bluebell Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I think more non LDS married people think they're going to be together than LDS people do! Our religion has put so much emphasis on the subject that it's ingrained that if a family member strays or doesn't get married in the temple they won't be with their eternal family. They'll be in another heaven. That is the most damaging. This is good point. In a lot of ways we have a higher expectation for what being in Heaven with God will entail, and those high expectations certainly raise the bar for receiving those blessings. Most of the good people that I know who aren't religious but still believe in God believe they are going to heaven, as long as they don't do anything really bad like murder or rape or child abuse. Really, those seem to be the main things that a lot of non-religious theists believe God cares about and where He draws the line. They've set the bar really low and their beliefs about who will be in heaven match.
bluebell Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Calm said: Apparently Swedenborgian churches do. Some have claimed Joseph Smith got some of his ideas from Swedenborg, btw. https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/63044/which-denominations-believe-in-eternal-marriage Someone else on that thread claims the Eastern Orthodox do, will check. That's so interesting. We were listening to the BYU channel on sirius xm in november and the way home from wyoming on a sunday and they have a program where they interview people of different faiths (I can't' remember the name but it is EXCELLENT) and they were interviewing a woman pastor from a Swedenborg church in Boston. She did not bring up this teaching, but it was really interesting to learn more about the religion from her perspective. I had never heard of it before.
Calm Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 Quote According to Christ, in order for the love of a man and woman to be that which God has: perfectly created it to be, it must be unique, indestructible, unending and divine. The Lord himself has not only given this teaching, but he also gives the power to fulfill it in the sacrament of Christian marriage in the Church. In the sacrament of marriage, a man and a woman are given the possibility to become one spirit and one flesh in a way which no human love can provide by itself. In Christian marriage the Holy Spirit is given so that what is begun on earth does not “part in death” but is fulfilled and continues most perfectly in the Kingdom of God https://stgeorgegreenville.org/our-faith/marriage/ 1
Duncan Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 I recall hearing a comedian saying they visited Temple Square and was told we get sealed in temples and if we endure we can be together with our family forever and they said, "what happens if you are good?"😊🤣 1
Rain Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 44 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'm sure we do misrepresent beliefs sometimes. We certainly do it in regards to the Trinity. But I've asked quite a few non-members about their beliefs concerning marriage and family relationships after death and without exception they have all told me that they will not be married to their spouse and will not be a parent or grandparent to their children and grandchildren after death. They will know them and love them, but it will be a brotherly or sisterly relationship, the kind that you have with your fellow church members in a congregation. That certainly doesn't mean that there aren't religions or denominations out there that do believe marriage and familial bonds will still exist after death, I just haven't heard it. That's generally what I have found too. Not all I have talked with, but many. Some have even told me they won't even recognize each other. That this brotherly/sisterly idea is more a view of their relationship to God and their relationship just flows from that rather than to each other really. 1
bluebell Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Rain said: That's generally what I have found too. Not all I have talked with, but many. Some have even told me they won't even recognize each other. That this brotherly/sisterly idea is more a view of their relationship to God and their relationship just flows from that rather than to each other really. I've heard that as well. To me it's a heartbreaking doctrine but the people that I've discussed it with didn't seem to be bothered by it. 2
pogi Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 (edited) Here are a few interesting Bible Commentaries on Matt 22:30, that might help give some insight into how others might view it. Quote Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (30) They neither marry, nor are given in marriage.