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On 3/20/2021 at 1:02 PM, theplains said:

When God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, do you believe they looked at each
other or looked at God and thought, "Huh?  What does that mean?"  or  "How do we do that?"

And what of the animals which received the same command?

@theplains in case you didn't see my reply to this, see: Posted Saturday at 01:22 PM

Do you believe Adam and Eve were willingly disobeying the Father and practicing illicit birth control before the Fall?

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On 3/20/2021 at 10:02 AM, theplains said:

When God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, do you believe they looked at each
other or looked at God and thought, "Huh?  What does that mean?"  or  "How do we do that?"

Yeah, something like that.  Probably thought he meant to gather lots of fruit and do math.

On 3/20/2021 at 10:02 AM, theplains said:

And what of the animals which received the same command?

I don't know.  The animals could have had a veil placed over their memories just like Adam and Eve had so that they couldn't remember how babies were made, either.  And the animals probably had even less of an idea about what it meant to multiply.

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3 hours ago, theplains said:

Does that mean you believe there was no real garden and that God did not make any trees that were
pleasant to the sight of Adam and Eve?

As Anglican Bishop Tom Wright pointed out, the Garden of Eden is a temple built by God in which "a temple story" takes place.  All temples are real places in which holy ordinances take place, just as every church bldg and cathedral is an actual place in which holy ordinances are performed.  The ordinances are symbolic and liturgical, but have real meaning.

As to the creation of all manner of trees and other plants, Jim, most Christian attribute their creation to God, and most people find them pleasant to the sight of humankind.  Opinions differ on how they were created, of course, and some people insist that they evolved, but most people find them pleasant to the sight.

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55 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As to the creation of all manner of trees and other plants, Jim, most Christian attribute their creation to God, and most people find them pleasant to the sight of humankind.  Opinions differ on how they were created, of course, and some people insist that they evolved, but most people find them pleasant to the sight.

Behold, I offer you the pleasant-to-the-sight naked mole rat!

18EFE41A-3592-40DF-A4AACD086FF806EE_sour

(it shakes one's faith in the Genesis story, so let's keep our focus on the pleasant plants and trees instead)

Edited by MiserereNobis
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7 hours ago, theplains said:

What choices between good and evil  (agency) do you believe you made in this pre-mortal
celestial home while you were progressing for a long time (as you say)?

Whether to push my younger sibling into that supernova for a laugh or to be good and not do it. Sorry about that by the way.

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3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Behold, I offer you the pleasant-to-the-sight naked mole rat!

18EFE41A-3592-40DF-A4AACD086FF806EE_sour

(it shakes one's faith in the Genesis story, so let's keep our focus on the pleasant plants and trees instead)

Oh goodness Jesse.

That is a rare image. What above ground animal is so repulsive in appearance? 

Answer: None.

The animal is beautifully efficient. My faith remains..

But...is ugly in the eye of the beholder? I think not. What about beauty? I think not.

I have not known how to prove it. 

What makes that thing so ugly to us, even though there are no apparent defects? Who could see beauty? It could be disturbing.

I wax serious...the soul stained by sin. I have read that it stinks to God and the Saints. It probably appears uglier than that mole...and our Saviour loved the potential beauty that could be transformed out of the ugly. And in that hope...

 

Edited by 3DOP
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On 3/20/2021 at 9:58 AM, theplains said:

Do you see a difference in what God allows to happen versus what God wants/desires to
happen?

The mere fact that we sin should answer that question. 

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16 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Behold, I offer you the pleasant-to-the-sight naked mole rat!

18EFE41A-3592-40DF-A4AACD086FF806EE_sour

(it shakes one's faith in the Genesis story, so let's keep our focus on the pleasant plants and trees instead)

Poor guy just needs some dental implants. He kinda looks like my uncle.

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13 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Oh goodness Jesse.

That is a rare image. What above ground animal is so repulsive in appearance? 

Answer: None.

The animal is beautifully efficient. My faith remains..

But...is ugly in the eye of the beholder? I think not. What about beauty? I think not.

I have not known how to prove it. 

What makes that thing so ugly to us, even though there are no apparent defects? Who could see beauty? It could be disturbing.

I wax serious...the soul stained by sin. I have read that it stinks to God and the Saints. It probably appears uglier than that mole...and our Saviour loved the potential beauty that could be transformed out of the ugly. And in that hope...

 

What, you don't like pink?  Maybe if he was smiling instead of just standing there with his mouth wide open he would look better to you. Have you ever seen a chicken without feathers?  Or a cat with no hair? I think we all have our own likes and dislikes.

 

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19 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Oh goodness Jesse.

That is a rare image. What above ground animal is so repulsive in appearance? 

Answer: None.

The animal is beautifully efficient. My faith remains..

But...is ugly in the eye of the beholder? I think not. What about beauty? I think not.

I have not known how to prove it. 

What makes that thing so ugly to us, even though there are no apparent defects? Who could see beauty? It could be disturbing.

