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I have a suspicion that things would have played out ‘as happened on other worlds’ if Adam and Eve had rejected the call to partake of the fruit and that they knew what they were doing in some way. It was part of a plan but it was not the standard plan. If it were then the devil is an idiot: “I will screw up this idiotic plan by doing exactly what made it work before. Now victory is assured. MWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!”

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50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have a suspicion that things would have played out ‘as happened on other worlds’ if Adam and Eve had rejected the call to partake of the fruit and that they knew what they were doing in some way. It was part of a plan but it was not the standard plan. If it were then the devil is an idiot: “I will screw up this idiotic plan by doing exactly what made it work before. Now victory is assured. MWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!”

That was how I looked at it eventually. 

I always found Euthyphro's dilemma to me illuminating because it convinced me that God must be God because God is good. That centralized goodness, morality, and truth in a relatively healthy way that continues to be helpful to me as an atheist.

I think that as religions become healthier, they will distance more and more from the Satan archetypes and "don't choose evil" and focus more on choosing good for goodness' sake. I find that shift a really important step to being more personally accountable.

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4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

As I said earlier, the Lucifer archetype seems too convenient, in my opinion, like a boogeyman emphasized and/or constructed to scare people into obedience. To me, there is ample reason to choose good based on the merits of goodness alone. But the warning of "Satan will be able to tempt you more easily" to do evil when you transgress the law seems manipulative. It seems like a way to get people to obey out of fear rather than out of love for goodness itself.

As a temple motif, every character is a convenient symbol. On the whole, my interpretation of gospel doctrine is to obey (and sacrifice, and consecrate, etc.) out of love and goodness and this is the intended message of the archetypes. But I can see how people can use them for alternate aims.

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have a suspicion that things would have played out ‘as happened on other worlds’ if Adam and Eve had rejected the call to partake of the fruit and that they knew what they were doing in some way. It was part of a plan but it was not the standard plan. If it were then the devil is an idiot: “I will screw up this idiotic plan by doing exactly what made it work before. Now victory is assured. MWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!”

The other worlds may simply have been other estates our "generation" of Heavenly Father's children that we passed along the way to paradise, each progressive stage requiring the turning of the respective governing key, represented by partaking of a particular “fruit” that results in intelligences / spirits changing in some way. In this scenario, Lucifer, prior to his rebellion, may well have had an authorized role in these earlier, pre-paradise stages of premortal advancement, next to Christ. He obviously lost that right (but not the memory of the pattern) in the war, and instead of inviting Adam and Eve to partake by his good example, he beguiled them to partake. Evidently, he thought this would frustrate the Father’s plan because Adam and Eve knew a) that he was not authorized to offer the fruit in light of the Father’s command not to partake (yet, anyway) and b) the dilemma created with remaining alone in the garden or dying outside the garden as parents. They had to draw this conclusion on their own because a) they did not remember prior worlds or the world immediately prior to their physical creation; b) they were not warned about Lucifer and his ways; c) the Lord had not commanded them not to seek wisdom, yet to do so is in their very nature. So perhaps Lucifer only had experience with his own “generation” and not with doing the same thing in many other, previous terrestrial worlds.

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8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have a suspicion that things would have played out ‘as happened on other worlds’ if Adam and Eve had rejected the call to partake of the fruit and that they knew what they were doing in some way. It was part of a plan but it was not the standard plan. If it were then the devil is an idiot: “I will screw up this idiotic plan by doing exactly what made it work before. Now victory is assured. MWAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!”

I see Satan as the kind of person who tries to do what he thinks is right and then gets upset when other people don't think he is right.  And he is especially sensitive to our Father's rebuke. Not enough to change his behavior, though.  He just doesn't like to hear that he is wrong, especially when our Father is the one to tell him that he is wrong.  The last generation of temple videos bore that out pretty well, I think.

