To Act for Ourselves

[theplains]

On 6/30/2021 at 4:41 AM, InCognitus said:

Since you believe that Jesus was to shed his "precious blood" as a lamb without blemish and without spot, and was foreordained "before the foundation of the world" (according to 1 Peter 1:19-20). what do you think is the proper answer to your question?

I believe the Fall caused the need for the Atonement, and not the other way around.   The
Atonement was foreordained in response to the Fall, but I don't believe He desired sin and
death to enter the world He created.  Just like in the future in God's eternal home - there
won't be another Fall and another need for a subsequent Atonement.

But I suppose there might be.  From what I know of LDS theology, I suppose there was an
Atonement performed on the planet that the man (who would become the God and Heavenly
Father of Earth) grew up on - as Jesus performed the Atonement on our planet.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

I believe the Fall caused the need for the Atonement, and not the other way around.   The
Atonement was foreordained in response to the Fall, but I don't believe He desired sin and
death to enter the world He created.  Just like in the future in God's eternal home - there
won't be another Fall and another need for a subsequent Atonement.

But I suppose there might be.  From what I know of LDS theology, I suppose there was an
Atonement performed on the planet that the man (who would become the God and Heavenly
Father of Earth) grew up on - as Jesus performed the Atonement on our planet.

There are some who believe that but it is not "Doctrine"

[Meadowchik]

I think it's a symbolic attempt to explain the existence of evil in the world, especially in a world where man has personified good in the form of Deity. That personification demands this explanation.

I think there are gentler and clearer ways to understand the existence of good and evil. The Book of Mormon alludes to opposition in all things, and I think the truth is close to that.

Life is renewal and also death. Consciousness is joy, suffering, and much more. This explanation avoids the moral hazards of the age-old symbolism when it is taken literally and too seriously.

I have learned that a have power to act, and that conscious choices can enrich my existence and make it good.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Meadowchik

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

I believe the Fall caused the need for the Atonement, and not the other way around.   The
Atonement was foreordained in response to the Fall, but I don't believe He desired sin and
death to enter the world He created.  Just like in the future in God's eternal home - there
won't be another Fall and another need for a subsequent Atonement.

But I suppose there might be.  From what I know of LDS theology, I suppose there was an
Atonement performed on the planet that the man (who would become the God and Heavenly
Father of Earth) grew up on - as Jesus performed the Atonement on our planet.

You never could provide an alternate plan.  One where Adam and Eve remained immortal in paradise, no death or resurrection, no need for heaven and hell.  No Jesus since the Father wouldn't need to become human/mortal, die and be resurrected.  No sin to bring death so no resurrection.  No commandments, no Bible, no prophecy of end times, no end times at all.

The world with no path to follow.  Just a permanent Paradise with no progress or change possible.  Sounds like hell to me.

[Nofear]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

You never could provide an alternate plan.  One where Adam and Eve remained immortal in paradise, no death or resurrection, no need for heaven and hell.  No Jesus since the Father wouldn't need to become human/mortal, die and be resurrected.  No sin to bring death so no resurrection.  No commandments, no Bible, no prophecy of end times, no end times at all.

The world with no path to follow.  Just a permanent Paradise with no progress or change possible.  Sounds like hell to me.

The alternate plan would be simply that at some future point, after future instruction and guidance, Adam and Eve would have been invited to freely partake of the fruit and leave Eden / fall. Satan completely unnecessary. Satan, seeing this being how things was done on other worlds, he sought to mess things up my prematurely introducing Adam and Eve to the fruit before they were ready thinking that he'd just mess up all creation by getting started on the wrong foot.

So, did Adam and Eve technically error in partaking of the fruit at Lucifer's invitation? Yes. Did God work around that situation and foil Satan's hopes? Yes. Would God introduce a system of world colonization where one of His children are needed to rebel and damn themselves for all eternity for the plans to work? Heavens no. That's just plain unethical.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Nofear said:

at some future point, after future instruction and guidance, Adam and Eve would have been invited to freely partake of the fruit and leave Eden / fall. Satan completely unnecessary.

So they would still have to fall, become mortal, and die?

So they would still need the resurrection?  And presumably Christ to receive the keys of resurrection first?
But what would cause this fall/death?  Even if they "partook of the fruit" I don't see that death and the fall come without sin.  It is literally sin that causes a fall and death.  Without sin the Fall couldn't occur.  The so called fruit doesn't do anything.

[Nofear]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So they would still have to fall, become mortal, and die?

So they would still need the resurrection?  And presumably Christ to receive the keys of resurrection first?
But what would cause this fall/death?  Even if they "partook of the fruit" I don't see that death and the fall come without sin.  It is literally sin that causes a fall and death.  Without sin the Fall couldn't occur.  The so called fruit doesn't do anything.

It was partaking the fruit, whatever that means, that caused the Fall, not the transgression per se. It happened to occur because of transgression in our iteration of the Plan, but that doesn't mean it has to happen that way. That aside, humans are quite capable of sin without an external tempter. During the Millennium, Satan will be bound. But there will still be sin. None of us are culpable for Adam and Eve's transgression and yet somehow every single human still managed their own sinful fall.

And you still side step the ethical quandary of requiring one of God's children to damn themselves. Imagine the Plan being explained in the Council of Heaven. "Now that the Plan is proposed, we need a volunteer to take upon yourself the sins of everybody." Jesus volunteers. "Now we need somebody to volunteer to accept eternal damnation so we can get things going." Lucifer excitedly says, "I'll do it!"   ... not a plausible scenario.

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, Nofear said:

It was partaking the fruit, whatever that means, that caused the Fall, not the transgression per se. It happened to occur because of transgression in our iteration of the Plan, but that doesn't mean it has to happen that way. That aside, humans are quite capable of sin without an external tempter. During the Millennium, Satan will be bound. But there will still be sin. None of us are culpable for Adam and Eve's transgression and yet somehow every single human still managed their own sinful fall.

And you still side step the ethical quandary of requiring one of God's children to damn themselves. Imagine the Plan being explained in the Council of Heaven. "Now that the Plan is proposed, we need a volunteer to take upon yourself the sins of everybody." Jesus volunteers. "Now we need somebody to volunteer to accept eternal damnation so we can get things going." Lucifer excitedly says, "I'll do it!"   ... not a plausible scenario.

I don't believe it was "partaking the fruit" that caused the Fall.  The wages of sin are death according to scripture.  It is literally sin that causes death.

As for Lucifer - "Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

Lucifer once cast from heaven didn't fully understand what the plan was when he acted in the garden.  He may have known what was done on other worlds, but he literally helped kick off the plan.
Probably because he knew that he'd get more of us after the fall than he could if he hadn't helped make it happen.

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Lucifer once cast from heaven didn't fully understand what the plan was when he acted in the garden.  He may have known what was done on other worlds, but he literally helped kick off the plan.
Probably because he knew that he'd get more of us after the fall than he could if he hadn't helped make it happen.

The Plan was probably explained pretty darn well in the Council of Heaven. I suspect omniscient, all loving beings are kind of good that way.

It would have made much more sense for him to keep Adam and Eve in the Garden. Then the Plan would have been frustrated from the get go. Satan may be stupid, but he's also pretty intelligent. He also would have seen what happened to all the other previous rebels. I can just imagine him being so cocky as to say, "I know every other rebel consigned themselves to a state of horrific misery and woe, but I'm going to do the exact same thing and it will be different for me because I'm just awesome that way."