I wax serious...the soul stained by sin. I have read that it stinks to God and the Saints. It probably appears uglier than that mole...and our Saviour loved the potential beauty that could be transformed out of the ugly. And in that hope...

 

I honestly would like to ask a question about a soul with sin "stinking".

I can see that as a metaphor desciving how disgusted God is/can be over sin.  

But the more general question is whether or not God also has "human" senses- can He "see" as we do?   I am sure he can "see" in another sense EVERYTHING, but I guess my question is about the metaphor itself.

Our belief is that God's "intelligence" penetrates all that is knowable- (my interpretation) while he is embodied and physically actually in one "place" and that is the sense in which he is Omniscient.

Yet with a disembodied God there is a sense in which He "is" everywhere at once.

I know it is a mystery that we cannot understand but I am just wondering if there is more info about HOW God CAN know everything- the mechanism if such a thing has been theorized.

For us- and this is my imaginary analogy - not Doctrine- through what we call the "light of Christ" his MIND/ INTELLEGENCE penetrates everything.   I hate to use such a plain analogy but I imagine it as somewhat like "the force" in the Star Wars movies- or what we call "ESP".

I know it is a mystery -( anyone who claims to kmow I would think is wrong anyway ;) )and we can leave it at that, but I guess I was just wondering how you envisioned it after that comment of sin "stinking". 

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Quote

The (Hardness) scale ranks from 1 (softest, such as Talc) to 10 (hardest, such as Diamonds). Rat teeth rank about 5.5 on the Mohs Scale, harder than iron or copper. ... Because their teeth are so hard, rats are able to chew through most of the materials people use to keep them out, such as: Plastic.Jan 22, 2014

- Google

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30 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Damn rats!

I know.  I have found that those electric sonic things actually work very well- you gotta buy serveral of the little ones and plug them into each room in which you have problems.

And if the DO get in, Warfarin and peanut butter mixed together.   POOF!   

Haven't had problems for years

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22 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I honestly would like to ask a question about a soul with sin "stinking".

I can see that as a metaphor desciving how disgusted God is/can be over sin.  

But the more general question is whether or not God also has "human" senses- can He "see" as we do?   I am sure he can "see" in another sense EVERYTHING, but I guess my question is about the metaphor itself.

Our belief is that God's "intelligence" penetrates all that is knowable- (my interpretation) while he is embodied and physically actually in one "place" and that is the sense in which he is Omniscient.

Yet with a disembodied God there is a sense in which He "is" everywhere at once.

I know it is a mystery that we cannot understand but I am just wondering if there is more info about HOW God CAN know everything- the mechanism if such a thing has been theorized.

For us- and this is my imaginary analogy - not Doctrine- through what we call the "light of Christ" his MIND/ INTELLEGENCE penetrates everything.   I hate to use such a plain analogy but I imagine it as somewhat like "the force" in the Star Wars movies- or what we call "ESP".

I know it is a mystery -( anyone who claims to kmow I would think is wrong anyway ;) )and we can leave it at that, but I guess I was just wondering how you envisioned it after that comment of sin "stinking". 

Mark, I can't remember right now where exactly I got that idea. Jesse, can you possibly corroborate?

I was certain I had read that certain saints could detect an unpleasant odor. But then we are left with a difficulty. Hopefully these "privileged" souls could distinguish between S.O. (soul odor) and B.O.? 

I'll ask around the shop when I get back to work next week.

Some of the saints are said to have been able to "read souls". Padre Pio and the Cure of Ars, especially in the confessional. So we can detect deformation of the body by the senses. It would certainly be extraordinary to detect deformation of the soul in the same way.

I'll have to get back to you, Mark.

Rory

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On 3/24/2021 at 1:21 PM, theplains said:

God's desired will was never for Adam and Eve to disobey him.  That's why he told them not
to eat from the forbidden tree. But with the Fall, God's desired will was for mankind to be redeemed
through the Atonement.  The Fall caused the need for an Atonement.   

The fall caused the need for an Atonement, so why was Jesus foreordained to be our Savior,  as the "Lamb slain", before the foundation of the world? (Rev 13:8, 1 Peter 1:19-20, 2 Tim 1:9).  Was the Atonement "Plan B", or was it THE PLAN from the beginning as the Bible teaches?

This has been asked of you several times in this folder already by a few people (including me).  Why would God plan to have Jesus be our Savior before Adam fell?

Edited by InCognitus
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6 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The fall caused the need for an Atonement, so why was Jesus foreordained to be our Savior,  as the "Lamb slain", before the foundation of the world? (Rev 13:8, 1 Peter 1:19-20, 2 Tim 1:9).  Was the Atonement "Plan B", or was it THE PLAN from the beginning as the Bible teaches?

This has been asked of you several times in this folder already by a few people (including me).  Why would God plan to have Jesus be our Savior before Adam fell?

