Jump to content

Recommended Posts

On 3/20/2021 at 9:58 AM, theplains said:

I believe the fall was allowed in God's permitted will. But I don't believe it was his desired will.

I agree, and I believe most of us (LDS) agree with that too.  The problem was that we needed to somehow gain knowledge of what is good and we couldn't do that without knowing what evil was too. 

If only Adam and Eve could have known God and all that was good without also learning who and what was evil too.

 

On 3/20/2021 at 9:58 AM, theplains said:

Do you see a difference in what God allows to happen versus what God wants/desires to happen?

Yes, like when God allows us to make our own choices regardless of what we choose while his desire is that we only make good choices without having to experience anything that is evil.

Link to post
5 minutes ago, Ahab said:
Quote

I believe the fall was allowed in God's permitted will. But I don't believe it was his desired will.

I agree, and I believe most of us (LDS) agree with that too.  The problem was that we needed to somehow gain knowledge of what is good and we couldn't do that without knowing what evil was too. 

I don't agree.  The temple and scripture provide enough evidence to indicate that the fall was God's will.

Link to post
Just now, JLHPROF said:

I don't agree.  The temple and scripture provide enough evidence to indicate that the fall was God's will.

Evidence can be interpreted in ways that aren't true, so how about a statement from God stating he wanted the fall to happen.  A direct quote would be very nice.   

What I see is evidence that he knew it would happen and that he was prepared for it to happen before it happened, but with so much effort going into restoring us to our pre-fall condition I think he really wanted and still wants is us to be in our pre-fall condition with a perfect memory of what he really wants for us.

Link to post
15 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Evidence can be interpreted in ways that aren't true, so how about a statement from God stating he wanted the fall to happen.  A direct quote would be very nice.   

What I see is evidence that he knew it would happen and that he was prepared for it to happen before it happened, but with so much effort going into restoring us to our pre-fall condition I think he really wanted and still wants is us to be in our pre-fall condition with a perfect memory of what he really wants for us.

Well, since I don't have a direct quote from the lips of the creator of the universe to satisfy you I'll let you continue thinking that way.  :rolleyes:

I'll go with scripture and the endowment.  Somebody should have told God that when he commanded them to multiply and replenish the earth before the fall that they wouldn't be able to.

Edited by JLHPROF
Link to post
5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, since I don't have a direct quote from the lips of the creator of the universe to satisfy you I'll let you continue thinking that way.  :rolleyes:

I'll go with scripture and the endowment.  Somebody should have told God that when he commanded them to multiply and replenish the earth before the fall that they wouldn't be able to.

No, I think somebody should have told Adam and Eve that if they wanted to know how to have children then they should have asked God how to do it.

  • Haha 1
Link to post
13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, I think somebody should have told Adam and Eve that if they wanted to know how to have children then they should have asked God how to do it.


1. First God said:

  • Moses 2:27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.
    28 And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

2. In fact, to be precise God said:

  • Abraham 4:28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

3. Then along came Satan who we know was doing that which has been done on other worlds.

  • Fortunately "Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

4. And so after the Fall we learn that:

  • Moses 5:10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
    11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.


I think Nephi's statement that God provides a way to fill his commands holds here.  The Fall was always the plan.  In fact, it was the only plan.  Satan just may not have been in on it.  No wonder he's so grumpy.  :diablo:

 

Edited by JLHPROF
Link to post
1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The fall was the plan all along in Mormon theology.  It was supposed to happen, always going to happen.  God knew that, and after the Fall Adam and Eve knew that.
And there is plenty of evidence to show that.

I suspect their so-called “not obeying the command to multiply and replenish the earth” doesn’t refer to their unwillingness or to their lack of familiarity with the anatomy, mechanics or psychology of sexual intercourse, but to something else that was beyond their understanding and control, such as their paradisiacal physiology. The tree of knowledge of good and evil wasn’t about sex education but about getting the wisdom of the gods to accomplish something they came to realize was beyond their present capacity. It wasn't about disobedience for the same reason: They had learned to obey, but not to sacrifice, and the fruit of the tree of knowledge led to that discovery. Seeking wisdom was something they had not been commanded to do, but being gods in embryo, what else could they have done but to initiate a journey of discovery and self-discovery? It is how they were made, they just did not know it yet, and the only way to find out was built into their attributes as children of God.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:


1. First God said:

  • Moses 2:27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.
    28 And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

2. In fact, to be precise God said:

  • Abraham 4:28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

3. Then along came Satan who we know was doing that which has been done on other worlds.

  • Fortunately "Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

4. And so after the Fall we learn that:

  • Moses 5:10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.
    11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.


