the nations of the earth, and gathers the strength of the Lord’s house! A mighty army! And this is the redemption of Zion when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory! —Joseph Smith, recorded by Parley P. Pratt.

The time will come when the government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saints–the Elders of Israel–will step forward to its rescue and save it. —Joseph Smith, recorded by Eliza R. Snow.

When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe. —Joseph Smith, recorded by Jedediah M. Grant

Conference Report, Charles W. Nibley, October 1923

Brethren and sisters, let me say in closing that we have it of record, that the prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when, through secret organizations taking the law into their own hands, not being governed by law or by due process of law, but becoming a law unto themselves, when, by those disintegrating activities, the Constitution of the United States would be so torn and rent asunder, and life and property and peace and security would be held of so little value, that the Constitution would, as it were, hang by a thread. But he never said, so far as I have heard, that that thread would be cut. I believe, with Elder Richards, that this Constitution will be preserved, but it will be preserved very largely in consequence of what the Lord has revealed and what this people, through listening to the Lord and being obedient, will help to bring about, to stabilize and give permanency and effect to the Constitution itself. That also is our mission. That also is what we are here for. I glory in it. I praise God with all my heart and soul that I am a member of it.

Conference Report, Ezra Taft Benson, October 1961

In connection with attack on the United States, the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time “this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” (Journal History, Brigham Young’s Speech, July 4, 1854.) It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.

Conference Report, J. Reuben Clark, October 1942

You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance. I have said to you before, brethren, that to me the Constitution is a part of my religion. In its place it is just as much a part of my religion as any other part. It is a part of my religion because it is one of those institutions which God has set up for His own purposes, and, as one of the brethren said today, set up so that this Church might be established, because under no other government in the world could the Church have been established as it has been established under this Government.

Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young 12:43

How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.

Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young 2:32

Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings towards the Government. I answer, they are first-rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain; and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. We love the Constitution of our country; it is all we could ask; though in some few instances there might be some amendments made which would better it. We love the Federal Government, and the laws of Congress. There is nothing in those laws that in the least militates against us, not even to our excluding common law from this Territory. I can inform our lawyers who plead at the bar here, that the Congress of the United States have passed laws giving us the privilege of excluding common law at our pleasure, and that too with out any violation of the Constitution, or general statutes. They have also given us privilege to stop drunkenness, swearing, and gambling, and to prevent horse racing, and to punish men for hurting and robbing each other. The Constitution of the United States, and the whole Federal Government, in their acts, have given us this privilege.

Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young 7:2

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, “The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It will be so. With regard to the doings of our fathers and the Constitution of the United States, I have to say, they present to us a glorious prospect in the future, but one we cannot attain to until the present abuses in the Government are corrected.

Journal of Discourses, John Taylor 25:41

[I]t looks very much like as though the time was drawing near when this country will tumble to pieces; for if the people of this nation are so blind and in fatuated as to trample under foot the Constitution and other safeguards provided for the liberties of man, we do not propose to assist them in their suicidal and traitorous enterprises; for we have been told by Joseph Smith that when the people of this nation would trample upon the Constitution, the Elders of this Church would rally round the flag and defend it. And it may come to that; we may be nearer to it than some of us think, for the people are not very zealous in the protection of human rights. And when legislators, governors and judges unite in seeking to tear down the temple of liberty and destroy the bulwarks of human freedom, it will be seen by all lovers of liberty, that they are playing a hazardous game and endangering the perpetuity of human rights. For it will not take long for the unthinking to follow their lead, and they may let loose an element that they never can bind again. We seem to be standing on a precipice and the tumultuous passions of men are agitated by political and party strife; the elements of discord are seething and raging as if portending a coming storm; and no man seems competent to take the helm and guide the ship of State through the fearful breakers that threaten on every hand. These are dangerous things, but it becomes our duty as good citizens to obey the law as far as practicable, and be governed by correct principles.

Journal of Discourses, Orson Hyde 6:23

It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so. I believe he said something like this–that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it.

Interesting.  I appreciate you taking the time to assemble this.  It's still not clear to me, however, whether all of these quotes actually stem from one source or many.  If they all are rooted in White Horse, then that puts them all in that bucket, for example.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

As someone whose name ends with "S" I hate seeing the double s.

Do you mean you hate seeing it with your own name, or you hate seeing it wherever it might occur? 

[halconero]

I have pondered about the relevance of President Oaks’ talk to non-US members, and have come to think it applies very significantly in the lives of those living in flawed-democracies or dictatorships.