There Satan was in the garden of Eden thinking Adam and Eve needed to eat that fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  That was what he saw happen on other worlds.  There was always an Adam and Eve and there was always that tree with that fruit.  And then he sees that this particular Adam and Eve aren't eating that fruit so he asks why they aren't eating it.  And then Adam says because our Father told him he would die on the day he ate it.  So then Satan goes, no, that isn't right.  You won't die on the day you eat that fruit.  Youi will become like our Father, gaining knowledge of good and evil.  He just didn't know he would become the evil they knew.  And Satan still thinks he was right to tell them they needed to eat that fruit.

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13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I see Satan as the kind of person who tries to do what he thinks is right and then gets upset when other people don't think he is right.  And he is especially sensitive to our Father's rebuke. Not enough to change his behavior, though.  He just doesn't like to hear that he is wrong, especially when our Father is the one to tell him that he is wrong.  The last generation of temple videos bore that out pretty well, I think.

There Satan was in the garden of Eden thinking Adam and Eve needed to eat that fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  That was what he saw happen on other worlds.  There was always an Adam and Eve and there was always that tree with that fruit.  And then he sees that this particular Adam and Eve aren't eating that fruit so he asks why they aren't eating it.  And then Adam says because our Father told him he would die on the day he ate it.  So then Satan goes, no, that isn't right.  You won't die on the day you eat that fruit.  Youi will become like our Father, gaining knowledge of good and evil.  He just didn't know he would become the evil they knew.  And Satan still thinks he was right to tell them they needed to eat that fruit.

I suspect they would one day be given permission to eat the fruit but not yet.

I also suspect that Adam and Eve made an intentional sacrifice to save fallen spirits by doing so. I suspect a normal world is Terrestrial through the growth process and once the people are ready they eat the fruit. I suspect this world is a rare or unique anomaly.

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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect they would one day be given permission to eat the fruit but not yet.

Our Father gave them permission to choose whether or not to eat that fruit while forbidding them to eat it.  Satan did allow them to eat it, so our Father was on the forbid side while Satan was on the allow side. 

So do you mean you suspect one day our Father would have agreed with Satan?

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I also suspect that Adam and Eve made an intentional sacrifice to save fallen spirits by doing so. I suspect a normal world is Terrestrial through the growth process and once the people are ready they eat the fruit. I suspect this world is a rare or unique anomaly.

Which fallen spirits do you think Adam and Eve saved?  And how do you think they saved them?  And how did those fallen spirits fall in the first place?

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1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Our Father gave them permission to choose whether or not to eat that fruit while forbidding them to eat it.  Satan did allow them to eat it, so our Father was on the forbid side while Satan was on the allow side. 

So do you mean you suspect one day our Father would have agreed with Satan?

Almost all the laws of God govern things happening in the right time and place and forbid them otherwise. Sex is forbidden outside of marriage. Become married and suddenly it is not only approved but is actively encouraged. If I tried to ordain an 8 year old as a deacon I would be disciplined but if the boy were 11 and their birth fell in the right year it would be approved. I lived under more restrictions as a missionary that I do not now.

It is foolish to suggest the Laws of God apply to all equally in the same way at all times.

6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Which fallen spirits do you think Adam and Eve saved?  And how do you think they saved them?  And how did those fallen spirits fall in the first place?

Us. By deliberately falling to a Telestial state so fallen spirits could be born. Not entirely sure, probably due to some missteps in the War in Heaven.

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Almost all the laws of God govern things happening in the right time and place and forbid them otherwise. Sex is forbidden outside of marriage. Become married and suddenly it is not only approved but is actively encouraged. If I tried to ordain an 8 year old as a deacon I would be disciplined but if the boy were 11 and their birth fell in the right year it would be approved. I lived under more restrictions as a missionary that I do not now.

It is foolish to suggest the Laws of God apply to all equally in the same way at all times.

Without any opposing sides all of us would agree with both our Father and Satan and agency would be meaningless.  Everything would be both good and evil and not good and not evil.  Nothing would exist and everything in existence would be nothing.