I think Nephi's statement that God provides a way to fill his commands holds here.  The Fall was always the plan.  In fact, it was the only plan.  Satan just may not have been in on it.  No wonder he's so grumpy.  :diablo:

 

I understand the same facts you understand but how we each tell the story makes a big difference in correctly portraying what actually happened.

For example, it wouldn't be wrong but it would not be the best way to say it if we simply said that God's plan was to make Adam and Eve miserable so that by becoming miserable they would then know how to have joy.  Just as they would not have known how to have joy if they had not fallen they also would not have known how to have misery, either.  Their misery resulted from eating that fruit God had told them not to eat and their joy resulted from knowing how to be forgiven for their transgression as well as how to enjoy having children.

God's plan was always about how to help his children know how to have joy.  Their misery was a result of their fall.

Link to post
10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I suspect their so-called “not obeying the command to multiply and replenish the earth” doesn’t refer to their unwillingness or to their lack of familiarity with the anatomy, mechanics or psychology of sexual intercourse, but to something else that was beyond their understanding and control, such as their paradisiacal physiology. The tree of knowledge of good and evil wasn’t about sex education but about getting the wisdom of the gods to accomplish something they came to realize was beyond their present capacity. It wasn't about disobedience for the same reason: They had learned to obey, but not to sacrifice, and the fruit of the tree of knowledge led to that discovery. Seeking wisdom was something they had not been commanded to do, but being gods in embryo, what else could they have done but to initiate a journey of discovery and self-discovery? It is how they were made, they just did not know it yet, and the only way to find out was built into their attributes as children of God.

I like this.
To be clear I have no idea WHY they were unable to multiply and replenish the earth in their created paradisaical physiology, but it's pretty clear that God commanded them to do so and then forbade them to do the necessary thing.
Whatever the symbolic elements represent it's clear that if God wanted to be obeyed the fall was the way to do it.  That along with the premortal selection of a Savior makes it clear the fall was the plan all along.

I mean, this could be a fun game.  If the Fall wasn't the plan, how were we to achieve God's goals?  What would the course of an unfallen earth and human race look like?
It could be fun to speculate.  If Adam and Eve hadn't made the necessary sacrifice would any of us become like God?  Would his work and glory be halted? 

Link to post
9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

...how we each tell the story makes a big difference in correctly portraying what actually happened.

God's plan was always about how to help his children know how to have joy.  Their misery was a result of their fall.

It's more correct to say God's plan was to help his children achieve eternal joy.  And there would be no way to do that without the fall.
I think it's a misconception they would have been happier in the long run if they hadn't fallen.

Link to post
3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's more correct to say God's plan was to help his children achieve eternal joy.  And there would be no way to do that without the fall.
I think it's a misconception they would have been happier in the long run if they hadn't fallen.

I get that, but when saying it was his plan that they fall it sounds like his plan was to make them miserable, because their misery was a result of their fall.  The fall itself did not produce joy.  Their joy came and still comes from being redeemed from the fall.

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 minute ago, Ahab said:

I get that, but when saying it was his plan that they fall it sounds like his plan was to make them miserable, because their misery was a result of their fall.  The fall itself did not produce joy.  Their joy came and still comes from being redeemed from the fall.

That is an excellent additional perspective.  I don't know that it changes the theology that God's plan was for the Fall to happen.  God never wanted or expected Adam and Eve to remain in their unfallen state.  But it does make a difference in explaining why.
After all, men are that they may have joy.

  • Like 1
Link to post
2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Of course he did.

But our theology also teaches us that he was doing what was done in all other creations.  Therefore, the plan.
And scripture tells us that "Moses 4:6 And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

He apparently didn't know God's plan when he tempted Eve.  We've always assumed only Adam and Eve had the veil over their eyes.  Perhaps Lucifer also was ignorant of premortality.