My parents lived in Myanmar (Burma) for four years before moving back home last spring due to COVID-19. There were no language branches there, and they attended with the native-Myanmarese members, including the branch president highlighted in the October 2020 conference who learned from the picture Book of Mormon.

That branch president was woken up a few nights ago by the military, and forced out of his home at gun point to go clean the streets after a demonstration. A young sister, just returned from a mission in Thailand, went from wearing a name tag to wearing a bandana, broke democracy t-shirts, and organizing street marches against the junta. She is currently in hiding, and my mom has been messaging her encouraging words, messages of love, and even Ezra Taft Benson quotes about freedom over Facebook.

Lest we wring our hands too much over what non-US members think, I believe messages like these do resonate with them. It certainly has with the members in Myanmar. I wouldn’t be surprised to find accounts about it resonating with members behind the Iron Curtain. President Oaks’ did a good job of elucidating the principles that underlie the US constitution, principles that can be applied in parliamentary democracies, presidential democracies, or other forms of government that respect participatory government and individual liberties.

Edit: I also just recalled a story from my dad while on a walk once. He is Chilean, and came as a refugee to Canada in the 1970s.

He had never done a deep study of D&C, and when he finally did, I remember him sharing how much he loved D&C 134 and its description on government. As someone who fled dictatorship, he felt that section’s principles very keenly, and it meant a lot to him that the Church, and by extension, God, had canonized their statements on participatory government, civil liberties, and the rule of law.

Edited April 7, 2021 by halconero

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is a common silliness amongst ‘intellectual’ anarchy types. It wasn’t the main event or the purpose of the protests. There is another autonomous zone in Belgium if I remember right that has gone on for years. They usually collapse in a few months. It did. It was no threat.

Since we are forever doomed to eternal whataboutism, might as well remind that the CHAZ was not the first occupied zone in the Pacific Northwest. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge

Our church and faith is all over the wikipedia article on that one. If I recall correctly, there was even an armed Captain Moroni defending it.

[Rajah Manchou]

10 minutes ago, halconero said:

My parents lived in Myanmar (Burma) for four years before moving back home last spring due to COVID-19. There were no language branches there, and they attended with the native-Myanmarese members, including the branch president highlighted in the October 2020 conference who learned from the picture Book of Mormon.

That branch president was woken up a few nights ago by the military, and forced out of his home at gun point to go clean the streets after a demonstration. A young sister, just returned from a mission in Thailand, went from wearing a name tag to wearing a bandana, broke democracy t-shirts, and organizing street marches against the junta. She is currently in hiding, and my mom has been messaging her encouraging words, messages of love, and even Ezra Taft Benson quotes about freedom over Facebook.

I've been in and out of Burma the past few decades, working with groups on the border. Many of them are also in hiding some have been thrown in prison. Although I agree with you that Oaks' talk will be comfort to the members of the Church in Myanmar, what is really critical at this point is that leaders in Congress condemn the military for not respecting the results of the election.

Inexplicably 14 members of the House voted against such measures. Presumably to make some political point about election fraud, thinking a vote to condemn the Myanmar military might somehow invalidate their claims of election fraud in the US.

14 House Republicans vote against a measure condemning military coup in Myanmar

I don't think those 14 give a rip about the Constitution. 

[Calm]

59 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do you mean you hate seeing it with your own name, or you hate seeing it wherever it might occur? 

I dislike seeing it used anywhere. Looks unnatural 

[InCognitus]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

I dislike seeing it used anywhere. Looks unnatural 

I agree.  It's kind of like saying cherubims instead of cherubim.  

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, Sevenbak said:

Lots.

Ensign, Various Authors, June 1976

[T]he time would come when the constitution and government would hang by a brittle thread and would be ready to fall into other hands but this people the Latter-day Saints will step forth and save it. —Recorded by James Burgess

Even this nation will be on the verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground and when the Constitution is on the brink of ruin this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction. —Joseph SmithThe government is fallen and needs redeeming. It is guilty of Blood and cannot stand as it now is but will come so near desolation as to hang as it were by a single hair!!!!! Then the servants goes [sic] to the nations of the earth, and gathers the strength of the Lord’s house! A mighty army! And this is the redemption of Zion when the saints shall have redeemed that government and reinstated it in all its purity and glory! —Joseph Smith, recorded by Parley P. Pratt.

The time will come when the government of these United States will be so nearly overthrown through its corruption, that the Constitution will hang as it were by a single hair, and the Latter-day Saints–the Elders of Israel–will step forward to its rescue and save it. —Joseph Smith, recorded by Eliza R. Snow.