Although they’re hesitant to admit it to Latter-Day Saints, because it makes their God appear capricious and cruel in the extreme, if people who think like Jim are being honest they’ll answer your question by saying God is God, and therefore he can make up the rules and do whatever he wants to do, therefore we don’t have the right ask him why he created Adam and Eve even though he knew they would fall if he did, You see, fallen mortals don’t have the right to question the mysteries of God’s “sovereign will.” There’s no need for them to trouble themselves with such unanswerable questions, even though they might admit what God does often does appears to defy simple logic.

i remember a time when an Evangelical was asked the same question and his smiling response was, “ the sovereignty of God, baby!” In other words, people who think like this are perfectly comfortable with the idea of a God who could intentionally create an unmitigated disaster of a world because “his ways are not our ways.” And why not? After all they’re perfectly comfortable with the idea of a God of “perfect love” who is, nevertheless, going to send the majority of the human race, whom he created in his own image, into an everlasting hell of unimaginable suffering, anguish and exquisite torment. And he will do this even if those who are going to suffer in this manner only lived on earth as fallen mortals for an average, of 50 or 60 years (50-60 years of life on earth = suffering the most extreme agony FOREVER, without any hope of relief.

So as you can see, to people who have adopted this way of thinking God is being perfectly consistent. And because they’re so delighted to know they’re fortunate enough to be numbered among the blessed who are only going to experience the perfectly loving and compassionate side of God’s nature, they breathe a deep sigh of relief and chalk up the multiple billions who are destined to suffer everlasting torture and torment as a mystery that is best put out of mind and left alone.

Bottom line? There’s no possibility of a meeting of the minds on the subject of the fall of Adam and Eve between the Latter-Day Saints and Evangelicals. Never the twain shall meet.

Edited by teddyaware
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18 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Mark, I can't remember right now where exactly I got that idea. Jesse, can you possibly corroborate?

I was certain I had read that certain saints could detect an unpleasant odor. But then we are left with a difficulty. Hopefully these "privileged" souls could distinguish between S.O. (soul odor) and B.O.? 

I'll ask around the shop when I get back to work next week.

Some of the saints are said to have been able to "read souls". Padre Pio and the Cure of Ars, especially in the confessional. So we can detect deformation of the body by the senses. It would certainly be extraordinary to detect deformation of the soul in the same way.

I'll have to get back to you, Mark.

Rory

It's ok, no biggie!  It's just a good analogy for God's abhorrence for sin. A figure of speech! ;)

 I am not sure why I brought it up in the 1st place!

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21 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Mark, I can't remember right now where exactly I got that idea. Jesse, can you possibly corroborate?

Sorry, I'm drawing a blank. It's a good metaphor/analogy, though!

Edited by MiserereNobis
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On 3/27/2021 at 1:37 AM, InCognitus said:

The fall caused the need for an Atonement, so why was Jesus foreordained to be our Savior,  as the "Lamb slain", before the foundation of the world? (Rev 13:8, 1 Peter 1:19-20, 2 Tim 1:9).  Was the Atonement "Plan B", or was it THE PLAN from the beginning as the Bible teaches?

This has been asked of you several times in this folder already by a few people (including me).  Why would God plan to have Jesus be our Savior before Adam fell?

God knew Adam would fall.  It's a question of what you believe about cause and effect.

Depending on what one believes, either the Fall (which God knew would happen) caused
the need for the Atonement or God first planned the Atonement and then wanted Adam
and Eve to disobey him so his plan would not be frustrated.

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On 3/22/2021 at 2:58 PM, Ahab said:

That would depend on which definition of god we chose to use, I think.   You and I were 2 of those people.  Does being the same kind of being as our Father in heaven suffice as a good definition of god to you?

But if you were already a god at this premortal council, then why would you need to become
a god again in D&C 132:20?

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On 3/24/2021 at 4:40 PM, JLHPROF said:

The atonement and the fall are all part of the plan. 

Which is the cause and which is the effect?

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On 3/24/2021 at 5:57 PM, CV75 said:

@theplains in case you didn't see my reply to this, see: Posted Saturday at 01:22 PM

Do you believe Adam and Eve were willingly disobeying the Father and practicing illicit birth control before the Fall?

Sorry , I might have missed it.

I have no record if Adam and Eve were attempting to procreate while in the Garden before
the Fall.  Also, there is no indication that God's command to be fruitful and multiply had a
time limit so we cannot say they were practicing birth control.  Remember, the same command
was given to the animals. 

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On 3/24/2021 at 6:04 PM, Ahab said:

And the animals probably had even less of an idea about what it meant to multiply.

Why do you believe Adam and Eve did not ask God what it meant to be fruitful and multiply or
what death meant when they were told not to eat from the forbidden tree?

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On 3/25/2021 at 5:28 AM, mfbukowski said:

The mere fact that we sin should answer that question. 

Does that mean you believe God wants us to sin so that he could be glorified?

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9 minutes ago, theplains said:

Which is the cause and which is the effect?

The infinite and eternal atonement of Christ is the very foundation of creation because without it nothing could exist.

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