How would Lucifer be ignorant of premortality? He was never mortal.

Just FYI, I don't want to play "gotchya," I just see a big problem with Lucifer. The role seems awfully convenient, and doesn't really seem to allow for him to have free will. As a child, I think i saw this immediately, and I was concerned that anyone could be doomed for ever and ever.

The Lucifer role is almost like the boogeyman the powerful man tries to scare people with: "Watch out, if you don't trust me, he's gonna get ya!"...therefore keeping people close to him out of fear.

I think that a more sound plan would have been possible without requiring someone to make such dreadful choices. I know that as a believer, I posited some other possibility, that (if I remember correctly) perhaps Adam and Eve would have learned eventually on their own that leaving the Garden was important. I know that it was important to me that there was a possibility for the Plan to move forward without someone being needed to choose eternal misery.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

How would Lucifer be ignorant of premortality? He was never mortal.

Just FYI, I don't want to play "gotchya," I just see a big problem with Lucifer. The role seems awfully convenient, and doesn't really seem to allow for him to have free will. As a child, I think i saw this immediately, and I was concerned that anyone could be doomed for ever and ever.

The Lucifer role is almost like the boogeyman the powerful man tries to scare people with: "Watch out, if you don't trust me, he's gonna get ya!"...therefore keeping people close to him out of fear.

I think that a more sound plan would have been possible without requiring someone to make such dreadful choices. I know that as a believer, I posited some other possibility, that (if I remember correctly) perhaps Adam and Eve would have learned eventually on their own that leaving the Garden was important. I know that it was important to me that there was a possibility for the Plan to move forward without someone being needed to choose eternal misery.

Is it not possible that when he was cast from heaven that a veil was placed over his mind?  We always assume he knows as much as God.  Perhaps he knew only as much as Adam.
I guess it depends on whether the veil of forgetfulness is caused by physical bodies, the fall, God's will, or something else.  But scripture says he didn't know what God was thinking (ie planning).

I do understand your point concerning Lucifer.  And truthfully I don't think we have all the answers.  I've heard some odd speculations over the years.
But I am convinced that the Fall was necessary, an act as natural a part of progression as we consider birth, growth and development,  and death today.  I don't believe there is any viable alternative plan to go from pre-mortal spirit existence to becoming like God.
This is basically our adolescence.
I do think it would be fascinating to speculate on a path from spirit life to exalted eternal being that didn't involve a fall or a Savior.  Personally I think if that were an option God might have mentioned it at some point, probably to Adam before the fall.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
53 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I like this.
To be clear I have no idea WHY they were unable to multiply and replenish the earth in their created paradisaical physiology, but it's pretty clear that God commanded them to do so and then forbade them to do the necessary thing.
Whatever the symbolic elements represent it's clear that if God wanted to be obeyed the fall was the way to do it.  That along with the premortal selection of a Savior makes it clear the fall was the plan all along.

I mean, this could be a fun game.  If the Fall wasn't the plan, how were we to achieve God's goals?  What would the course of an unfallen earth and human race look like?
It could be fun to speculate.  If Adam and Eve hadn't made the necessary sacrifice would any of us become like God?  Would his work and glory be halted? 

Yes, He forbade them to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil – yet made them to seek wisdom and did not forbid them to seek wisdom.  Some motives, intentions and pursuits in partaking of the forbidden fruit (e.g., satisfy curiosity, enjoy its sweetness, etc.) were less acceptable than seeking wisdom, which could only come by way of experiencing loss and sacrifice. He forbade them until they arrived at this point, and after they partook, there was no further need to forbid them or their offspring to partake. They could articulate this in hindsight, after the angel explained the plan of salvation to them after many days of animal sacrifice.

I use “paradisiacal physiology” for working=model purposes; it is in some ways literal/physical and others figurative/spiritual. I’m thinking in terms of our bodies being quickened by the glory of our spirit which possesses them. While this is typically used to describe our glory in the resurrection, I think it can also apply to mortal life. For example, only a certain glory can enjoy the continuation of the seeds in the next life. I suppose a portion of the same glory is granted us in this life to procreate, which is why this power is so sacred. Adam and Eve could not attain this glory as paradisaical beings; this level of glory was commensurate with the wisdom that comes through loss, sacrifice, death, etc., which came to them through the Fall. Their mortal offspring inherit this glory.