When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe. —Joseph Smith, recorded by Jedediah M. Grant

Conference Report, Charles W. Nibley, October 1923

Brethren and sisters, let me say in closing that we have it of record, that the prophet Joseph Smith said the time would come when, through secret organizations taking the law into their own hands, not being governed by law or by due process of law, but becoming a law unto themselves, when, by those disintegrating activities, the Constitution of the United States would be so torn and rent asunder, and life and property and peace and security would be held of so little value, that the Constitution would, as it were, hang by a thread. But he never said, so far as I have heard, that that thread would be cut. I believe, with Elder Richards, that this Constitution will be preserved, but it will be preserved very largely in consequence of what the Lord has revealed and what this people, through listening to the Lord and being obedient, will help to bring about, to stabilize and give permanency and effect to the Constitution itself. That also is our mission. That also is what we are here for. I glory in it. I praise God with all my heart and soul that I am a member of it.

Conference Report, Ezra Taft Benson, October 1961

In connection with attack on the United States, the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith there would be an attempt to overthrow the country by destroying the Constitution. Joseph Smith predicted that the time would come when the Constitution would hang, as it were, by a thread, and at that time “this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” (Journal History, Brigham Young’s Speech, July 4, 1854.) It is my conviction that the elders of Israel, widely spread over the nation, will at that crucial time successfully rally the righteous of our country and provide the necessary balance of strength to save the institutions of constitutional government.

Conference Report, J. Reuben Clark, October 1942

You and I have heard all our lives that the time may come when the Constitution may hang by a thread. I do not know whether it is a thread or a small rope by which it now hangs, but I do know that whether it shall live or die is now in the balance. I have said to you before, brethren, that to me the Constitution is a part of my religion. In its place it is just as much a part of my religion as any other part. It is a part of my religion because it is one of those institutions which God has set up for His own purposes, and, as one of the brethren said today, set up so that this Church might be established, because under no other government in the world could the Church have been established as it has been established under this Government.

Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young 12:43

How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass.

Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young 2:32

Brethren and sisters, our friends wish to know our feelings towards the Government. I answer, they are first-rate, and we will prove it too, as you will see if you only live long enough, for that we shall live to prove it is certain; and when the Constitution of the United States hangs, as it were, upon a single thread, they will have to call for the “Mormon” Elders to save it from utter destruction; and they will step forth and do it. We love the Constitution of our country; it is all we could ask; though in some few instances there might be some amendments made which would better it. We love the Federal Government, and the laws of Congress. There is nothing in those laws that in the least militates against us, not even to our excluding common law from this Territory. I can inform our lawyers who plead at the bar here, that the Congress of the United States have passed laws giving us the privilege of excluding common law at our pleasure, and that too with out any violation of the Constitution, or general statutes. They have also given us privilege to stop drunkenness, swearing, and gambling, and to prevent horse racing, and to punish men for hurting and robbing each other. The Constitution of the United States, and the whole Federal Government, in their acts, have given us this privilege.

Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young 7:2

Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, “The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.” It will be so. With regard to the doings of our fathers and the Constitution of the United States, I have to say, they present to us a glorious prospect in the future, but one we cannot attain to until the present abuses in the Government are corrected.

Journal of Discourses, John Taylor 25:41

[I]t looks very much like as though the time was drawing near when this country will tumble to pieces; for if the people of this nation are so blind and in fatuated as to trample under foot the Constitution and other safeguards provided for the liberties of man, we do not propose to assist them in their suicidal and traitorous enterprises; for we have been told by Joseph Smith that when the people of this nation would trample upon the Constitution, the Elders of this Church would rally round the flag and defend it. And it may come to that; we may be nearer to it than some of us think, for the people are not very zealous in the protection of human rights. And when legislators, governors and judges unite in seeking to tear down the temple of liberty and destroy the bulwarks of human freedom, it will be seen by all lovers of liberty, that they are playing a hazardous game and endangering the perpetuity of human rights. For it will not take long for the unthinking to follow their lead, and they may let loose an element that they never can bind again. We seem to be standing on a precipice and the tumultuous passions of men are agitated by political and party strife; the elements of discord are seething and raging as if portending a coming storm; and no man seems competent to take the helm and guide the ship of State through the fearful breakers that threaten on every hand. These are dangerous things, but it becomes our duty as good citizens to obey the law as far as practicable, and be governed by correct principles.

Journal of Discourses, Orson Hyde 6:23

It is said that brother Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it. This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so. I believe he said something like this–that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, If the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it.

This proves nothing, it seems like they just passed on a rumour

My favourite is from Elder Hyde, "it is said" that's the definition of a rumour, and he even knew Joseph Smith and he even said it's dubious

[Sevenbak]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

...If they all are rooted in White Horse, then that puts them all in that bucket, for example.