So at what point in time would you be okay while agreeing with Satan?  And what would be the difference between agreeing with our Father and Satan?

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Us. By deliberately falling to a Telestial state so fallen spirits could be born. Not entirely sure, probably due to some missteps in the War in Heaven.

Interesting.  So you think all of us who are born into mortality are fallen spirits?  Even babies before they are 8 (Earth) years old?  And even our Lord?  I've never considered him to be a fallen spirit.  Interesting idea.

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44 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Interesting.  So you think all of us who are born into mortality are fallen spirits?  Even babies before they are 8 (Earth) years old?  And even our Lord?  I've never considered him to be a fallen spirit.  Interesting idea.

If we are subject to death and physically separated from the presence of God we are by definition fallen.

Edited by JLHPROF
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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Without any opposing sides all of us would agree with both our Father and Satan and agency would be meaningless.  Everything would be both good and evil and not good and not evil.  Nothing would exist and everything in existence would be nothing.

So at what point in time would you be okay while agreeing with Satan?  And what would be the difference between agreeing with our Father and Satan?

Interesting.  So you think all of us who are born into mortality are fallen spirits?  Even babies before they are 8 (Earth) years old?  And even our Lord?  I've never considered him to be a fallen spirit.  Interesting idea.

By that logic in the Premortal world no one made any choices. I get that Lehi said there must be opposition in all things but Satan is not required for there to be opposition. We are reputedly made the same way Satan was. We can go evil without disembodied beings tempting us.

I am sure Satan and I agree on several things. That is not surprising. It is basically impossible to be diametrically opposed on all things. I am not sure Satan even believes his beef is with our Father. He said nothing about Father. He is going after the guy who got the job he wanted. Poor pissant loser.

I suspect that premortal spirits fell, yes. The atonement cleansed them at birth. Jesus was an exception due to the unusual circumstance of His birth. There may be other voluntary objections but my theories on that are so alien even to my disturbed mind that I probably should shut up here.

The condescension of God is greater if it is to save those not “worthy” of mortality. If true then in the same way Adam and Eve might have given up their kingdom and lordship over the Earth to create the circumstances to save those who were fallen. They sacrificed what they deserved and earned to give us the ability to be born. God could not command them to do it but He approved of this “hack” of the Plan. It is the only reasonable explanation I have come up with for God’s “I want you to do this but I can’t tell you to so we need to allow Satan to come to a place he should not be allowed to be so he can convince you” bit. It also gives context for Satan actually thinking he was ruining everything. It is enough to make you feel sorry for the dumb sap if there were anything humanizing or lovable or likable left of him.

Again, this is if I am right. I am not convinced of it. The only thing I get from the Spirit about it is a kind of muffled “Look over there” pointing towards it. I am not sure if that means it is right or it is a step to figuring things out and being wrong is the path to being right or maybe God figured if He gave me a theological puzzle I would be less dangerous to myself and everyone around me.

Edited by The Nehor
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12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If we are subject to death and physically separated from the presence of God we are by definition fallen.

What do you mean by the "presence of God"?  Which person? 

Was our Lord fallen when he left our Father? 

Does having the presence of the Holy Ghost in our life count? 

Are we always going to be fallen unless we are standing very near the actual presence of our Father?

How close to our Father do we need to be standing before we are no longer fallen?

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1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

He said nothing about Father.

He did demand the glory that Christ said would be the Father’s.

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2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

What do you mean by the "presence of God"?  Which person? 
God the Father.  

Was our Lord fallen when he left our Father? 
Yes

Does having the presence of the Holy Ghost in our life count? 
No

Are we always going to be fallen unless we are standing very near the actual presence of our Father?
No but we will until we are able to be in his presence.

How close to our Father do we need to be standing before we are no longer fallen?
Funny.

 

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

By that logic in the Premortal world no one made any choices.

