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On 3/27/2021 at 7:48 AM, teddyaware said:

Bottom line? There’s no possibility of a meeting of the minds on the subject of the fall of Adam and Eve between the Latter-Day Saints and Evangelicals. Never the twain shall meet.

From what I see from LDS literature, the Fall was really a fall upwards and then great blessings
resulted from the Fall.  In essence, God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey him so that his plan
would not be frustrated.  Satan, despite his plans to hurt God's plan, turned out to be the
inadvertent hero and should actually be commended for helping God.  According to the Pearl of
Great Price, Adam actually blesses God for his transgression and Eve  praises both herself and
Adam for their transgression.

I never hear any more of this kind of praise towards God or self-congratulations for any other
disobedience mentioned in the Mormon scriptures.

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26 minutes ago, theplains said:

Does that mean you believe God wants us to sin so that he could be glorified?

Of course not. We have the freedom to sin, but God does not want us to do so, but it's up to us!

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19 minutes ago, theplains said:

From what I see from LDS literature, the Fall was really a fall upwards and then great blessings
resulted from the Fall.  In essence, God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey him so that his plan
would not be frustrated.  Satan, despite his plans to hurt God's plan, turned out to be the
inadvertent hero and should actually be commended for helping God.  According to the Pearl of
Great Price, Adam actually blesses God for his transgression and Eve  praises both herself and
Adam for their transgression.

I never hear any more of this kind of praise towards God or self-congratulations for any other
disobedience mentioned in the Mormon scriptures.

 It's not congratulations for a sin it is congratulations for finding that they are free to make their own decisions.

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3 hours ago, theplains said:

Does that mean you believe God wants us to sin so that he could be glorified?

Let’s put it this way: If God didn’t want to be placed in the position where he knew he would inevitably be mightily praised and glorified for wisely providing the means for his creation to triumph over the destructive effects of sin, and setting in place that provision (the atonement of Christ) long before the creation of the world, why did he go ahead and create the world while in the sure knowledge that Adam and Eve would fall and need to be saved?

God created this world even while knowing it was going to fall, so there are basically three choices on the matter set before us:

1) In spite of the fact that God is perfect, he somehow made a mistake or didn’t fully understand the implications of what he was doing when he created a world that he knew was going to fall through disobedience.

2) He had no choice but to create the world, while being fully aware it was going to inevitably fall, because once his mind conceives an idea he has no choice but to follow through with it.

3) For a wise and glorious purpose God created the world, even though he knew it was going to fall, because he knew something infinitely worthwhile and glorious would come out of it.

Edited by teddyaware
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1 hour ago, theplains said:

From what I see from LDS literature, the Fall was really a fall upwards and then great blessings
resulted from the Fall.  In essence, God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey him so that his plan
would not be frustrated.  Satan, despite his plans to hurt God's plan, turned out to be the
inadvertent hero and should actually be commended for helping God.  According to the Pearl of
Great Price, Adam actually blesses God for his transgression and Eve  praises both herself and
Adam for their transgression.

I never hear any more of this kind of praise towards God or self-congratulations for any other
disobedience mentioned in the Mormon scriptures.

You are mistaken. The Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear that the fall was a step off cliff of infinite depth into the abyss of hell where all would inevitably and unavoidably become devils. It’s a mistaken notion to imagine that the fall was anything but a descent into the misery, sorrow and total spiritual alienation of hell. Please carefully read the following to realize I speak the truth

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.
10 O how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster; yea, that monster, death and hell. (2 Nephi 9)

Edited by teddyaware
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4 hours ago, theplains said:

God knew Adam would fall.  It's a question of what you believe about cause and effect.

Depending on what one believes, either the Fall (which God knew would happen) caused
the need for the Atonement or God first planned the Atonement and then wanted Adam
and Eve to disobey him
so his plan would not be frustrated.

I see how you try to make this seem like their disobedience is something that God "wanted" to happen in LDS belief.  So let's think about this carefully.....

Did God "want" Adam and Eve to sin, or did he simply use his foreknowledge that they would sin to further his plan to have Jesus be the Savior?  What is the cause and the effect?

Think of it another way.  Did God "want" evil men to disobey him and crucify Jesus on the cross?  How could Jesus die for our sins unless he was crucified?  Obviously the atonement was part of God's plan, right?  God didn't "want" them to do that, but he certainly used his foreknowledge of their actions to further his plan.

The fall and the atonement are two pivotal events in the history of creation, and they were both part of God's plan from the beginning.  If the fall wasn't part of God's plan from the beginning, then he certainly went out of his way to make it easy to happen, by putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil right in the middle of the garden and sending Satan to earth to temp Adam and Eve.  

Edited by InCognitus
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4 hours ago, theplains said:

God knew Adam would fall.  It's a question of what you believe about cause and effect.