If White Horse is rooted in them...

There, fixed it for ya.

The WHP spouts a lot more than just the constitution hanging by as thread.  That isn't the part that has been rejected.  The constitution hanging by a thread was preached about both before and after the WHP came to surface.  Be careful not to confuse the 2...

[Sevenbak]

21 minutes ago, Duncan said:

This proves nothing, it seems like they just passed on a rumour

My favourite is from Elder Hyde, "it is said" that's the definition of a rumour, and he even knew Joseph Smith and he even said it's dubious

Elder Hyde, from the Ensign article linked above, does not say it's a rumor, he say's that's how he recollected it.  You'll have to show me where Hyde said the statement was dubious, because I can't find any such reference.  Or is that your idea?

"Orson Hyde recalled that the Prophet predicted that “the time would come that the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow and said he, if the constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. I believe this is about the language as nearly as I can recollect it.”

Edited April 7, 2021 by Sevenbak

[ttribe]

6 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

If White Horse is rooted in them...

There, fixed it for ya.

The WHP spouts a lot more than just the constitution hanging by as thread.  That isn't the part that has been rejected.  The constitution hanging by a thread was preached about both before and after the WHP came to surface.  Be careful not to confuse the 2...

[shrug] Okay.  My question was one of curiosity, not the pursuit of some deep knowledge.

[Sevenbak]

3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

[shrug] Okay.  My question was one of curiosity, not the pursuit of some deep knowledge.

Not trying to delve into mysteries.  Just trying to answer your question.  It would seem the question is best answered with another... which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Or in this case, WHP or Constitution/thread...

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do you mean you hate seeing it with your own name, or you hate seeing it wherever it might occur? 

Well, with mine, Jesus, and most.  There may be exceptions where it might look better.

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Not trying to delve into mysteries.  Just trying to answer your question.  It would seem the question is best answered with another... which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Or in this case, WHP or Constitution/thread...

Yep, I'm seeing that.

[longview]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

One, your latest post is filled with false equivalencies; it's impossible to begin unraveling your mess without investing a lot of time I don't have.

Two, none of these events involve a nationwide conspiracy which required bypassing multiple disparate control systems across numerous jurisdictions, almost simultaneously.

Three, your characterizations of the EPA and Bundy situations are decidedly biased and actually undermine the credibility of your argument, rather than add to its strength.

Four, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the concept of "Illusory Pattern Recognition."  The posts I've seen come from you on several issues indicate you are falling prey to this cognitive roadblock.

One:  you challenged me on how could such a massive operation proceed without it being exposed.  I gave you very applicable examples (NOT false equivalencies) involving the SAME kinds of people.  They do not have to march in lockstep or coordinate together perfectly.  This culture is massive and very corrupt.  They love collectivism (very gung ho on social justice).  Many of them think like communists ("the end justifies the means").  They include numerous radical college professors, shameless journalists, deep state bureaucrats, and so on.  Many aspects of the COMPLEX have been exposed to some degree but too many people have been worn out to point of thinking it is par for the course and become apathetic.

Two:  There does NOT have to be a central control for A conspiracy.  It can be a hodge-podge of advocates and gaggles of extremists of all kinds.  They instinctively know to support other radicals in order to advance their own agendas.  This is the source of their power and persistence.

Three:  NO.  They are very applicable and show the same pattern of undercutting the rights of individuals and groups.

Four:  Your denial is DEEPLY saddening.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, halconero said:

I have pondered about the relevance of President Oaks’ talk to non-US members, and have come to think it applies very significantly in the lives of those living in flawed-democracies or dictatorships.

My parents lived in Myanmar (Burma) for four years before moving back home last spring due to COVID-19. There were no language branches there, and they attended with the native-Myanmarese members, including the branch president highlighted in the October 2020 conference who learned from the picture Book of Mormon.

That branch president was woken up a few nights ago by the military, and forced out of his home at gun point to go clean the streets after a demonstration. A young sister, just returned from a mission in Thailand, went from wearing a name tag to wearing a bandana, broke democracy t-shirts, and organizing street marches against the junta. She is currently in hiding, and my mom has been messaging her encouraging words, messages of love, and even Ezra Taft Benson quotes about freedom over Facebook.

Lest we wring our hands too much over what non-US members think, I believe messages like these do resonate with them.

When I wrote what I did it was just a feeling I had from my very limited knowledge of the situation.  It's cool to have you share this so I can see my feelings had some truth to them.  