--In St. Luke's report (Luke 20:34-35) our Lord emphasises the contrast in this respect between the children of this world and the children of the resurrection. His words teach absolutely the absence from the resurrection life of the definite relations on which marriage rests in this, and they suggest an answer to the yearning questions which rise up in our minds as we ponder on the things behind the veil. Will there, we ask, be no continuance there of the holiest of the ties of earth? Will the husband and the wife, who have loved each other until death parted them, be no more to each other than any others who are counted worthy to obtain that life? Will there be no individual recognition, no continuance of the love founded upon the memories of the past? The answer to all such questionings is found in dwelling on the "power of God." The old relations may subsist under new conditions. Things that are incompatible here may there be found to co-exist. The saintly wife of two saintly husbands may love both with an angelic, and therefore a pure and unimpaired affection. The contrast between our Lord's teaching and the sensual paradise of Mahomet, or Swedenborg's dream of the marriage state perpetuated under its earthly conditions, is so obvious as hardly to call for notice. Quote Pulpit Commentary Verse 30. - For. The Lord proceeds first to show the power of God as displayed in the resurrection. The Sadducees would limit and control this power by conceiving that it could not change the qualities of the body or alter the conditions and relations of the human consciousness. In the resurrection (see on ver. 28). Marry; as men. Are given in marriage; as women. Marriage is an earthly relationship, and can have no place in a spiritual condition. All that is of the earth, all that is carnal and gross, all human passions, all that is connected with sin and corruption, shall pass away. The risen life is no mere reproduction of the present, but a regeneration, new life added to the old, with new powers, acting under new laws, ranged in a new community. On earth men are mortal, and marriage is necessary to perpetuate the race; no such necessity obtains in the other life, where men are immortal. As an old Father says, "Where the law of death is abolished, the cause of birth is abolished likewise." Are as the angels of God in heaven; i.e. as the angels who dwell in heaven. The words, τοῦ Θεοῦ, of God, are omitted by some manuscripts and editors. The Vulgate has, angeli Dei in coelo. Thus Christ, in opposition to the Saddueces' creed, admits the existence of angels. Glorified men are like the angels in these characteristics especially. They are immortal, no longer subject to human wants, passions, failings, or temptations; they serve God perfectly without weariness or distraction; they have no conflict between flesh and spirit, between the old nature and the new; their life is peaceful, harmonious, satisfying. Our Lord says nothing here concerning mutual recognition in the future state; nothing about the continuance of those tender relations which he sanctions and blesses on earth, and in the absence of which we cannot imagine perfect happiness existing. Analogy supplies some answer to such questions, but they are foreign to Christ's statement, and need not be here discussed. https://biblehub.com/matthew/22-30.htm Clearly, they believe that marriage will not exist, but where the scriptures are unclear on the subject of enduring relationships beyond the grave, it appears that some "cannot imagine" such an existence and chose to believe that "the power of God" will allow for such relations to subsist "under new conditions". One thing that clearly separates our doctrines from the Pulpit commentary (and probably all religions) is that we believe in procreation after death in the celestial world. This is what separates the God's from the angels and makes deification possible according to our doctrines. The Pulpit Commentary seems to suggest that sex will not exist in the after life and seems to equate sex with things that are "carnal and gross" - nothing more than a "human passion" connected with "sin and corruption" which "shall pass away". I think that is an unfortunate and unhealthy perspective on what is perhaps the most Godlike and sacred power that we are blessed with - the power to procreate and co-create with God. While they choose to believe that relations may continue after death with no passion or physical intimacy, but as ministering angels, what sets us apart is that we will be bonded as "FAMILY" in every sense of the word that exists now but multiplied with celestial glory. We will not merely be acquaintances with no physical bond or family. But we will make our own home on an eternal scale. We will be creators with God because we will be "parents" in the real familial sense with spouse/s, brother, sister, child, etc. in a way that links us all as ONE with God - in every sense of the word via the at-one-ment. Interestingly, the Ellicott's Commentary was daring enough to address polyandry-like relations in heaven. Edited December 31, 2020 by pogi 1
Calm Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 I have been searching on “eternal marriage” as “marriage after death” isn’t specific enough. The majority of them are LDS references, but there have been some non like I posted above. Here is a link to a study about youths’ attitudes towards marriage. I believe it is studying the Catholic view as the researcher prefers “indissoluble”, but the study actually asks the question ‘how much do you agree with the statement “marriage is forever”, which is, I believe, a different nuance. There was a significant minority of youth who did. Interesting given the location, Italy. http://epc2020.popconf.org/uploads/200846 1