No, we did, either a good choice or an evil choice depending on who we chose to follow.  Those who followed Satan are the ones we call the bad guys.  And those who followed our Father and his will are the ones we call the good guys.

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I get that Lehi said there must be opposition in all things but Satan is not required for there to be opposition.

A Satan is.  Satan is by definition the rebel against God's will.  God's adversary.  His nemesis.  The one who opposes God's will and represents everything in opposition to God's will.  Maybe Lucifer could have chosen to not be the big bad Satan guy but someone would have filled that position.  Otherwise all of us would be in agreement with God and he would have no opposition.

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We are reputedly made the same way Satan was. We can go evil without disembodied beings tempting us.

True, more or less.  But those who rebel against God don't usually sit idly by while exerting no influence.  They'd like to get as many of us on their side as possible, to build up their own evil kingdom(s).

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am sure Satan and I agree on several things. That is not surprising. It is basically impossible to be diametrically opposed on all things. I am not sure Satan even believes his beef is with our Father. He said nothing about Father. He is going after the guy who got the job he wanted. Poor pissant loser.

Him and everyone else who opposes his will..  He doesn't like any of us who are on God's side of any issue.

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect that premortal spirits fell, yes. The atonement cleansed them at birth. Jesus was an exception due to the unusual circumstance of His birth. The condescension of God. In the same way Adam and Eve might have given up their kingdom and lordship over the Earth to create the circumstances to save those who were fallen. God could not command them to do it but He approved of this “hack” of the Plan. It is the only reasonable explanation I have come up with for God’s “I want you to do this but I can’t tell you to so we need to allow Satan to come to a place he should not be allowed to be so he can convince you” bit. It also gives context for Satan actually thinking he was ruining everything. It is enough to make you feel sorry for the dumb sap if there were anything humanizing or lovable or likable left of him.

Yeah, kinda sorta.  I still love the evil guy at least a little bit.  I just wish he would stop messing things up in this world so that we could enjoy more good times than bad times that result from his bad influence.

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10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, we did, either a good choice or an evil choice depending on who we chose to follow.  Those who followed Satan are the ones we call the bad guys.  And those who followed our Father and his will are the ones we call the good guys.

A Satan is.  Satan is by definition the rebel against God's will.  God's adversary.  His nemesis.  The one who opposes God's will and represents everything in opposition to God's will.  Maybe Lucifer could have chosen to not be the big bad Satan guy but someone would have filled that position.  Otherwise all of us would be in agreement with God and he would have no opposition.

True, more or less.  But those who rebel against God don't usually sit idly by while exerting no influence.  They'd like to get as many of us on their side as possible, to build up their own evil kingdom(s).

Him and everyone else who opposes his will..  He doesn't like any of us who are on God's side of any issue.

Yeah, kinda sorta.  I still love the evil guy at least a little bit.  I just wish he would stop messing things up in this world so that we could enjoy more good times than bad times that result from his bad influence.

So our first choice was between Jesus and Satan? I don’t think so. We are told that we have progressed for a long time before we were born. We made choices.

So when Satan is cast out agency goes away? I don’t buy it. We are told Satan has no power to influence small children. Anyone who has been around small children knows they can be selfish little gits. If not Satan then the power to choose wrongly is allowed to us without a devil.

Yes, but fallen spirits are not mandatory to lead anyone to evil. Remember that Lucifer (as far as we know) never ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If he did not then how is he evil?

Lucifer has no problem with righteousness as such. He just wants to be in charge.

I have a friend. Growing up as a kid she used to pray that Satan would repent and come to see he was wrong so he could be loved. Her mom was worried it was making her a target. Then she went nuts as a teenager before pulling it all together and going on a mission. She has had and continues to have a pretty difficult life. I was a friend and later developed feelings for her. I asked her out and we went on a date. It was fun and then I saw her two days later and she had decided to go on a mission. At the time it felt like the equivalent of her saying: “After one date with you I have decided to become a nun for a while.” In any case I don’t recommend praying for Satan. ;) 

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19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So our first choice was between Jesus and Satan? I don’t think so. We are told that we have progressed for a long time before we were born. We made choices.

