To Act for Ourselves

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Mark White said:

Death is not an end to existence but rather the separation of spirit from something else... mortal death a separation of a person's spirit from that person's "other" body; spiritual death a separation of a person's spirit from the presence of our Father.  

I don't believe the separation of a man's sperm from the body of his spirit qualifies as death.  And it isn't the death of a man's sperm from his body that creates another body; his sperm cells combining with a woman's egg create that other body.

Yes, that is one definition. There are also many other kinds of death that do not require the separation of a body and the spirit housed in it. The spiritually dead from the war in heaven, for example are just operating in a different sphere than they were before.  Or, in another sense, leaving one sphere and entering another is death and birth, respectively, and both metaphorically and literally. The egg and sperm are no longer germ cells (they "die"), but the new zygote is "born."

[Mark White]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, that is one definition. There are also many other kinds of death that do not require the separation of a body and the spirit housed in it. The spiritually dead from the war in heaven, for example are just operating in a different sphere than they were before.  Or, in another sense, leaving one sphere and entering another is death and birth, respectively, and both metaphorically and literally. The egg and sperm are no longer germ cells (they "die"), but the new zygote is "born."

I refer to that as transformation, rather than death.  Such as when a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, or two things become one.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

See my post to teddy above.

I'll also answer your question directly. The course of man would have been to remain in the state of perfect harmony with God, with each other, and with nature. This could only happen with freedom to choose, so we have that freedom. He didn't want to create another animal without the choice to love and commune with Him. He created us "in his image," which to us does not mean we physically look like Him, but that we have some of His faculties: the ability to choose, the ability to give ourselves in love, the ability to know ourselves and others. All the things that differentiate us from the animals.

But because He is omniscient, He knew that the devil would beguile Adam and Eve, even in their state of communion with God, so that redemption would be needed. That redemption would bring about an even great good: the atonement.

I don't like to think about it as plan A and plan B, like the Garden was the first plan and the atonement is a back-up plan. That is linear temporal thinking. God knows all at once. I look at it as a bit of paradox (Star Trek temporal paradoxes anyone? Janeway?) The plan with the Garden and the plan with the atonement are from one point of view two plans, but from another point of view just one plan. That's why we can call the fall a sin, and also call it a "happy fault" or a "fortunate fall."

If the plan without the fall had happened how would that work?

Simply put, it wouldn't.

[JLHPROF]

@Mark White @MiserereNobis

You are addressing the fall itself as opposed to what comes after.

Nobody seems to want to explain how the course of human existence could possibly have run without the fall.

[Mark White]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

@Mark White @MiserereNobis

You are addressing the fall itself as opposed to what comes after.

Nobody seems to want to explain how the course of human existence could possibly have run without the fall.

I was talking about the fall itself, rather than talking about what came after.

Without that fall or some other fall at some other time in some other place we never would have fallen.  

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Mark White said:

I was talking about the fall itself, rather than talking about what came after.

Without that fall or some other fall at some other time in some other place we never would have fallen.  

And I'm saying the fall was supposed to happen.  Because there's no logical path for mankind or the earth if it hadn't.

[MiserereNobis]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If the plan without the fall had happened how would that work?

Simply put, it wouldn't.

Do you mind explaining why it wouldn't?

[MiserereNobis]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

@Mark White @MiserereNobis

You are addressing the fall itself as opposed to what comes after.

Nobody seems to want to explain how the course of human existence could possibly have run without the fall.

I did answer that: "I'll also answer your question directly. The course of man would have been to remain in the state of perfect harmony with God, with each other, and with nature."

[JLHPROF]

Just now, MiserereNobis said:

Do you mind explaining why it wouldn't?

A planet full of immortal people on an everlasting but finite earth?  Basic math.  I think Star Trek TOS covered that.

Also, no death = no resurrection, no heaven, no Jesus.  The existence of Lucifer in the garden would also seem to have no cause.

Not to mention every description we have of God in scripture seems to have a goal of being with him in heaven.  Unnecessary if we live forever on earth.

But I'm open to suggestions.  In fact I've asked for them repeatedly.  What would be the course of mankind and the earth without the fall?

 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

I did answer that: "I'll also answer your question directly. The course of man would have been to remain in the state of perfect harmony with God, with each other, and with nature."

Insufficient explanation.

[Mark White]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And I'm saying the fall was supposed to happen.  Because there's no logical path for mankind or the earth if it hadn't.

Well, honestly I can't say that, but I can say that the only way the Fall would not have happened would have been if the man and woman chosen to represent Adam and Eve had never violated our Father's command to not eat from that tree.

No Fall would mean and would have meant that all of us would have remained in the same state as that Adam and Eve, regardless of whether or not we could remember what our life was like before that moment.