By the way, we have had just a few refugee families arrive here in Phoenix.  If you would ever like some help connecting them for some reason with the people your parents know just ask and I will do my best.

1 hour ago, halconero said:

It certainly has with the members in Myanmar. I wouldn’t be surprised to find accounts about it resonating with members behind the Iron Curtain. President Oaks’ did a good job of elucidating the principles that underlie the US constitution, principles that can be applied in parliamentary democracies, presidential democracies, or other forms of government that respect participatory government and individual liberties.

Edit: I also just recalled a story from my dad while on a walk once. He is Chilean, and came as a refugee to Canada in the 1970s.

He had never done a deep study of D&C, and when he finally did, I remember him sharing how much he loved D&C 134 and its description on government. As someone who fled dictatorship, he felt that section’s principles very keenly, and it meant a lot to him that the Church, and by extension, God, had canonized their statements on participatory government, civil liberties, and the rule of law.

 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I've been in and out of Burma the past few decades, working with groups on the border. Many of them are also in hiding some have been thrown in prison. Although I agree with you that Oaks' talk will be comfort to the members of the Church in Myanmar, what is really critical at this point is that leaders in Congress condemn the military for not respecting the results of the election.

Inexplicably 14 members of the House voted against such measures. Presumably to make some political point about election fraud, thinking a vote to condemn the Myanmar military might somehow invalidate their claims of election fraud in the US.

14 House Republicans vote against a measure condemning military coup in Myanmar

I don't think those 14 give a rip about the Constitution. 

The same goes for you that I just told Halcenero.  Let me know if I can help connect people.  No promises obviously, but if I can...

[Sevenbak]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Yep, I'm seeing that.

Edwin Rushton recorded the WHP about 1900.  
The other references to the specific part about the constitution are too numerous and too early to be even lumped into the same category with his version and all the extraneous stuff that is in dispute.  The chicken clearly came first and Rushton has egg on his face.   :-)

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Edwin Rushton recorded the WHP about 1900.  
The other references to the specific part about the constitution are too numerous and too early to be even lumped into the same category with his version and all the extraneous stuff that is in dispute.  The chicken clearly came first and Rushton has egg on his face.   🙂

phrases like "It is said", so not a primary hearing, "This may be so; but I do not recollect that he said exactly so", he doesn't know but is essentially trying to fill in what someone other than him said

"I believe he said something like this", not an exact quotation from someone not Joseph Smith

"I believe this is about the language, as nearly as I can recollect it", he's guessing to remember what someone said

He doesn't know what was said but is straining to get it right but can't say for certain. It's weird too that he didn't corroborate with Joseph Smith when he was alive. This is like my BYU roommate's, from 15 years ago, father's mission companion heard an Apostle say but I can't say for certain

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, longview said:

One:  you challenged me on how could such a massive operation proceed without it being exposed.  I gave you very applicable examples (NOT false equivalencies) involving the SAME kinds of people.  They do not have to march in lockstep or coordinate together perfectly.  This culture is massive and very corrupt.  They love collectivism (very gung ho on social justice).  Many of them think like communists ("the end justifies the means").  They include numerous radical college professors, shameless journalists, deep state bureaucrats, and so on.  Many aspects of the COMPLEX have been exposed to some degree but too many people have been worn out to point of thinking it is par for the course and become apathetic.

Two:  There does NOT have to be a central control for A conspiracy.  It can be a hodge-podge of advocates and gaggles of extremists of all kinds.  They instinctively know to support other radicals in order to advance their own agendas.  This is the source of their power and persistence.

Three:  NO.  They are very applicable and show the same pattern of undercutting the rights of individuals and groups.

Four:  Your denial is DEEPLY saddening.

One: No, you gave bad examples.

Two: So a bunch of Republicans and Democrats across the nation with no contact with each other all spontaneously decided to throw the election? To quote Miracle Max: “Your first story was better.”

Three: Nope.

Four: That DEEPLY sadness is not enough of a punishment but I will take what I can get.

[MustardSeed]

I’d like to request, but will not insist, that we drop the back and forth that threatens to shut down the topic, which happens to be my favorite talk of conference- of course, almost a tie with Elder Holland’s comments on Love Safety and Peace being rights and unrighteousness dominion having no place in priesthood hearts. 

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’d like to request, but will not insist, that we drop the back and forth that threatens to shut down the topic, which happens to be my favorite talk of conference- of course, almost a tie with Elder Holland’s comments on Love Safety and Peace being rights and unrighteousness dominion having no place in priesthood hearts. 

He started it.

[Nemesis]

Don’t start another thread.  I’ll lock it and ban the op. 
 

Nemesis