Depending on what one believes, either the Fall (which God knew would happen) caused
the need for the Atonement or God first planned the Atonement and then wanted Adam
and Eve to disobey him so his plan would not be frustrated.

Or perhaps God knew that it was impossible for mankind to become resurrected beings dwelling with him without passing through mortality first.

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From the scriptures as I read them, there is always a " plan B "  usually based on the idea that someone will make a choice that is not hoped for , but prepared for. 

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15 hours ago, theplains said:

Sorry , I might have missed it.

I have no record if Adam and Eve were attempting to procreate while in the Garden before
the Fall.  Also, there is no indication that God's command to be fruitful and multiply had a
time limit so we cannot say they were practicing birth control.  Remember, the same command
was given to the animals. 

No, remember the animals were treated differently than Adam and Eve: Posted March 20

 

Edited by CV75
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On 3/31/2021 at 9:53 PM, InCognitus said:

If the fall wasn't part of God's plan from the beginning, then he certainly went out of his way to make it easy to happen, by putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil right in the middle of the garden and sending Satan to earth to temp Adam and Eve.  

Why did God tell Adam and Eve not to eat from the forbidden tree if his plan was for them to disobey?

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On 3/31/2021 at 8:09 PM, teddyaware said:

You are mistaken. The Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear that the fall was a step off cliff of infinite depth into the abyss of hell where all would inevitably and unavoidably become devils. It’s a mistaken notion to imagine that the fall was anything but a descent into the misery, sorrow and total spiritual alienation of hell. Please carefully read the following to realize I speak the truth

What do you think about this teaching?

Assistant to the Twelve Apostles Sterling W. Sill spoke of Adam's fall: "Adam fell, but he fell in
the right direction. He fell toward the goal.... Adam fell, but he fell upward
" (Deseret News,
Church Section, 31 July 1965, p. 7).

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8 minutes ago, theplains said:

What do you think about this teaching?

Assistant to the Twelve Apostles Sterling W. Sill spoke of Adam's fall: "Adam fell, but he fell in
the right direction. He fell toward the goal.... Adam fell, but he fell upward
" (Deseret News,
Church Section, 31 July 1965, p. 7).

True.

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4 hours ago, theplains said:

Why did God tell Adam and Eve not to eat from the forbidden tree if his plan was for them to disobey?

You're doing it again.  God's plan wasn't for Adam and Eve to "disobey" him in bringing about the fall anymore than it was God's plan for men to "disobey" him when they crucified Jesus in bringing about the atonement.  God's foreknowledge of their choices to disobey simply allowed him to further his greater plan of providing an environment where men could be tested and learn by experience (as a result of the fall) and to provide a means of redemption (through the atonement of Jesus Christ) for those who mess up while participating in the test.  The fall of Adam and atonement of Jesus Christ were both important parts of his plan from before creation.

Edited by InCognitus
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8 hours ago, theplains said:

What do you think about this teaching?

Assistant to the Twelve Apostles Sterling W. Sill spoke of Adam's fall: "Adam fell, but he fell in
the right direction. He fell toward the goal.... Adam fell, but he fell upward
" (Deseret News,
Church Section, 31 July 1965, p. 7).

The teaching is technically false, but I understand what Sterling W Sill was trying to say in his own well intentioned but less than accurate way. In reality, the scriptures clearly teach that the consequences of the fall are totally destructive in every imaginable way; there is not a single good thing that comes as a consequence of the fall when looking at it as a final stand alone destiny. But what Christian can deny that the infinite and eternal atonement of Christ conquered that awful monster of endless physical and spiritual death and thereby turned what was the ultimate curse into greatest of all imaginable blessings!

You know, you and I are in exactly the same position. We are both mortal humans who entered this fallen state as a consequence of the transgression of Adam and Eve. But when you get right down to it there are really only two different ways to looking at the situation: Either one can think of the fall as a tragic mistake that for some unfathomable reason God made possible, or it can be thought of as something that God in his infinite wisdom knew was going to happen, but through his infinite wisdom and miraculous redeeming power turned the tables on the powers of endless night by ushering in a new and glorious dawn of endless joy and light.

Edited by teddyaware
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On 4/3/2021 at 6:36 PM, teddyaware said:

The teaching is technically false, but I understand what Sterling W Sill was trying to say in his own well intentioned but less than accurate way. In reality, the scriptures clearly teach that the consequences of the fall are totally destructive in every imaginable way; there is not a single good thing that comes as a consequence of the fall when looking at it as a final stand alone destiny.

I see that Gospel Principles teaches great blessings resulted as a consequence of the Fall.

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7 minutes ago, theplains said:

I see that Gospel Principles teaches great blessings resulted as a consequence of the Fall.