So when Satan is cast out agency goes away? I don’t buy it. We are told Satan has no power to influence small children. Anyone who has been around small children knows they can be selfish little gits. If not Satan then the power to choose wrongly is allowed to us without a devil.

Yes, but fallen spirits are not mandatory to lead anyone to evil. Remember that Lucifer (as far as we know) never ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If he did not then how is he evil?

Lucifer has no problem with righteousness as such. He just wants to be in charge.

I have a friend. Growing up as a kid she used to pray that Satan would repent and come to see he was wrong so he could be loved. Her mom was worried it was making her a target. Then she went nuts as a teenager before pulling it all together and going on a mission. She has had and continues to have a pretty difficult life. I was a friend and later developed feelings for her. I asked her out and we went on a date. It was fun and then I saw her two days later and she had decided to go on a mission. At the time it felt like the equivalent of her saying: “After one date with you I have decided to become a nun for a while.” In any case I don’t recommend praying for Satan. ;) 

First of all, you were giving me credit for words I did not say and I didn't appreciate that and I would like you to stop that if you are able.  Now I will dissect all of your comments.

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So our first choice was between Jesus and Satan? I don’t think so. We are told that we have progressed for a long time before we were born. We made choices.

No.  I'm sure we made a lot of choice before we had that particular family council meeting in heaven.  Probably similar to how mortal children make a lot of choices before they leave their mortal parents to go to college or on a mission.

Quote

So when Satan is cast out agency goes away? I don’t buy it. We are told Satan has no power to influence small children. Anyone who has been around small children knows they can be selfish little gits. If not Satan then the power to choose wrongly is allowed to us without a devil.

No. I'm sure we've been making choices ever since we were born as spirit children to our parents in heaven.  But we were all still living in our home in heaven.  And then Satan was kicked out while we were told when it was time to leave to come here.

Quote

Yes, but fallen spirits are not mandatory to lead anyone to evil.  Remember that Lucifer (as far as we know) never ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If he did not then how is he evil?

I know, it's just something they do.  They don't sit idly by while exerting no influence. They whisper and murmur and talk about conspiracy theories and they do a lot of bad things and very little if any good things.  They do have an influence.

And while this time on this planet is not the first time we've been able to make choices it is the first time we've had this veil over our memories so that we don't remember much about living in heaven.  And we think Satan became evil when he rebelled against our Father so much and to the point that he would not repent and was kicked out of heaven.

 

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Lucifer has no problem with righteousness as such. He just wants to be in charge.

No, he has a problem with righteousness too.  He doesn't want anyone to know there is a right way to do things.  He's all for doing things your own way however you want to do them with no regard at all for our Father's will or knowledge of what is right.

He doesn't even want us to mention our Father and would rather we call him our Father and God.

Quote

I have a friend. Growing up as a kid she used to pray that Satan would repent and come to see he was wrong so he could be loved. Her mom was worried it was making her a target. Then she went nuts as a teenager before pulling it all together and going on a mission. She has had and continues to have a pretty difficult life. I was a friend and later developed feelings for her. I asked her out and we went on a date. It was fun and then I saw her two days later and she had decided to go on a mission. At the time it felt like the equivalent of her saying: “After one date with you I have decided to become a nun for a while.” In any case I don’t recommend praying for Satan. ;) 

We're supposed to pray for our enemies, though.  And love them too.  Even Satan.  We're just not supposed to love anyone more than we love our Father in heaven or our Lord Jesus Christ.  Because if we love others more we will put their interests first.

Edited by Ahab
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Posted (edited)
On 3/20/2021 at 12:56 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

All is figurative and symbolic, but the consequences are real.  In other words, no one eats an actual piece of fruit, and no one is created from a rib.