And someday, when those of us who will be restored to that state of Adam and Eve before the Fall are restored to that state, we will again have the same options that Adam and Eve had, whether to obey our Father's command, or not obey him.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Mark White said:

Well, honestly I can't say that, but I can say that the only way the Fall would not have happened would have been if the man and woman chosen to represent Adam and Eve had never violated our Father's command to not eat from that tree.

No Fall would mean and would have meant that all of us would have remained in the same state as that Adam and Eve, regardless of whether or not we could remember what our life was like before that moment.

Yes.  And then what?  For eternity then what?  On this finite globe 🌎 then what path?

After 5000 years of living immortally, having immortal children, never sinning or being resurrected then what? 

Edited April 30, 2021 by JLHPROF

[MiserereNobis]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

A planet full of immortal people on an everlasting but finite earth?  Basic math. 

I'm not sure "basic math" applies when discussing these things  I mean, we're talking about all sorts of things that are beyond the scope of science, so pulling in mathematical science doesn't seem to make much sense. Ya know what I mean?

Also, this is bordering too much on the literal for me. As I said before, I accept the story as an allegory (which my Catholicism is perfectly fine with). As an allegory, a world without the fall works out fine.

But more than that, I want to reiterate my point that I made earlier that from one point-of-view it looks like two plans (no fall, fall plus atonement), and yet from another point-of-view those are actually one plan, despite the apparent paradox/contradiction. Mysticism tends to show that things involving God are paradoxical and non-dualistic. I think that applies to this case, since we are talking about God's plan.

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Also, no death = no resurrection, no heaven, no Jesus.

Well, depends on the definition of heaven. If being in perfect harmony with God and in His presence is heaven, then Adam and Ever were in heaven already.

I'll put resurrection underneath Jesus and agree with you that without the fall, there would have been no Jesus. Hence the Catholic belief in "felix culpa" as has been mentioned earlier. It was a happy fault, a fortunate fall, because it necessitated Christ Jesus and the atonement.

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The existence of Lucifer in the garden would also seem to have no cause.

His existence was necessary to allow for temptation and choice. Just because one doesn't choose the temptation doesn't mean the temptation wasn't necessary. See the temptations of Christ.

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not to mention every description we have of God in scripture seems to have a goal of being with him in heaven.  Unnecessary if we live forever on earth.

Scripture is postlapsarian, so of course it's going to be written about the way things are after the fall.

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But I'm open to suggestions.  In fact I've asked for them repeatedly.  What would be the course of mankind and the earth without the fall?

I think I've given as much as I can. To take things further, you'll probably need to find someone who is not a Catholic (I believe in the fortunate fall) and who takes the story literally instead of allegorically. I'm not sure about Mark White's ultimate position, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he's LDS and has posted here before under different names  

Edited April 30, 2021 by MiserereNobis

[Mark White]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

A planet full of immortal people on an everlasting but finite earth?  Basic math.  I think Star Trek TOS covered that.

There is no good reason to suppose we would be limited to only this planet.  All of the righteous will be able to live on any righteous planet in the future, and the reason it is the future is because we haven't been fully redeemed yet.

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Also, no death = no resurrection, no heaven, no Jesus.  The existence of Lucifer in the garden would also seem to have no cause.

Jesus was chosen to be the Redeemer on the supposition that we or at least some of us would Fall and need a Redeemer, but if we had never fallen then he would not have needed to fil that role for us.

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not to mention every description we have of God in scripture seems to have a goal of being with him in heaven.  Unnecessary if we live forever on earth.

Every planet is created with a heaven on it or above it.  The goal is to be able to live wherever he can live and however he lives.

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But I'm open to suggestions.  In fact I've asked for them repeatedly.  What would be the course of mankind and the earth without the fall?

 

No fall = all of us remaining celestial people, able to live on a celestial planet like we did with our Father in heaven before we came here.  Or at least those of us who were not cast down here like Satan. Now the goal is to be restored to our pre-Fall condition.

[Mark White]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes.  And then what?  For eternity then what?  On this finite globe 🌎 then what path?

After 5000 years of living immortally, having immortal children, never sinning or being resurrected then what? 

I suspect the same things we will experience after we are restored to our pre-Fall condition, except that if we had not fallen then we would not need to be waiting to be restored.

[JLHPROF]

Just now, Mark White said:

I suspect the same things we will experience after we are restored to our pre-Fall condition, except that if we had not fallen then we would not need to be waiting to be restored.

I appreciate you and @MiserereNobis explaining your view.

I see God's plan of salvation including the Savior, fall, and resurrection as positively perfect.  I see no alternative plan that would convince me there was ever another path planned 

[Mark White]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I appreciate you and @MiserereNobis explaining your view.