Calm Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 Unfortunately she doesn’t give references: Quote Most Protestant commentators since the Reformation have not been comfortable going that far. However, there is an earlier strand of interpretation, from the first centuries of the church, that some find intriguing. It suggests that there is a special meaning to the marriage bond that continues in heaven, though we can't know what it will be like. It is based on Paul's description of marriage in Ephesians 5:21-33, which concludes: "This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church." https://www.todayschristianwoman.com/articles/2003/july/17.18.html 1
Calm Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 Quote Saint John Chrysostom—who has the ecclesiastical trifecta of being a saint, Church Father, and Church Doctor—sought to address this question almost seventeen centuries ago. A friend of John’s had lost her husband after only five, but very happy, years of marriage. To console her, John wrote her a letter, which is known to history as “Letter to a Young Widow.” Chrysostom begins by assuring her that God wills her to see her husband again in Heaven, and that she must remain steadfast in her faith so that she may achieve this destiny. He writes: “But if you wish to behold him face to face…do your best to manifest a life like his, and then assuredly you shall depart one day to join the same company with him, not to dwell with him for five years as you did here, nor for 20, or 100, nor for a thousand or twice that number but for infinite and endless ages.” Beautiful words, for sure, but doesn’t this contradict Our Lord’s teaching? When I hear others analyzing this Scriptural passage, I am often surprised how much weight they give to the first clause (“they neither marry…”) and how little attention they pay to the second (“…like angels in heaven.”). While the primary purpose of marriage of fruitful multiplication no longer applies in Heaven, our Lord’s answer in no way precludes the friendship of marriage from enduring. And if this is the case, it endures no longer in its fallen and flawed form; it is now like that of the angels. The angels in Heaven have a friendship—a spiritual love and intimacy for each other borne of the presence of God—that we humans on Earth cannot fathom. And it is endless. “Goodbye” is a word never uttered in Heaven. Saint John goes on to counsel the young widow to store up her treasures in Heaven, and that her husband is a treasure. He writes: “Send away your possessions to that good husband of yours and neither thief, nor schemer, nor any other destructive thing will be able to pounce upon them. … And if you do this, see what blessings you will enjoy, in the first place eternal life and the things promised to those who love God…, and in the second place perpetual connection with your good husband…” Saint John concludes his letter: “Wherefore desisting from mourning and lamentation do thou hold on to the same way of life as his, yea even let it be more exact, that having speedily attained an equal standard of virtue with him, you may inhabit the same abode and be united to him again through the everlasting ages, not in this union of marriage but another far better. For this is only a bodily kind of intercourse, but then there will be a union of soul with soul more perfect, and of a far more delightful and far nobler kind.” https://www.ncregister.com/blog/is-there-marriage-in-heaven?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ncrtraffic&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9Z7-tNX47QIVZVXVCh3kjA2NEAMYASAAEgKBQfD_BwE 2
Calm Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 35 minutes ago, bluebell said: That's so interesting. We were listening to the BYU channel on sirius xm in november and the way home from wyoming on a sunday and they have a program where they interview people of different faiths (I can't' remember the name but it is EXCELLENT) and they were interviewing a woman pastor from a Swedenborg church in Boston. She did not bring up this teaching, but it was really interesting to learn more about the religion from her perspective. I had never heard of it before. Some more info here... https://swedenborg.com/married-couples-in-the-afterlife/ Quote Swedenborg describes seeing married couples reunited after death. But did they stay together eternally? Well . . . maybe: It often happens that married partners meet [in the afterlife] and welcome each other joyfully. They stay together as well, but for a longer or shorter time depending on how happily they had lived together in the world. Ultimately, unless they had been united by real marriage love (which is a union of minds from heavenly love), they separate after having been together for a while. (Heaven and Hell 494) This is where Swedenborg departs from the popular view of love in the afterlife: he says that if two people who were together in life weren’t really in love, then they won’t be together in heaven either. Swedenborg describes incompatible couples as gradually growing farther and farther apart. Each is attracted to people with whom they have more in common: “Like are drawn toward like.” However, if two people are truly in love, they will grow closer to each other in heaven. If people in the afterlife find themselves incompatible with their former partners, or if they never experienced that kind of deep love while on earth, Swedenborg says, they can find their match in heaven: Throughout heaven, people who are similar gather together and people who are dissimilar part company. This means that every community consists of like-minded people. Like are drawn toward like not by their own will but by the Lord. In the same way, spouse is drawn toward spouse when their minds can be united into one. So at first sight they love each other most deeply, see each other as married partners, and enter into their marriage. This is why all of heaven’s marriages are the work of the Lord alone. (Heaven and Hell 383) 1