Does that mean you believe there was no real garden and that God did not make any trees that were
pleasant to the sight of Adam and Eve?

Edited by theplains
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On 3/20/2021 at 4:33 PM, CV75 said:

What was God's desired will for the Redeemer who was foreordained before the foundation of the world?

God's desired will was never for Adam and Eve to disobey him.  That's why he told them not
to eat from the forbidden tree. But with the Fall, God's desired will was for mankind to be redeemed
through the Atonement.  The Fall caused the need for an Atonement.   

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On 3/22/2021 at 2:58 PM, Ahab said:

That would depend on which definition of god we chose to use, I think.   You and I were 2 of those people.  Does being the same kind of being as our Father in heaven suffice as a good definition of god to you?

I don't believe God, angels, and humans are of the same nature. My only exception would
be Jesus (both God and man).

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20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So our first choice was between Jesus and Satan? I don’t think so. We are told that we have progressed for a long time before we were born. We made choices.

What choices between good and evil  (agency) do you believe you made in this pre-mortal
celestial home while you were progressing for a long time (as you say)?

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11 minutes ago, theplains said:

I don't believe God, angels, and humans are of the same nature. My only exception would
be Jesus (both God and man).

Okay,  Then just understand that we believe you are wrong about that.  When we say God is our Father in heaven we mean what we say.  He is the Father of all of us, our individual spirits.  And Jesus is the same kind of being as our Father in heaven and he can also adopt us so that he can also be our Father in heaven.  You can say great or grand Father if you want to but still they are both our Fathers when Jesus adopts us as his children, when we consent to that by accepting a covenant with him to that effect.  Angels are simply messengers of God, anyone our Father or our Lord sends to deliver a message to us.  So we say you don't know what kind of being you are if you don't know you are a child of God.  Our Father is a particular kind of being and we are that same kind of being even though we are not as perfect and perfectly good as he is, yet.

Edited by Ahab
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17 minutes ago, theplains said:

God's desired will was never for Adam and Eve to disobey him.  That's why he told them not
to eat from the forbidden tree. But with the Fall, God's desired will was for mankind to be redeemed
through the Atonement.  The Fall caused the need for an Atonement.   

I disagree.
The atonement and the fall are all part of the plan.  There was no alternate plan where neither was necessary.

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13 minutes ago, theplains said:

What choices between good and evil  (agency) do you believe you made in this pre-mortal
celestial home while you were progressing for a long time (as you say)?

We made many.

  • Knowest thou not that eternities ago, thy spirit,pure and holy, dwelt in thy Heavenly Father's bosom, and in His presence, with thy mother, one of the queens of heaven,thou wert surrounded by thy brother and sisters spirits in the spirit world, among the Gods?
    That as thy spirit beheld the scenes transpiring there, and thou grew in intelligence, thou sawest world upon worlds organized and peopled with thy kindred spirits, take upon them tabernacles, die, resurrect, and receive their exaltation on the redeemed worlds they once dwelt upon.
    Thou, being willing and anxious to imitate them, waiting and desirous to obtain a body, a resurrection and exaltation also, and having obtained permission, thou made a covenant with one of thy kindred spirits to be thy guardian angel while in mortality, also with two others, male and female spirits, that thou wouldst come and take a tabernacle through their lineage, and become one of their offspring.
    - President John Taylor
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7 minutes ago, theplains said:

God's desired will was never for Adam and Eve to disobey him.  That's why he told them not
to eat from the forbidden tree. But with the Fall, God's desired will was for mankind to be redeemed
through the Atonement.  The Fall caused the need for an Atonement.   

Evidently you believe "before the foundation of the world" (e.g., 1 Peter 1:18-21; Ephesians 1:3-12; 1 Corinthians 2:6-8; ) means after the Creation and the Fall. The Fall and the need for an Atonement were contemplated and part of the Plan well before they occurred.

 

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