I see God's plan of salvation including the Savior, fall, and resurrection as positively perfect.  I see no alternative plan that would convince me there was ever another path planned 

I suspect you may feel that way because you have difficulty imagining everybody doing only what God wants them or us to do.  Nobody messing up ever. Everybody making only good choices, obeying our Father.  I can see why you would think no alternative.

I don't think there will ever be a day when I or our Father can plan on everybody being perfect and perfectly good.  Sometimes some of us need to make mistakes because that is how we learn what we should not do.

 

[MiserereNobis]

3 minutes ago, Mark White said:

I suspect you may feel that way because you have difficulty imagining everybody doing only what God wants them or us to do.  Nobody messing up ever. Everybody making only good choices, obeying our Father.  I can see why you would think no alternative.

I don't think there will ever be a day when I or our Father can plan on everybody being perfect and perfectly good.  Sometimes some of us need to make mistakes because that is how we learn what we should not do.

 

I was suspicious after post #6 or so, but now that you're at #18, I just want to say, hi, Ahab, and welcome back!

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by MiserereNobis

[AtlanticMike]

18 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I was suspicious after post #6 or so, but now that you're at #18, I just want to say, hi, Ahab, and welcome back!

I'm so confused, I miss Ahab, are you saying mark white is Ahab? Ahabs account is still active, his account says he visited 6 hours ago.

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[MiserereNobis]

3 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm so confused, I miss Ahab, are you saying mark white is Ahab? Ahabs account is still active

 

Ahab has such a distinctive style. He sometimes starts over with a new account. I highly suspect Mark White is one of his new ones.

[AtlanticMike]

7 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Ahab has such a distinctive style. He sometimes starts over with a new account. I highly suspect Mark White is one of his new ones.

Oh okay, well, hi Mark white, if your the same guy (Ahab) I missed you, if your not, then welcome and I have no idea what is going on🤔

[The Nehor]

How would the Plan work without the Fall?

Adam and Eve eventually have children. All are immortal. All grow up in a Terrestrial environment and are taught and progress in that sphere. They can have heavenly teachers as our first parents did. Then, when the individual (or everyone) is ready God lets them know and commands them (or offers them, not sure which) the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because it was commanded to eat they do not Fall but instead gain that knowledge and maybe Satan is allowed to tempt them as appears to be the plan at the end of the Millenium. Most probably pass the test because they are way more prepared and their bodies are resurrected at that point using the “twinkling of an eye” method and they become celestialized and depart to other spheres to learn more though most likely they can still visit and teach those that remain behind as is reported to happen in the Millenium. After all spirits are born and choose their path the earth is resurrected and the plan continues. No need for Atonement even.

[JLHPROF]

31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

How would the Plan work without the Fall?

Adam and Eve eventually have children. All are immortal. All grow up in a Terrestrial environment and are taught and progress in that sphere. They can have heavenly teachers as our first parents did. Then, when the individual (or everyone) is ready God lets them know and commands them (or offers them, not sure which) the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Because it was commanded to eat they do not Fall but instead gain that knowledge and maybe Satan is allowed to tempt them as appears to be the plan at the end of the Millenium. Most probably pass the test because they are way more prepared and their bodies are resurrected at that point using the “twinkling of an eye” method and they become celestialized and depart to other spheres to learn more though most likely they can still visit and teach those that remain behind as is reported to happen in the Millenium. After all spirits are born and choose their path the earth is resurrected and the plan continues. No need for Atonement even.

Well there you go.  I guess someone does have enough imagination to provide an alternate plan to the fall.

Thanks Nehor! 

Now, is there anything in God's revealed word to indicate that was his preferred goal?

(And I am curious how resurrection would work without death, even in the twinkling of an eye).

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Well there you go.  I guess someone does have enough imagination to provide an alternate plan to the fall.

Thanks Nehor! 

Now, is there anything in God's revealed word to indicate that was his preferred goal?

(And I am curious how resurrection would work without death, even in the twinkling of an eye).

I actually suspect that is the norm for most of the worlds God has formed. Satan tempting with the fruit was doing something that was done in other worlds but at an unauthorized time. That violation of God’s law ruined everything but it was planned from the beginning as a rescue operation.

That is my theory anyways. It is probably heresy.

Nothing in scripture directly supports it. There are bits in the Temple that make me suspect it.

As to how that resurrection works I suspect it is just a change in the body that accomplishes the equivalent of glorifying the body equal to the level of the spirit. There is probably an ordinance. It is what happens in the Millenium when you age out. I suspect the Millenium is the normal plan for progression.

Edited May 1, 2021 by The Nehor

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Mark White said:

Sometimes some of us need to make mistakes because that is how we learn what we should not do.

Which was why the "Fall" was necessary for our progression