...but only because the Fall was and is negated by the atonement of all of us made possible by Jesus Christ.

Let's take an analytical look at the consequences of the Fall, first without considering the redeeming effects of the atonement, and then next while considering the atonement in full force"

The Fall resulted in:

1) a (greater) knowledge of good and evil than Adam and Eve had before they fell

2) physical death for not only Adam and Eve but all of the children they could have as mortals 

3) actually knowing how to have children, and how to enjoy having them

4) separation from the physical presence of God their Father, who is also our Father in heaven

5) the revealed word of God our Father to tell them how they would be able to overcome their fall through the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Otherwise referred to as the condescension of God.  They had fallen, but the way to get back up was provided.

 

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4 hours ago, theplains said:

I see that Gospel Principles teaches great blessings resulted as a consequence of the Fall.

As you’ve already read in 2 Nephi 9, not a single good thing comes to mankind as a consequence of the fall because it’s nothing but totally destructive to the welfare and happiness of man in every possible way. Without the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and its redeeming transformative power, the fall is nothing more or less than the ultimate imaginable curse of total alienation from God and hopeless spiritual doom.

Yet it’s undeniable to any Bible believing Christian that the Savior of this fallen world overcame and triumphed over all the destructive consequences of the fall and made it possible for man to be brought back into the glorious presence of God, but now with one big advantage: Prior to the fall, Adam and Eve were like naive innocent children with an inadequate level of discernment when it comes to being able to effectively differentiate between good and evil. But thanks to the miraculous power of the atonement of Christ, the seemingly irreversible effects of the fall have been totally neutralized, thus making in possible for Adam and Eve, and their posterity, to regain their lost relationship with God, but now as experienced, wise, spiritually enlightened adults who not only fully comprehend the difference between good and evil, but also as conquering heroes who’ve defeated evil on the battlefield of mortality through the love, mercy and matchless power of God.

With all the above being said, I think members of the restored Church of Christ would be better advised to teach that the fall, standing alone, in and of itself, is something that is only totally negative and destructive in every imaginable way, and that the only reason why anything ultimately positive comes out of it at all is because of the love inspired infinite and eternal suffering of Jesus Christ who negated the curse of the fall and miraculously brought forth perfect divine life and light out of endless death and total darkness. God is a God of miracles whose love and almighty power is more than able to bring forth goodness and a fullness of joy out of the worst possible trials, afflictions and tragedies.

“... and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.” (Moroni 7:28)

The above verse from the Book of Mormon clearly testifies that without Christ men would remain in the fallen state and not even a single good thing could come to them.

“And we know that God works all things (including the fall) together for the good of those who love him...” (Romans 8:28)

 

Edited by teddyaware
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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

As you’ve already read in 2 Nephi 9, not a single good thing comes to mankind as a consequence of the fall because it’s nothing but totally destructive to the welfare and happiness of man in every possible way. Without the infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and its redeeming transformative power, the fall is nothing more or less than the ultimate imaginable curse of total alienation from God and hopeless spiritual doom.

Yet it’s undeniable to any Bible believing Christian that the Savior of this fallen world overcame and triumphed over all the destructive consequences of the fall and made it possible for man to be brought back into the glorious presence of God, but now with one big advantage: Prior to the fall, Adam and Eve were like naive innocent children with an inadequate level of discernment when it comes to being able to effectively differentiate between good and evil. But thanks to the miraculous power of the atonement of Christ, the seemingly irreversible effects of the fall have been totally neutralized, thus making in possible for Adam and Eve, and their posterity, to regain their lost relationship with God, but now as experienced, wise, spiritually enlightened adults who not only fully comprehend the difference between good and evil, but also as conquering heroes who’ve defeated evil on the battlefield of mortality through the love, mercy and matchless power of God.

With all the above being said, I think members of the restored Church of Christ would be better advised to teach that the fall, standing alone, in and of itself, is something that is only totally negative and destructive in every imaginable way, and that the only reason why anything ultimately positive comes out of it at all is because of the love inspired infinite and eternal suffering of Jesus Christ who negated the curse of the fall and miraculously brought forth perfect divine life and light out of endless death and total darkness. God is a God of miracles whose love and almighty power is more than able to bring forth goodness and a fullness of joy out of the worst possible trials, afflictions and tragedies.

“... and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.” (Moroni 7:28)

The above verse from the Book of Mormon clearly testifies that without Christ men would remain in the fallen state and not even a single good thing could come to them.

“And we know that God works all things (including the fall) together for the good of those who love him...” (Romans 8:28)

 

A lot of words for only one sentence but a very good message in that.  These days most people seem to want to use a minimal amount of words and say something short and sweet. But I think that's what they mean when they refer to their Savior.  