Calm Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 33 minutes ago, bluebell said: To me it's a heartbreaking doctrine but the people that I've discussed it with didn't seem to be bothered by it. I just read one possible reason they don’t feel bad about that and that is if they don’t recognize who is there, they don’t recognize who is not there...which recognition to them would be truly heartbreaking. It makes sense in one way, but also doesn’t work on a different level as that would mean they could be unhappy about God’s judgment. 1
bluebell Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, Calm said: https://www.ncregister.com/blog/is-there-marriage-in-heaven?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ncrtraffic&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9Z7-tNX47QIVZVXVCh3kjA2NEAMYASAAEgKBQfD_BwE So it sounds like married people will have the same relationship with their spouse as with someone they were never married to, in heaven. That all relationships there are the same because they are born out of a spiritual love and intimacy shaped by the presence of God. Is that how you are reading this part?-- Beautiful words, for sure, but doesn’t this contradict Our Lord’s teaching? When I hear others analyzing this Scriptural passage, I am often surprised how much weight they give to the first clause (“they neither marry…”) and how little attention they pay to the second (“…like angels in heaven.”). While the primary purpose of marriage of fruitful multiplication no longer applies in Heaven, our Lord’s answer in no way precludes the friendship of marriage from enduring. And if this is the case, it endures no longer in its fallen and flawed form; it is now like that of the angels. The angels in Heaven have a friendship—a spiritual love and intimacy for each other borne of the presence of God—that we humans on Earth cannot fathom. And it is endless. “Goodbye” is a word never uttered in Heaven. 1
Ahab Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 7 hours ago, Thinking said: "Until death do you part." That phrase that is part of so many marriage ceremonies may not mean what many LDS claim it means (shameless PB paraphrase). I've been to enough non-LDS funerals to know that many people believe they will be reunited with their loved ones in heaven in the next life. Even yesterday on Facebook one of my friends (non-LDS) announced the passing of his pet cat and talked about how he looked forward to reuniting with his beloved pet in heaven. Back to "Until death do you part." Here is just one of the many examples of a Church leader explaining that it means the marriage ends with death. I was once at a non-LDS wedding and the pastor explained that once married the couple was to spend time together and not look for reasons to be apart. Of course there will be things that the couple may not do together. The husband may participate in recreational basketball or the wife may like to participate in local theater. The pastor warned about finding too many things that would keep the husband and wife from spending time together. Only death would separate them...temporarily. I realized at that wedding ceremony that the people who used that phrase as part of the marriage ceremony were not using it to end or cancel the marriage. It was an admonition to be together until one of them dies. In heaven, when both have passed from this mortal life, there will be a glorious reunion, and there may even be some pets. What individual members of a Church teach and what a committee of members of a Church teach are not always in agreement, so when you want to know what the individual members of a Church teach, just ask them. From what I have learned from my own experience with members of other churches I can tell you that none of them have told me they believe they will continue their marriage union(s) in heaven. They have all told me that they will have what (to them in their state of mind) is something better, which is essentially a glorified brother/sister relationship with everyone in (their concept of) heaven. Even my own parents have told me they believe they will not be together anymore as married partners in heaven, but will instead be only as brother and sister. And I did try to tell them they could still be married in heaven if they wanted to be, if they would do what was necessary to prepare themselves for that, but they all think that is a false concept of what life will be like (for them) in heaven. My Dad and Mom divorced when I was young and my Dad remarried after that but all 3 of them feel the same way about marriage in heaven, that it will not continue. And according to what we (LDS) know and teach, it will not continue for them unless they do what is necessary to be sealed together forever. So in my experience I have found that what we teach is exactly what others are expecting in their own concept of heaven.