So, I’m thinking something was “turned on” either/both physiologically and figuratively. Physiologically, some change in their bodies was turned on, as Brigham Young taught. When we receive our endowments or sealings, the higher covenant is turned on and children are born in the covenant. The laws of this world are broken when we make celestial covenants in the temple, just as paradisiacal laws were broken when the procreative glory was endowed upon Adam and Eve in the Fall.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
30 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

How would Lucifer be ignorant of premortality? He was never mortal.

Just FYI, I don't want to play "gotchya," I just see a big problem with Lucifer. The role seems awfully convenient, and doesn't really seem to allow for him to have free will. As a child, I think i saw this immediately, and I was concerned that anyone could be doomed for ever and ever.

The Lucifer role is almost like the boogeyman the powerful man tries to scare people with: "Watch out, if you don't trust me, he's gonna get ya!"...therefore keeping people close to him out of fear.

I think that a more sound plan would have been possible without requiring someone to make such dreadful choices. I know that as a believer, I posited some other possibility, that (if I remember correctly) perhaps Adam and Eve would have learned eventually on their own that leaving the Garden was important. I know that it was important to me that there was a possibility for the Plan to move forward without someone being needed to choose eternal misery.

I'm not so sure it was a dreadful choice, but a healthy, built-in tendency that they were not commanded to resist. For brevity, see these prior posts: Posted 1 hour ago & Posted just now

Satan was just acting on his cultivated tendencies, whether he was aware of their tendency to seek wisdom or not.

Link to post
21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Is it not possible that when he was cast from heaven that a veil was placed over his mind?  We always assume he knows as much as God.  Perhaps he knew only as much as Adam.
I guess it depends on whether the veil of forgetfulness is caused by physical bodies, the fall, God's will, or something else.  But scripture says he didn't know what God was thinking (ie planning).

I do understand your point concerning Lucifer.  And truthfully I don't think we have all the answers.  I've heard some odd speculations over the years.
But I am convinced that the Fall was necessary, an act as natural a part of progression as we consider birth, growth and development,  and death today.  I don't believe there is any viable alternative plan to go from pre-mortal spirit existence to becoming like God.
This is basically our adolescence.
I do think it would be fascinating to speculate on a path from spirit life to exalted eternal being that didn't involve a fall or a Savior.  Personally I think if that were an option God might have mentioned it at some point, probably to Adam before the fall.

Perhaps given their inborn quest for wisdom, they might have asked Him eventually. They may have been used to Him doing all the talking, and so were susceptible to Lucifer doing the same.

Link to post
17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Physiologically, some change in their bodies was turned on, as Brigham Young taught. When we receive our endowments or sealings, the higher covenant is turned on and children are born in the covenant. The laws of this world are broken when we make celestial covenants in the temple, just as paradisiacal laws were broken when the procreative glory was endowed upon Adam and Eve in the Fall.

Wow.  I'm going to have to give this one quite a bit of thought.
I have often stated I believe our journey through this life where we are to "consider ourselves as if we were Adam and Eve" is more than symbolic.  And that our endowments continue when we leave the temple.
This idea totally just expanded my thoughts along this line.

THANKS!

  • Like 1
Link to post
55 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, He forbade them to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil – yet made them to seek wisdom and did not forbid them to seek wisdom.  Some motives, intentions and pursuits in partaking of the forbidden fruit (e.g., satisfy curiosity, enjoy its sweetness, etc.) were less acceptable than seeking wisdom, which could only come by way of experiencing loss and sacrifice. He forbade them until they arrived at this point, and after they partook, there was no further need to forbid them or their offspring to partake. They could articulate this in hindsight, after the angel explained the plan of salvation to them after many days of animal sacrifice.

I use “paradisiacal physiology” for working=model purposes; it is in some ways literal/physical and others figurative/spiritual. I’m thinking in terms of our bodies being quickened by the glory of our spirit which possesses them. While this is typically used to describe our glory in the resurrection, I think it can also apply to mortal life. For example, only a certain glory can enjoy the continuation of the seeds in the next life. I suppose a portion of the same glory is granted us in this life to procreate, which is why this power is so sacred. Adam and Eve could not attain this glory as paradisaical beings; this level of glory was commensurate with the wisdom that comes through loss, sacrifice, death, etc., which came to them through the Fall. Their mortal offspring inherit this glory.