He is the one who has already saved and is still saving us from the fall.  And we still call it the fall, rather than an ascending in glory.  It was not a good move but at least Adam and Eve and us as their children gained (more?) knowledge of good vs evil.

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On 3/31/2021 at 4:31 PM, theplains said:

From what I see from LDS literature, the Fall was really a fall upwards and then great blessings
resulted from the Fall.  In essence, God wanted Adam and Eve to disobey him so that his plan
would not be frustrated.  Satan, despite his plans to hurt God's plan, turned out to be the
inadvertent hero and should actually be commended for helping God.  According to the Pearl of
Great Price, Adam actually blesses God for his transgression and Eve  praises both herself and
Adam for their transgression.

I never hear any more of this kind of praise towards God or self-congratulations for any other
disobedience mentioned in the Mormon scriptures.

Correct.
But was it actually disobedience?  God warned them of the penalty for transgressing the law.  But he also commanded them to do something they couldn't if they didn't transgress.
You could reasonably say it was not disobedience to accept the penalty and transgress the law.  Did God actually say "don't eat"?  On the surface, maybe.

Genesis 1:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Thou shalt not sounds like a commandment against doing it for sure.
Is verse 17 actually a restriction or merely a warning about the consequences?  I think it can be read either way.

6 hours ago, theplains said:

I see that Gospel Principles teaches great blessings resulted as a consequence of the Fall.

Yes, they did.  All the eternal blessings God promises us in scripture are dependent on our progression from mortal to resurrected beings.
If we had remained without resurrection (without death) we could not have received them.

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54 minutes ago, Zeniff said:

A lot of words for only one sentence but a very good message in that.  These days most people seem to want to use a minimal amount of words and say something short and sweet. But I think that's what they mean when they refer to their Savior.  

He is the one who has already saved and is still saving us from the fall.  And we still call it the fall, rather than an ascending in glory.  It was not a good move but at least Adam and Eve and us as their children gained (more?) knowledge of good vs evil.

It’s a bad habit of mine; something akin to Obsessive Compulsive Disoerder.

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5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Correct.
But was it actually disobedience?  God warned them of the penalty for transgressing the law.  But he also commanded them to do something they couldn't if they didn't transgress.
You could reasonably say it was not disobedience to accept the penalty and transgress the law.  Did God actually say "don't eat"?  On the surface, maybe.

Genesis 1:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Thou shalt not sounds like a commandment against doing it for sure.
Is verse 17 actually a restriction or merely a warning about the consequences?  I think it can be read either way.

I like how Joseph Smith clarified and enhanced the text of Genesis:

And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat,  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God our Father is the one we think of as the good guy in this story, and he is the one who forbid Adam and Eve to eat from that tree while allowing them to make their own choice about what to do. 

Satan is the one we think of as the bad/evil guy in this story as he tempted/encouraged them to eat that fruit which our Father forbid them to eat, telling them it would be good to eat it. 

And whose advice did Adam and Eve listen to, and choose to follow?  Did they hearken to the good guy or the bad guy in the story?  Starting with Eve, whose advice did she follow to do what she did? 

 

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6 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

It’s a bad habit of mine; something akin to Obsessive Compulsive Disoerder.

I wouldn't say it was bad.  I don't think it is bad to use a lot of words to say something.  There was a time when I used a lot of words too, and I enjoyed the process of doing it.  Now I am more economical, I will say, with words. Maybe I'm just a bit lazy now.

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2 minutes ago, Zeniff said:

I wouldn't say it was bad.  I don't think it is bad to use a lot of words to say something.  There was a time when I used a lot of words too, and I enjoyed the process of doing it.  Now I am more economical, I will say, with words. Maybe I'm just a bit lazy now.

In reality, the original poster and I go way back and, for his sake. try to make things very clear.

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On 4/8/2021 at 4:36 PM, teddyaware said:

As you’ve already read in 2 Nephi 9, not a single good thing comes to mankind as a consequence of the fall because it’s nothing but totally destructive to the welfare and happiness of man in every possible way

What great blessings happened to Adam and Eve in the fall, as Gospel Principles says?

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On 4/8/2021 at 12:38 PM, Zeniff said:

The Fall resulted in:

1) a (greater) knowledge of good and evil than Adam and Eve had before they fell

2) physical death for not only Adam and Eve but all of the children they could have as mortals 

3) actually knowing how to have children, and how to enjoy having them

4) separation from the physical presence of God their Father, who is also our Father in heaven

5) the revealed word of God our Father to tell them how they would be able to overcome their fall through the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Otherwise referred to as the condescension of God.  They had fallen, but the way to get back up was provided.

Regarding #1, what knowledge of good and evil did Adam and Eve have before the fall?

Regarding #3, did eating from the forbidden tree give them knowledge of how to procreate?
How did the animals gain that knowledge?

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