InCognitus Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 When discussing the topic of eternal marriage with members of other Christian faiths, I've encountered a few who take the "there is neither male nor female" statement of Galatians 3:28 quite literally, and they say that verse indicates the nature of beings in heaven. Others, who don't believe in a physical resurrection (and I'm always surprised at how many people believe that way) would say that spiritual beings don't have body parts, and therefore marriage as we know it now is meaningless in the afterlife. It all depends on who you talk to of course, as there are many "winds of doctrines". And as we know from the various viewpoints from LDS members on this board, even differences of opinions within faiths. 4
MiserereNobis Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 I have a few questions to begin with. First, what does it mean to be married vs. not married in heaven? If a couple were married on earth, but aren't sealed, what will be their state be in one of the kingdoms? Will they recognize each other but be forcibly kept apart? (What kind of heaven/degree of glory is that, honestly... that sounds like hell.) Or if they are allowed to be in each other's presence (what does that mean in heaven, anyway), what does not being married mean? That they can't keep a house together or have sex? What do married people get to do in heaven that non-married don't, and why can't non-married choose to do those things? I think before you analyze and criticize other Christian faiths' views on familial relationships in heaven, you should clarify your own beyond the very abstract: if you're sealed you're together, if you're not you're not. Now, for my view, I take it on faith that heaven will be exactly perfect. As the Catechism teaches: Quote 1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness. It wouldn't be heaven if I was pining away after my friends and family. That's not supreme happiness. So, whatever the state of familial (and other) relationships in heaven, it will be perfect. I will either be with them, or it won't matter, or some other arrangement that I am not aware of or even cannot conceive of. The Catechism continues: Quote 1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him." We don't know, cannot know in this current state, how wonderful and perfect it will be. I have faith in a God who will offer supreme happiness to those who love and follow Him. The details are beyond us now. 4
Ahab Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I have a few questions to begin with. First, what does it mean to be married vs. not married in heaven? If a couple were married on earth, but aren't sealed, what will be their state be in one of the kingdoms? Will they recognize each other but be forcibly kept apart? (What kind of heaven/degree of glory is that, honestly... that sounds like hell.) Or if they are allowed to be in each other's presence (what does that mean in heaven, anyway), what does not being married mean? That they can't keep a house together or have sex? What do married people get to do in heaven that non-married don't, and why can't non-married choose to do those things? The marriage union/relationship is all about sexual relations or at least the authorization/approval to have sexual relations with each person in that marriage relationship. For example, if a marriage relationship is authorized/approved for a man named Bob and another man named Bob, then someone has decided that Bob and Bob are authorized/approved to have a sexual union/relationship with each other. Note that a 3rd party is considered essential to authorize/approve a sexual union/relationship between those other people... either God or someone with secular approval/authorization to approve/authorize it. So if people take it upon themselves to just have sexual unions/relationships with other people, without any approval/authorization from a 3rd party to do that, they are doing so without that 3rd party's approval/authorization. And God does not approve of anyone doing anything that he does not approve of or authorize. God approves/authorizes only what he approves/authorizes. 8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I think before you analyze and criticize other Christian faiths' views on familial relationships in heaven, you should clarify your own beyond the very abstract: if you're sealed you're together, if you're not you're not. Now, for my view, I take it on faith that heaven will be exactly perfect. As the Catechism teaches: It wouldn't be heaven if I was pining away after my friends and family. That's not supreme happiness. So, whatever the state of familial (and other) relationships in heaven, it will be perfect. I will either be with them, or it won't matter, or some other arrangement that I am not aware of or even cannot conceive of. The Catechism continues: We don't know, cannot know in this current state, how wonderful and perfect it will be. I have faith in a God who will offer supreme happiness to those who love and follow Him. The details are beyond us now. You can believe whatever you want to believe whether or not God approves of what you believe. God approves of each of us making our own decisions, what we often refer to as agency. But that doesn't mean God approves of whatever we choose to believe.
