Jamie Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 On 5/29/2021 at 8:19 AM, theplains said: But would you say God wanted and needed Adam and Eve to fall? No. I think God just did not want Adam and Eve to gain knowledge of evil, or to know about evil things. But the fruit from that tree was a package deal. No good parent would want or much less advise their children to gain knowledge of evil things.
JLHPROF Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Jamie said: No. I think God just did not want Adam and Eve to gain knowledge of evil, or to know about evil things. But the fruit from that tree was a package deal. No good parent would want or much less advise their children to gain knowledge of evil things. I disagree with this. And so did Joseph Smith. (See my signature).
Jamie Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 48 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I disagree with this. And so did Joseph Smith. (See my signature). Do you really disagree with what I said? And do you really think Joseph Smith disagreed or would disagree with what I said and meant too? Have you or would you ever advise your own naive children to gain knowledge of evil, as much evil as they could possibly know? Most parents I know and have known want their children to know about only the good that they can know to make their lives as good as they can possibly be. Knowledge of evil is at best only knowledge of what to avoid.
ksfisher Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Jamie said: I think God just did not want Adam and Eve to gain knowledge of evil, or to know about evil things. If they didn't know what evil was how would they know how to choose good? "...they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no bjoy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no csin." 2 Nephi 2:23 2
ksfisher Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Jamie said: the fruit from that tree was a package deal. You're correct here. This is what Lehi is teaching in 2 Nephi 2.
JLHPROF Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 22 minutes ago, Jamie said: Do you really disagree with what I said? And do you really think Joseph Smith disagreed or would disagree with what I said and meant too? Have you or would you ever advise your own naive children to gain knowledge of evil, as much evil as they could possibly know? Most parents I know and have known want their children to know about only the good that they can know to make their lives as good as they can possibly be. Knowledge of evil is at best only knowledge of what to avoid. Yes I do. I believe a comprehension of evil is necessary in order to choose good. Ksfisher provided scriptural back up. As Joseph taught " if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss". That includes leading your children. And yes, taking for example pornography, pure evil. I don't think children need to be exposed to pornography. But they do need to be aware of what it is, why it is evil, and how to not become ensnared. Hard to do if they don't know it exists until someone exposes them to it. The idea of keeping knowledge from people to protect them is wrong. It's led to many leaving the Church when they've taken that approach (thankfully not so much anymore). Knowledge of good and evil is what makes men into Gods. Scripture is clear on that too. I want my children to be exalted. Don't you? 1
Jamie Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 (edited) 41 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Yes I do. I believe a comprehension of evil is necessary in order to choose good. Ksfisher provided scriptural back up. As Joseph taught " if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss". That includes leading your children. And yes, taking for example pornography, pure evil. I don't think children need to be exposed to pornography. But they do need to be aware of what it is, why it is evil, and how to not become ensnared. Hard to do if they don't know it exists until someone exposes them to it. The idea of keeping knowledge from people to protect them is wrong. It's led to many leaving the Church when they've taken that approach (thankfully not so much anymore). Knowledge of good and evil is what makes men into Gods. Scripture is clear on that too. I want my children to be exalted. Don't you? The trouble, as I see it, is that there are so many perversions of what is good, corrupted forms of good which are no longer good because they are such abominable corruptions of good things, that if one were to devote much time to talking about all of that evil stuff then there would be so much that is talked about that is not worth the time it takes to hear it and that much less time spent talking about all of the good forms of good things that I would rather hear, and have my children hear too. I'm reminded of the analogy I have heard about teaching people how to spot counterfeit currency, which is by teaching them what a good bill looks like and what it has that makes it a good bill. I already know evil is everything that is opposite to what is good, so I prefer to just teach all about the good stuff while just mentioning in passing that everything that is opposite to what is good is evil. Edited June 1, 2021 by Jamie
JLHPROF Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 23 minutes ago, Jamie said: The trouble, as I see it, is that there are so many perversions of what is good, corrupted forms of good which are no longer good because they are such abominable corruptions of good things, that if one were to devote much time to talking about all of that evil stuff then there would be so much that is talked about that is not worth the time it takes to hear it and that much less time spent talking about all of the good forms of good things that I would rather hear, and have my children hear too. I'm reminded of the analogy I have heard about teaching people how to spot counterfeit currency, which is by teaching them what a good bill looks like and what it has that makes it a good bill. I already know evil is everything that is opposite to what is good, so I prefer to just teach all about the good stuff while just mentioning in passing that everything that is opposite to what is good is evil. I understand what you are saying. And it makes sense in the "avoid even the appearance of evil" perspective. But at the same time there are too many higher principles of the gospel that teach us the necessity of learning about evil during our progression toward the Celestial Kingdom. I think knowledge of evil is vital, experience with evil less so.