So, I’m thinking something was “turned on” either/both physiologically and figuratively. Physiologically, some change in their bodies was turned on, as Brigham Young taught. When we receive our endowments or sealings, the higher covenant is turned on and children are born in the covenant. The laws of this world are broken when we make celestial covenants in the temple, just as paradisiacal laws were broken when the procreative glory was endowed upon Adam and Eve in the Fall.

In what sense do you mean "broken"?  As in not binding on us?  That instead we are bound/committed to obeying only the higher laws of God?

The glory of God is intelligence so anytime I see the word glory when referring to things of God I substitute the word intelligence for glory.  Nice to think our level of intelligence gets passed down to our children but it doesn't seem to always work that way.

Link to post
1 minute ago, Ahab said:

The glory of God is intelligence so anytime I see the word glory when referring to things of God I substitute the word intelligence for glory.  Nice to think our level of intelligence gets passed down to our children but it doesn't seem to always work that way.

Except in scripture we are literally referred to as "Intelligences" in premortality.   When God says his glory is intelligence he isn't only referring to how much he knows.
He's also referring to his posterity, which he also describes as his work and his glory.

Link to post
2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Except in scripture we are literally referred to as "Intelligences" in premortality.   When God says his glory is intelligence he isn't only referring to how much he knows.
He's also referring to his posterity, which he also describes as his work and his glory.

We are intelligences in the sense of how much we know and understand of what is and/or was and/or will be.  Glory is intelligence while intelligence is light and truth, as thus saith the Lord in those scriptures.

Link to post
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I'm not so sure it was a dreadful choice, but a healthy, built-in tendency that they were not commanded to resist. For brevity, see these prior posts: Posted 1 hour ago & Posted just now

Satan was just acting on his cultivated tendencies, whether he was aware of their tendency to seek wisdom or not.

I was referring to Lucifer's dreadful choices.

Link to post
59 minutes ago, Ahab said:

In what sense do you mean "broken"?  As in not binding on us?  That instead we are bound/committed to obeying only the higher laws of God?

The glory of God is intelligence so anytime I see the word glory when referring to things of God I substitute the word intelligence for glory.  Nice to think our level of intelligence gets passed down to our children but it doesn't seem to always work that way.

I look at it this way: The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. There are many kinds of intelligence, light and truth, all of which are ultimately governed by keys. The keys of procreation were turned for Adam and Eve and their posterity after the Fall. The keys of familial sealing were turned in the Restoration for us and our ancestors as we do temple work. What gets passed down in families physically, adoptively, traditionally and “covenantally” become more similar and godlike as the gospel spreads in this dispensation. The keys of the continuation of the seeds and the lives will again be turned for the eligible in the resurrection.

I think "not binding" or "unbound" is as good as term as any; "negated," "replaced," "subsumed," "transgressed" are other appropriate synonyms.

  • Like 1
Link to post
51 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I was referring to Lucifer's dreadful choices.

I see -- thank you. I think the devil does continue to choose, but his satisfaction comes from getting darker and darker than from getting brighter and brighter. Some find a sense of security in that kind of progression, and do not have to worry about being alone, which may be the higher priority than sharing glory. In his case, "misery loves company" not because company is comforting, but because misery is self-justifying.

Edited by CV75
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
7 hours ago, CV75 said:

I see -- thank you. I think the devil does continue to choose, but his satisfaction comes from getting darker and darker than from getting brighter and brighter. Some find a sense of security in that kind of progression, and do not have to worry about being alone, which may be the higher priority than sharing glory. In his case, "misery loves company" not because company is comforting, but because misery is self-justifying.

As I said earlier, the Lucifer archetype seems too convenient, in my opinion, like a boogeyman emphasized and/or constructed to scare people into obedience. To me, there is ample reason to choose good based on the merits of goodness alone. But the warning of "Satan will be able to tempt you more easily" to do evil when you transgress the law seems manipulative. It seems like a way to get people to obey out of fear rather than out of love for goodness itself.

Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...