Calm Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 2 hours ago, bluebell said: Is that how you are reading this part?-- Yes, the perfect companionship I would call it as that takes it to a different level then friends, imo. 1
The Nehor Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: The marriage union/relationship is all about sexual relations or at least the authorization/approval to have sexual relations with each person in that marriage relationship. For example, if a marriage relationship is authorized/approved for a man named Bob and another man named Bob, then someone has decided that Bob and Bob are authorized/approved to have a sexual union/relationship with each other. Note that a 3rd party is considered essential to authorize/approve a sexual union/relationship between those other people... either God or someone with secular approval/authorization to approve/authorize it. So if people take it upon themselves to just have sexual unions/relationships with other people, without any approval/authorization from a 3rd party to do that, they are doing so without that 3rd party's approval/authorization. And God does not approve of anyone doing anything that he does not approve of or authorize. God approves/authorizes only what he approves/authorizes. This is not historically how marriage has always worked or how it works now worldwide. Your reduction of marriage to being primarily about sex is also not accurate. While that is important it is also vital for making sure you have legitimate offspring to inherit your lands and titles and to make sure you have children who can avenge your death if needed. 2
Peacefully Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Thinking said: "Until death do you part." That phrase that is part of so many marriage ceremonies may not mean what many LDS claim it means (shameless PB paraphrase). I've been to enough non-LDS funerals to know that many people believe they will be reunited with their loved ones in heaven in the next life. Even yesterday on Facebook one of my friends (non-LDS) announced the passing of his pet cat and talked about how he looked forward to reuniting with his beloved pet in heaven. Back to "Until death do you part." Here is just one of the many examples of a Church leader explaining that it means the marriage ends with death. I was once at a non-LDS wedding and the pastor explained that once married the couple was to spend time together and not look for reasons to be apart. Of course there will be things that the couple may not do together. The husband may participate in recreational basketball or the wife may like to participate in local theater. The pastor warned about finding too many things that would keep the husband and wife from spending time together. Only death would separate them...temporarily. I realized at that wedding ceremony that the people who used that phrase as part of the marriage ceremony were not using it to end or cancel the marriage. It was an admonition to be together until one of them dies. In heaven, when both have passed from this mortal life, there will be a glorious reunion, and there may even be some pets. I grew up in the Church of Christ and we were taught that marriage ended at death. In fact, we were taught that there would be no familial relations in Heaven. I think TeddyAWare is correct about one of the scriptures this doctrine is based on. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22)It was difficult for me to comprehend how anything could be called Heaven without retaining those family bonds. The teachings about eternal families rang true for me, and this was the main thing that attracted me to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Edited December 31, 2020 by Peacefully 2
The Nehor Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: I have a few questions to begin with. First, what does it mean to be married vs. not married in heaven? If a couple were married on earth, but aren't sealed, what will be their state be in one of the kingdoms? Will they recognize each other but be forcibly kept apart? (What kind of heaven/degree of glory is that, honestly... that sounds like hell.) Or if they are allowed to be in each other's presence (what does that mean in heaven, anyway), what does not being married mean? That they can't keep a house together or have sex? What do married people get to do in heaven that non-married don't, and why can't non-married choose to do those things? Disclaimer: This is the gospel according to me. A fulfilled marriage is a divine union, not in the sense that it is sanctioned by God, but because it leads the two (or more?) parties to becoming a God in their unity. 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: The details are beyond us now. This too. 2
Ahab Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: This is not historically how marriage has always worked or how it works now worldwide. Your reduction of marriage to being primarily about sex is also not accurate. While that is important it is also vital for making sure you have legitimate offspring to inherit your lands and titles and to make sure you have children who can avenge your death if needed. Okay, I can now see that and will now say that marriage is primarily about getting 3rd party approval/authorization to have a sexual union/relationship with some other person. Anyone can hire someone to do something if they can pay enough money.
The Nehor Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: Okay, I can now see that and will now say that marriage is primarily about getting 3rd party approval/authorization to have a sexual union/relationship with some other person. Anyone can hire someone to do something if they can pay enough money. In ancient Greece and Rome you basically just acknowledged you were married and it was done. No third party. Common law marriage was historically similar. There has been a recent rise in self-solemnizing marriages lately with no one officiating. 3
Ahab Posted December 31, 2020 Posted December 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: In ancient Greece and Rome you basically just acknowledged you were married and it was done. No third party. Common law marriage was historically similar. Common law marriage works when it works only because some 3rd party has made it that way with that common law. I don't know much about Greek or Roman laws but suspect it worked the same way, only because the government leaders approved/authorized that it work that way. 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: There has been a recent rise in self-solemnizing marriages lately with no one officiating. In what country or kingdom? And who is allowing/approving/authorizing that it work that way in that country or kingdom?
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