Jamie Posted June 1, 2021 Posted June 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I understand what you are saying. And it makes sense in the "avoid even the appearance of evil" perspective. But at the same time there are too many higher principles of the gospel that teach us the necessity of learning about evil during our progression toward the Celestial Kingdom. I think knowledge of evil is vital, experience with evil less so. Okay, but I still think all we need to know about evil is that it is some kind of perversion or corrupt abominable form of something that is good, and by knowing all about the good stuff I can just spot when something is not good by knowing it is not good.
theplains Posted June 14, 2021 Author Posted June 14, 2021 On 5/29/2021 at 1:39 PM, InCognitus said: The Bible clearly says that God planned the atonement "before the foundation of the world". Which do you believe God planned first - the Fall or the Atonement?
theplains Posted June 14, 2021 Author Posted June 14, 2021 On 5/29/2021 at 11:49 AM, JLHPROF said: You cannot get from creation to resurrection without the atonement. It's not cause and effect. It's natural development. Did the Fall lead to the development for the Atonement or did the Atonement lead to the development of the Fall?
theplains Posted June 14, 2021 Author Posted June 14, 2021 On 5/29/2021 at 11:44 AM, JLHPROF said: I would. Since you believe God wanted and needed them to fall, why do you believe God told them not to eat from the forbidden tree?
InCognitus Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 1 hour ago, theplains said: Which do you believe God planned first - the Fall or the Atonement? God's plan is one plan, and it was one plan from the beginning. All things are before him. Jesus was to shed his "precious blood" as a lamb without blemish and without spot, and was foreordained "before the foundation of the world" (according to 1 Peter 1:19-20). Do you believe that verse, or not?
The Nehor Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 On 6/1/2021 at 6:00 PM, Jamie said: Okay, but I still think all we need to know about evil is that it is some kind of perversion or corrupt abominable form of something that is good, and by knowing all about the good stuff I can just spot when something is not good by knowing it is not good. I'm a little fuzzy on the whole "good/bad" thing here. What do you mean, "bad"? Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light. That's bad. Okay. All right, important safety tip. 1
The Nehor Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 1 hour ago, theplains said: Since you believe God wanted and needed them to fall, why do you believe God told them not to eat from the forbidden tree? Because they didn't have to take this horrific step. The Plan normally doesn't require a Fall but the Father, the Son, Michael, and Eve conceived of a bold new plan and it had to be entered willingly to save the souls of the lost. They didn't have to go this way but only an act of disobedience would allow it.
JLHPROF Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 1 hour ago, theplains said: Did the Fall lead to the development for the Atonement or did the Atonement lead to the development of the Fall? Both/neither. They aren't cause and effect. They were both always going to happen, just as they happened on other Earths. 1 hour ago, theplains said: Since you believe God wanted and needed them to fall, why do you believe God told them not to eat from the forbidden tree? He didn't really. He warned them of the consequences if they did. He gave them a commandment they couldn't obey without eating. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Because they didn't have to take this horrific step. The Plan normally doesn't require a Fall but the Father, the Son, Michael, and Eve conceived of a bold new plan and it had to be entered willingly to save the souls of the lost. They didn't have to go this way but only an act of disobedience would allow it. I disagree. 1
The Nehor Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: I disagree. I disagree with your disagreement. 1
theplains Posted June 29, 2021 Author Posted June 29, 2021 On 6/14/2021 at 8:52 PM, JLHPROF said: He gave them a commandment they couldn't obey without eating. What gave you the idea that they lacked procreative powers before they ate from the forbidden tree?
theplains Posted June 29, 2021 Author Posted June 29, 2021 On 6/14/2021 at 8:36 PM, InCognitus said: Jesus was to shed his "precious blood" as a lamb without blemish and without spot, and was foreordained "before the foundation of the world" (according to 1 Peter 1:19-20). Do you believe that verse, or not? Yes. But I wonder what you believe God planned first, the Fall or the Atonement?
mfbukowski Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, theplains said: Yes. But I wonder what you believe God planned first, the Fall or the Atonement? "Planned first "? There is no time for God, nothing is unexpected. It was all part of the plan from the beginning. To think otherwise contradicts His omniscience Edited June 30, 2021 by mfbukowski 3
JLHPROF Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: "Planned first "? There is no time for God, nothing is unexpected. It was all part of the plan from the beginning. To think otherwise contradicts His omniscience This has nothing to do with the false concept we call omniscience. It was part of the plan because it's how things are always done on every earth. And sure, God knew that. Based on experience, not some mystical omniscience.
InCognitus Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 13 hours ago, theplains said: Yes. But I wonder what you believe God planned first, the Fall or the Atonement? Since you believe that Jesus was to shed his "precious blood" as a lamb without blemish and without spot, and was foreordained "before the foundation of the world" (according to 1 Peter 1:19-20). what do you think is the proper answer to your question? You've asked this same question over and over and over, and I've given you my answer over and over and over and over and over and over gain. 2
mfbukowski Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 12 hours ago, JLHPROF said: This has nothing to do with the false concept we call omniscience. It was part of the plan because it's how things are always done on every earth. And sure, God knew that. Based on experience, not some mystical omniscience. Oh come on. This is a quibble about wording- you yoursef say above, effectively that God knows what is always done on every earth. Yes he knows everything there is to know. If you don't like the O word when speaking to an Evangelical, so he understands you, tht is your decision.
mfbukowski Posted June 30, 2021 Posted June 30, 2021 7 hours ago, InCognitus said: Since you believe that Jesus was to shed his "precious blood" as a lamb without blemish and without spot, and was foreordained "before the foundation of the world" (according to 1 Peter 1:19-20). what do you think is the proper answer to your question? You've asked this same question over and over and over, and I've given you my answer over and over and over and over and over and over gain. Wow 🤯 1
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